AHHAHAHA help with wilcox-gay recordio
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- buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
AHHAHAHA help with wilcox-gay recordio
hi,
I just got my first lathe, of course, it doesnt work.
I kinda expected it, since it the ebay seller "wasnt able to test it"
Here are the symtoms:
I found 2 tubes rolling around inside,they look ok.
It makes a loud humming sound
The turntable doesnt turn.
I opened it to see what was rolling around ,I just put the 2 tubes in the only 2 empty places that I found for tubes, Still no turning ,humm still there.I swiched the tubes ,same result.
I took the mic out and tried another input from computer, It worked,but was quiet, much quieter then the loud ass humm.
I could take it to a record repair shop guy he could probaly get the turntable going.
But I was wondering what happens inside the machine, that is between the input and the cutting needle, Could I just attach an amp to the cutter arm and use another turntable?
any tips?
thanks
Theo
I just got my first lathe, of course, it doesnt work.
I kinda expected it, since it the ebay seller "wasnt able to test it"
Here are the symtoms:
I found 2 tubes rolling around inside,they look ok.
It makes a loud humming sound
The turntable doesnt turn.
I opened it to see what was rolling around ,I just put the 2 tubes in the only 2 empty places that I found for tubes, Still no turning ,humm still there.I swiched the tubes ,same result.
I took the mic out and tried another input from computer, It worked,but was quiet, much quieter then the loud ass humm.
I could take it to a record repair shop guy he could probaly get the turntable going.
But I was wondering what happens inside the machine, that is between the input and the cutting needle, Could I just attach an amp to the cutter arm and use another turntable?
any tips?
thanks
Theo
- cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
where to start????
I'm not even sure where to go with a reply to this but I will try...
hi,
I just got my first lathe, of course, it doesnt work.
I kinda expected it, since it the ebay seller "wasnt able to test it"
Here are the symtoms:
I found 2 tubes rolling around inside,they look ok.
What model Wilcox-Gay is it?, does it have a radio?, or better yet , what are the tube numbers and how many total?
Sometimes there is a little diagram on the inside that shows where the tubes go. Match the tube socket with the number on the tube. Sometimes the sockets have markings with the number by the socket.
It makes a loud humming sound
Probably bad capacitors although you did say that it didn't hum when unplugged the microphone.
A little more logical troubleshooting about the hum... does it do it only after it warms up for a few seconds or right when you turn it on? Does it hum only when you turn the volume up or with it all the way down? If it pretty much hums from the speaker in all circumstances it probably has bad filter capacitors. If not, then perhaps jut a bad ground on the mic cord??? If it has a radio, does that play?
The turntable doesnt turn.
There is typically a switch for the turntable motor. With the whole thing turned on and the turntable switch on, and the turntable removed, does the motor itself try to turn? If yes then the problem is with the drive, if no, then the motor may not be getting juce or it may need to be cleaned and re-lubricated.
I opened it to see what was rolling around ,I just put the 2 tubes in the only 2 empty places that I found for tubes, Still no turning ,humm still there.I swiched the tubes ,same result.
I took the mic out and tried another input from computer, It worked,but was quiet, much quieter then the loud ass humm.
I could take it to a record repair shop guy he could probaly get the turntable going.
But I was wondering what happens inside the machine, that is between the input and the cutting needle,
Most Wilcox-Gay Recordios were simple 5 tube radio chassis with an extra microphone and a phonograph input and output with switching to drive the cutter, instead of the speaker, via another transformer tap.
So there are only a couple of amplification stages between the mic and the cutter or the pickup and the speaker. As analog electronics go, pretty simple. The main problems are typically bad capacitors and dirty pots and switches. Perhaps a weak tube or two...
Could I just attach an amp to the cutter arm and use another turntable?
any tips?
The turntable drives the cutter across the record by a leadscrew on the bottom , so it's pretty much a main part of the system.
You could attach another amp to the cutter but see my comments yesterday regarding driving crystal cutters.
hi,
I just got my first lathe, of course, it doesnt work.
I kinda expected it, since it the ebay seller "wasnt able to test it"
Here are the symtoms:
I found 2 tubes rolling around inside,they look ok.
What model Wilcox-Gay is it?, does it have a radio?, or better yet , what are the tube numbers and how many total?
Sometimes there is a little diagram on the inside that shows where the tubes go. Match the tube socket with the number on the tube. Sometimes the sockets have markings with the number by the socket.
It makes a loud humming sound
Probably bad capacitors although you did say that it didn't hum when unplugged the microphone.
A little more logical troubleshooting about the hum... does it do it only after it warms up for a few seconds or right when you turn it on? Does it hum only when you turn the volume up or with it all the way down? If it pretty much hums from the speaker in all circumstances it probably has bad filter capacitors. If not, then perhaps jut a bad ground on the mic cord??? If it has a radio, does that play?
The turntable doesnt turn.
There is typically a switch for the turntable motor. With the whole thing turned on and the turntable switch on, and the turntable removed, does the motor itself try to turn? If yes then the problem is with the drive, if no, then the motor may not be getting juce or it may need to be cleaned and re-lubricated.
I opened it to see what was rolling around ,I just put the 2 tubes in the only 2 empty places that I found for tubes, Still no turning ,humm still there.I swiched the tubes ,same result.
I took the mic out and tried another input from computer, It worked,but was quiet, much quieter then the loud ass humm.
I could take it to a record repair shop guy he could probaly get the turntable going.
But I was wondering what happens inside the machine, that is between the input and the cutting needle,
Most Wilcox-Gay Recordios were simple 5 tube radio chassis with an extra microphone and a phonograph input and output with switching to drive the cutter, instead of the speaker, via another transformer tap.
So there are only a couple of amplification stages between the mic and the cutter or the pickup and the speaker. As analog electronics go, pretty simple. The main problems are typically bad capacitors and dirty pots and switches. Perhaps a weak tube or two...
Could I just attach an amp to the cutter arm and use another turntable?
any tips?
The turntable drives the cutter across the record by a leadscrew on the bottom , so it's pretty much a main part of the system.
You could attach another amp to the cutter but see my comments yesterday regarding driving crystal cutters.
I hope you got it very cheap. Anytime you see a vintage piece of electronics on ebay where the seller says, unable to test, or whatever, you know that somebody just died and it just got pulled it out of an attic, basement, garage, or barn and its been sitting there for 30 or more years. Such a piece needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, and that means every nut and bolt. The amplifier needs to be completely recapped, and that means replacing every electrolytic and wax paper tubular capacitor. I usually replace most of the carbon resistors too, since many of them will be out of tolerance. Most inexperienced rebuilders assume that the tubes are causing all the problems. Actually, they are probably the most durable component of a vintage piece of electronics. Chances are they are good. Test them on a good mutual conductance tube tester if you can. The turntable mechanism should be completely disassembled and thoroughly degreased, any corrosion removed as necessary, and carefully reassembled with proper lubrication where it needs it. Any rubber idler wheels will need to be rebuilt with new rubber.
If you decide you can cut corners on this restoration work, then don't expect to have a unit that performs as good as it did when it left the factory. If you don't feel up to doing the restoration work yourself, then expect to pay someone else $300 - $500 or so to do it for you.
Welcome to the world of antique electronics!
Tom
If you decide you can cut corners on this restoration work, then don't expect to have a unit that performs as good as it did when it left the factory. If you don't feel up to doing the restoration work yourself, then expect to pay someone else $300 - $500 or so to do it for you.
Welcome to the world of antique electronics!
Tom
- buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
t
thanks a lot 4 the repys,I know im a beginer.
But ,I figured out where the hum was coming from,the turn tabe motor, it was so jiggled around that it was not sitting corectly on the other wheel that makes it turn. Yes the turntable works now.
But the input is very quiet,with mic or other input ,the radio doesnt pick up anything ,but seems to make some sound. the input sound is quiet and distorted.
no worries it cost about 30 bucks plus shipping.
damn 200-300bucks. I think I saw a presto on ebay for cheaper.
best
theo
But ,I figured out where the hum was coming from,the turn tabe motor, it was so jiggled around that it was not sitting corectly on the other wheel that makes it turn. Yes the turntable works now.
But the input is very quiet,with mic or other input ,the radio doesnt pick up anything ,but seems to make some sound. the input sound is quiet and distorted.
no worries it cost about 30 bucks plus shipping.
damn 200-300bucks. I think I saw a presto on ebay for cheaper.
best
theo
- buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
more help
so,
I found the little digram inside and the tubes are in the right place.
there is no hum ,but the input is very very quiet.
The lead screw is often difficult to get working,the head/arm doesnt seem to latch on to it allways, when adjusting the hight of the arm it falls down to the lowest hight.
The tuntable turns, The radio seems to work but doesnt pick up anything.
all tests have resulted in no sound cut. Im using this saffire cutter that says on the outside record cutter.
I found the little digram inside and the tubes are in the right place.
there is no hum ,but the input is very very quiet.
The lead screw is often difficult to get working,the head/arm doesnt seem to latch on to it allways, when adjusting the hight of the arm it falls down to the lowest hight.
The tuntable turns, The radio seems to work but doesnt pick up anything.
all tests have resulted in no sound cut. Im using this saffire cutter that says on the outside record cutter.
- cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
recordio issues
Sounds like multiple problems still. As the other guy said, welcome to the world of antique electronics. What model is it? Does it have one combined record play arm or two? If one, the arm is supposed to pull up at the back once you have it over the edge of the biggest disc it will record and then it will engage the leadscrew. Attempting to pull it up first or only part way, will result in it not engaging or falling back to the playback position. Regarding playback, have you tried switching it over and at least scratching your finger across the needle to see if you get sound ? If that does not work, then either the cartridge is bad or you have some issue still with the electronics. Touching the wires to the playback cartridge should at least produce a hum with the volume turned up. If that is the case, the pickup is bad. If the pickup is the recording head (single arm model) it won't cut either. Off to west-tech to rebuild. Somewhere between where you are and replacing every capacitor and resistor, not to mention rubber drive parts and motor mounts in the thing, you will get it working. Did you say you EVER heard ANYTHING like an amplified signal from the speaker? Does the radio have an antenna built in and hooked up???
- buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
newbie update
I cant seem to find a model number on it.
here are some pics
It has one arm. I will do that test next,havent tried it so far, it came with several other needles ,I think steel.
The radio attenna seems to be hooked up, but shows some wear, I heard some faint sounds from it.
Is there a source for vintage capacitors and resistors? like those paper compontents ect. Is there some documentation with a list of resitors ect. so I dont have to attempt to id everyone, or is that part of the fun?
I got the turntable work so why should I replace the rubber drive parts?
Thanks a lot for the help.
best,
Theo
Thanks a lot for the tips,
here are some pics
The input signal is very quiet If its amped, its not amplified very much, its very faint,so faint it compeates with the hum of the turntable rotating.Somewhere between where you are and replacing every capacitor and resistor, not to mention rubber drive parts and motor mounts in the thing, you will get it working. Did you say you EVER heard ANYTHING like an amplified signal from the speaker? Does the radio have an antenna built in and hooked up???
It has one arm. I will do that test next,havent tried it so far, it came with several other needles ,I think steel.
The radio attenna seems to be hooked up, but shows some wear, I heard some faint sounds from it.
Is there a source for vintage capacitors and resistors? like those paper compontents ect. Is there some documentation with a list of resitors ect. so I dont have to attempt to id everyone, or is that part of the fun?
I got the turntable work so why should I replace the rubber drive parts?
Thanks a lot for the help.
best,
Theo
Thanks a lot for the tips,
- cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
recordette
Ok, You have a Recordette. This has 1 arm which cuts and plays back. The same device is the playback cartridge and cutting head. I have a few examples of these. None of mine work right now for cutting.
BTW your quote was me quoting what the other guy said was necessary for a complete restoration. I was trying to say you probably didn't have to go that far. However, if you can't get the radio to play and when switched to normal phono playback mode you can't hear a hum as you touch the metal pins where the wires hook to the cartridge, then there are issues with the amplifier. If you do not hear any evidence of hum especially with the volume up or static as you turn the volume or input switch it is NOT WORKING. You need to find out wht is wrong. This would involve such things as trying to trace the signal through the amp from the input to the speaker. The tubes should be tested but are probably not as likely as a burned up resistor or leaky capacitor to be an issue. If you are not at the level of being able to figure out which components do what, it might be time for some pro. help. I do not have a schematic diagram for these, does anyone else??? If you have access to a capacitor tester and a tube tester you can always unsolder one end of each of the caps and test them with a type made for these old capacitors that tests them at higher tube voltages for leakage, and replace as necessary. Tubes, as was stated, should be checked on a mutual conductance tester. You can also just visually inspect for fried/burned/melted looking components and replace (if you can still make out the values). If the amp does exhibit some signs of life and does not hum loudly through the speaker at all times indicating bad filter capacitors, then perhaps the crystal cutter/cartridge is bad. That is what is wrong with most of the ones I have. Again -- WestTech. The fact that the radio does not work on yours still tells me that there probably is a problem with the actual electronics. When you get into these things you have to expect that most old equipment will not just work perfectly. Price paid and even physical apperance sometimes do not provide a reliable indication of how well it will work. I would say that what I have been saying and what the other reply to your post said, could be treated as a general guideline for any old radio phonograph type of thing. After all, at least at this level, a disc cutter is nothing more than an amplifier hooked to a cutter instead of a speaker, with some sort of radio or microphone input source. You just have to learn to understand what various symtoms are trying to tell you and troubleshoot logically from there. Does the mic work as a mic? Does the speaker work? Does the playback cartridge pass signal? Does the cutter produce vibration when fed an appropriate signal? Does the amplifier pass signal through it? If it does, does it work in all "modes" or just some? Granted, it is not easy for a novice (or even for some of us who just are not that good of technicians) but it can be done. Without a schematic it is even harder, but with basic circuit principals in mind, one can look up the tube base diagrams in a tube manual and figure out by what is connected to which pin, how the signal flows through. As I said in my first reply, the good news, especially with the sort of unit you have, is there is not much more electronics there than a standard old table radio. People still understand how to fix those. In fact, If you are in over your head, perhaps a local radio collector/repairman might be your next step for help. There are also some helpfull guidlines for troublshooting old phonographs on West-Tech's site. And last, about the turntable, just because it spins now does not make it ready to cut. I would be sure that the motor suspension grommets are not cracked hard broken or missing, as the motor will not be positioned to give adequate torque to the idler wheel and the turntable. Also the lubrication of the motor, the idler wheel, and the turntable itself should be checked, as well as the idler to make sure it it clean, has some give to it (not rock hard) and is not cracked or has a big flat spot. The turntable should run pretty quietly even at 78 rpm, not like a "cement mixer". Actually the leadscrew mechanism that drives off the platter should also be re-lubed and the screw itself and the part that rides on it to guide the arm should be lightly greased.
BTW your quote was me quoting what the other guy said was necessary for a complete restoration. I was trying to say you probably didn't have to go that far. However, if you can't get the radio to play and when switched to normal phono playback mode you can't hear a hum as you touch the metal pins where the wires hook to the cartridge, then there are issues with the amplifier. If you do not hear any evidence of hum especially with the volume up or static as you turn the volume or input switch it is NOT WORKING. You need to find out wht is wrong. This would involve such things as trying to trace the signal through the amp from the input to the speaker. The tubes should be tested but are probably not as likely as a burned up resistor or leaky capacitor to be an issue. If you are not at the level of being able to figure out which components do what, it might be time for some pro. help. I do not have a schematic diagram for these, does anyone else??? If you have access to a capacitor tester and a tube tester you can always unsolder one end of each of the caps and test them with a type made for these old capacitors that tests them at higher tube voltages for leakage, and replace as necessary. Tubes, as was stated, should be checked on a mutual conductance tester. You can also just visually inspect for fried/burned/melted looking components and replace (if you can still make out the values). If the amp does exhibit some signs of life and does not hum loudly through the speaker at all times indicating bad filter capacitors, then perhaps the crystal cutter/cartridge is bad. That is what is wrong with most of the ones I have. Again -- WestTech. The fact that the radio does not work on yours still tells me that there probably is a problem with the actual electronics. When you get into these things you have to expect that most old equipment will not just work perfectly. Price paid and even physical apperance sometimes do not provide a reliable indication of how well it will work. I would say that what I have been saying and what the other reply to your post said, could be treated as a general guideline for any old radio phonograph type of thing. After all, at least at this level, a disc cutter is nothing more than an amplifier hooked to a cutter instead of a speaker, with some sort of radio or microphone input source. You just have to learn to understand what various symtoms are trying to tell you and troubleshoot logically from there. Does the mic work as a mic? Does the speaker work? Does the playback cartridge pass signal? Does the cutter produce vibration when fed an appropriate signal? Does the amplifier pass signal through it? If it does, does it work in all "modes" or just some? Granted, it is not easy for a novice (or even for some of us who just are not that good of technicians) but it can be done. Without a schematic it is even harder, but with basic circuit principals in mind, one can look up the tube base diagrams in a tube manual and figure out by what is connected to which pin, how the signal flows through. As I said in my first reply, the good news, especially with the sort of unit you have, is there is not much more electronics there than a standard old table radio. People still understand how to fix those. In fact, If you are in over your head, perhaps a local radio collector/repairman might be your next step for help. There are also some helpfull guidlines for troublshooting old phonographs on West-Tech's site. And last, about the turntable, just because it spins now does not make it ready to cut. I would be sure that the motor suspension grommets are not cracked hard broken or missing, as the motor will not be positioned to give adequate torque to the idler wheel and the turntable. Also the lubrication of the motor, the idler wheel, and the turntable itself should be checked, as well as the idler to make sure it it clean, has some give to it (not rock hard) and is not cracked or has a big flat spot. The turntable should run pretty quietly even at 78 rpm, not like a "cement mixer". Actually the leadscrew mechanism that drives off the platter should also be re-lubed and the screw itself and the part that rides on it to guide the arm should be lightly greased.
- buckettovsissors
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:13 am
thanks
thanks for the tips Im gonna try all of it.
I did look for burnt out parts, but didnt find anything that looked really bad.
the turntable makes a quiet hum, there is some kind of lubrication becuase when I was looking around I got this gresse on my hands.
On a slightly other topic related to the other post about using other amps to "push" cutters, Did you mean to attach it directly to the cutting head cartrige?
For example a stereo speaker cables attached to the cutting head?
Thanks
Best,
Theo
I did look for burnt out parts, but didnt find anything that looked really bad.
the turntable makes a quiet hum, there is some kind of lubrication becuase when I was looking around I got this gresse on my hands.
On a slightly other topic related to the other post about using other amps to "push" cutters, Did you mean to attach it directly to the cutting head cartrige?
For example a stereo speaker cables attached to the cutting head?
Thanks
Best,
Theo
- cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
driving cutter heads
hi. I did post earlier to someone asking about the crystal cutters that they are high impedance devices and nee the kind of voltage you get either directly from a tube output or through a much higer impedance tap on the output transformer. I said I had driven one off of the 70V output of a low power PA amp like a background music type amp of about 10W output.
If you have a magnetic cutter, it may have an impedance in the same range as a speaker and so could be driven by a normal amp. Some of the Presto and Rek-O-Kut cutters are like this. Although some were actually higher impedance like 600 ohms, which is higher than the 8 to 16 ohm speaker range, but lower than the crystal units which were probably high 100s of thousands of ohms.
There were magnetic cutters made by others too like Astatic and Audex.
If you have a magnetic cutter, it may have an impedance in the same range as a speaker and so could be driven by a normal amp. Some of the Presto and Rek-O-Kut cutters are like this. Although some were actually higher impedance like 600 ohms, which is higher than the 8 to 16 ohm speaker range, but lower than the crystal units which were probably high 100s of thousands of ohms.
There were magnetic cutters made by others too like Astatic and Audex.