re-cutting old 78s

[jukebox]

Sorry I accidently posted this in classifieds. I was wondering if anyone has tried either machineing off the grooves in old records and re-cutting them, or resurfacing with epoxy or a substance that would fill in the grooves, and then cutting.?? How about an epoxy that could be cured after recording to make long lasting disks?
I also was wondering about how many plays I could expect to get from a record I would be able to make on a recordio machine. What I want is to record 78s to play in my jukebox. I can buy originals with music I like, but with shipping most come to 8 or 10 dollars ea. Plus With only 20 record capacity, it would be nice to be able to put good songs on both sides. Any thoughts?/ Thanks.

[cuttercollector]

I think that one issue you will run into, is even with a properly restored and functioning recordio unit, you will not be able to cut records as "hot" as the commercial pressings they were designed to play. It depends on the age of your box. Mechanical noise or even accoustic feedback might intrude if you just turn it up to compensate for the lower level on the disc. Also you are correct, the heavy pickup on an old jukebox will plow the signal right off a lacquer disc in pretty short order. I am no expert but if you have a kind jukebox and well cut lacquer dubs, perhaps 10-20 plays before it just becomes too noisy to tolerate. Results were better doing this with a commercial disc cutting system making large hole dubs for later 45 jukeboxes.

[tsullivan]

At first I thought you were joking, but when you say, "Recutting old 78's", do you mean playing them and cutting a new record? Well of course you can do that but your result won't be any better than the original record. Just set up a modern turntable with a magnetic cartridge equipped with the proper size stylus for 78's to get the best dub. I prefer to dub the 78's to a reel to reel tape deck first, then cut records from that.

Which jukebox do you have? I have a RockOla 1426 that plays 20 records. But only the top side, so it does not matter whats on the other side, its 20 records, 20 selections. The original set screw crystal cartridge tracked at about 2 ounces. I replaced it with a GE VR-II magnetic cartridge and was able to reduce the tracking force to around 20 grams. Sounds excellent, and its much easier on the records. I am going to try cutting some acetates to play on this machine, I think with my current setup I should be able to get a reasonable number of plays out of an acetate. Since blanks cost around $10 a piece thats pretty important.

Tom

[cuttercollector]

Actually, I think he was seriously asking about shaving off or filling in the grooves of old shelac 78s and re-cutting them on a Recordio. Other than wax cylinders I don't think there ever was an "erasable" mechanical disc technology. Certainly one would need some sort of normal lacquer to cut a dub record. Sounds like you have it right, put in a more modern, lighter tracking pickup, cut dubs on a pro lathe at a good but not excessive level.
BTW were there any 78 boxes that played both sides? And if so, how? I thought most used a turntable that came up underneath a record swung out from a stack and would only play the top side, as you describe.

[tsullivan]

Yes, there were some early 50's Wurlitzer boxes that played both sides. The turntable was about the size of the record label, and clamped the record between the turntable on the end of the shaft and a similar rotating piece on top, so both sides were available for playback. It had two tonearms, one for the bottom and one for the top, and it reversed direction for playing the bottom.

Also, the very first Seeburg 100A was a 100 selection box that played 78's on both sides vertically, like the later 45 boxes did. It held 50 records. There is not many around today still set on 78, since most of them got converted to 45.

There was actually a Wurlitzer that could play both speeds, intermixed.

Tom

[jukebox]

Hi,my jukes that play 78s are both AMI model C. 1949 and 50. They play both sides by picking up the record and setting it down on a full size turntable. The records stand upright in a rack that slides back and forth, stopping on your selection. It is then picked up and flipped either side a or b, and set down on the table.Very cool to watch, and absolutely reliable.

While record cutting would be fun, It looks like it would be more practical and cheaper to just buy good 78s.They are cheaper than blanks, and will last longer too. Still a very interesting site though.

Does anyone know if an old soundscriber cuts and modulates in the same way as needed to play on a 78 cart and stylus?I have an old one that I'm going to fix up. Thanks for your input. Rich.

[cuttercollector]

Well, it embosses a signal rather than cuts it with a chip. This was discussed on this group rather recently. Whether these can be played with normal pickup stylus geometry and of what size tip, without damage and with what type of fidelity is a subject that others here have probably tried and know much more about.
Also your first question about using other things than lacquer blanks has been talked about in past posts too, including various epoxies that could be made harder after cutting. The moderator/owner of this group was looking for a similar solution to make discs on his recordio to playback on an accoustic victrola which would thrash discs even faster than your jukebox! For that reason, (very hard brittle material) trying to "erase" and re-cut commercial shelac pressings would be pretty much impossible IMHO.

[flashbk13]

Hi Jukebox,
I also have an AMI C that i'm working on and wish to cut 78's for it (see, "what type system to use" post). Say, did I read right that you have 2 of these to play your 78's on? Rick.

[tsullivan]

I've only seen one of those AMI's in my life that played 78's. There are lots of them around that play 45's. I think the reason for that is the same as the Seeburg I mentioned above. When 45's took over the popular music scene in the early 50's, all the jukebox manufacturers offered conversion kits to convert their 78 boxes to 45. In the case of the AMI's, that was done by offering a complete replacement mechanism. The 78 mech was removed and trashed, and the 45 mech was installed in its place.

This was done despite the fact that the record companies continued to issue singles on both 78 and 45 until the end of the 50's. When going to a record store to buy a single, they had two racks, one with 78's and one with 45's. So you had your choice when going to buy a record. Sometimes, particularly toward the end of the 50's, the record store might run out of the 45 version of a popular hit, but still had the 78 version, so you would end up bringing home the 78.

Since I have a 45 jukebox also (Rowe-AMI) I would like to cut 45's also. But it seems thats even harder than cutting 78's. For one thing, I have never seen 7 inch blank acetates with the large center hole for 45's. Also, my Rek-o-Kut has 78 and 33, but not 45.

Yes, I know its cheaper to just buy records, and there are plenty on the market on both 78 and 45, but its just about being able to put what music I want on my boxes.

Tom

[cuttercollector]

I THINK large hole 7" blanks are still available from Transco if not Apollo also. And If you are set up to cut microgroove on your Rek-O-Kut, a 45 idler is out there because I have one for mine. You just replace the 78 one with the 45 one.