New Pitch Computer

[opcode66]

This system would come Windows based. Sorry, I am a Visual Studio guru. Not a lot experience building application in XCode. But, any Core Audio device can be used on Windows via low latency ASIO drivers. Your device surely has a setup for both OS's.

I would package the computer with OS, monitor, audio device for preview inputs, custom desktop application, custom breakout box, usb cable, and wiring with tuschels. All of this would be bundled for an affordable price.

Down the road I could add the capacity to do previewless transfers with an update to the desktop application. Your choice of audio hardware would be up to you. The application would work with any high end audio device.

[JayDC]

i hope to g_d that the developer of this software test's it very well, and never needs to make a software update other then for new features.

[dietrich10]

This system would come Windows based. Sorry, I am a Visual Studio guru. Not a lot experience building application in XCode. But, any Core Audio device can be used on Windows via low latency ASIO drivers. Your device surely has a setup for both OS's.

I would package the computer with OS, monitor, audio device for preview inputs, custom desktop application, custom breakout box, usb cable, and wiring with tuschels. All of this would be bundled for an affordable price.

You are losing me already.
The screen would need to smaller than an ipad to start with. Last thing I need to do is find space around the lathe for all this.

Sounds like you should just package OS, breakbox out box and connectors. If it works well I am ok not looking at what it is doing. I have no complaints now with the performance of my zuma.

[opcode66]

I wouldn't sell as standalone software. Makes no sense. Would only be asking for problems on various computer conifugations. To insure functionality, a basic system would be provided.

I have been developing cutting edge software for almost 12 years now. Used by thousands worlwide. I understand how to test and package distributions. That is my bread and butter.

A small LCD Monitor with a keyboard/mouse combo is the only thing you would need to find room for. The computer could be tucked away anywhere. If i used a micro format it would fit inside the Lathe Console beneath the rack for the existing P/D computer.

This system would be capable of more features than any other pitch system: zuma, ultrapitch, cbs pitch computer, etc.

[GeorgeZ]

I realize that this project could be completed much more expediently and with many more features if I were to do it as a USB breakout box connected to a computer. I can get a nice computer new for about $300 with OS and monitor. I would write a custom desktop application that would interact with the audio device on the computer as well as with the USB ports. The computer would connect to a custom breakout box via USB. The breakout box would connect to the lathe using existing connection points via tuschels. A sound card in the computer with two stereo inputs would take your preview Left and Right as well as your program L.

The breakout box would receive digital data from the computer program via USB. The box would output discrete voltages via DAC converters. The box would also have the circuitry of a PS66 built in that is digitally switched. So, this would be a hyper PS66 capable of all speeds and diameters. This includes actual computer control of all of the potentiometers on the PS66. So, all settings could be stored to computer and that operating state could be restored from the computer at any time.

The desktop application would give you a very nice display on screen of the audio in several ways (freq analysis, animated waveform buffer, vu meter, stereo separation). It would also display three bar graphs for LL, LV and V. Finally, it would display a value for the Lines Per Inch. Writing a computer program to do this would be fairly easy. Creating the breakout box would not be particularly hard either. Getting the USB communications going is very well documented. Audio analysis plug-ins for software development are commonplace. I see no reason why this would not work and be affordable to produce and purchase.

This system would allow for features that have not been implemented in hardware based pitch computers. For instance, I could add code to interact with ASIO audio hardware and you could use your high end audio device with the lathe application. Thereby rendering a preview delay unnecessary. Instead of doing an analog preview via audio inputs, the application could do a digital preview. You would open a 24 bit or 32 bit audio file and the application would pre-render the entire wave's pitch and depth map. When you hit the play button, the audio goes out to your cutting amps via your own ASIO audio interface. Simultaneously, the application would send the appropriate data to the breakout box via USB for the LV, LL and V DAC's.

Ok everybody, hit me with your best shot! I know the criticism is coming... But, I feel this approach is really doing something that hasn't been done before. And is less arcane than a strictly hardware based approach. The tools to develop such a system are readily available. The development timeline would be cut severely. And, it is based on a lot of subsystems/components that are industry tested and commonplace. Finally, the updates of such a system could easily be distributed and loaded via the Internet.

We will cross our fingers for your success, but be ready for months (years) of development and testing if you are alone for this task and have also a regular job. Our team consists of six people and some are working almost every day on development of upgrades for our cutting lathes and you can expect many troubles, both hardware and software.

But if you persist in your work, it should give you great results - better than any hardware pitch computer. I know it because we have developed a software pitch computer as an additional part for our new mastering system. In these days the prototype is being tested and the final version will soon be prepared for our cutting lathes.

Good luck

[greybeard]

@opcode66: while not in the market for this type of equipment I have looked forward to your further considerations. I think you make eminent sense, and it is the industrial control approach to solving the optimization problem. If someone applies 6 programmers to the task it will go quicker.

There is one thing that I see as a small source of error: to obtain the absolutely best packing on the disc, identical to a graphical mapping you might do on a screen, you have to be absolutely sure of the coordinates of the point you are cutting on the disc, in a polar coordinate system with a zero where you start cutting (the most practical zero, but it is not fundamentally relevant) and an absolute angle measure adding 360 deg to each revolution, plus - obviously - the radius. However, this also means that the movement of the turntable must be known perfectly all the way. There must be no drift of the turntable speed; it must be phase locked. Alternatively, you would need a position feedback from your turntable, and it would require re-calculation during the cutting process. So, since you have no feedback from the turntable, your solution will be slightly less than optimal. Nevertheless, I cannot see how it could fail to work well.

We shall remember that you were the first to outline such a concept for variable pitch!

[opcode66]

@Greybeard - The USB breakout box will receive all of the standard commands signals from the lathe. Up to and including the quarter turn signals coming from the photovoltaic cell mounted beneath the platter ring. Those signals will be relayed back to the computer via USB and to the software for interpretation.

Having the command data from the lathe and preview L and R signals will allow the software to do all the calculations required for p/d computation. I don't think there would be a need for the a third input (program L) as there is on the Neumann pitch computer. My system would have essentially limitless storage in comparison to a hardware based system. Every previous groove's data could be stored and accessed and not just half a rotation's worth thereby eliminating the need for the third input. The same concept is used on the CBS DisComputer and thus it only needed two inputs (L+R preview).

With all of the programming plug-ins for working with audio the application shouldn't be very hard to write for interpreting the preview audio. I've been collecting all of the equations necessary to plot the grooves geometrically. The real work would be in creating the USB breakout box and getting the back and forth comms going.

I'm going to create a block diagram later today to demonstrate the concept visually.

[JayDC]

sound cool, you should make a kit to update all the old presto stuff too

[opcode66]

sound cool, you should make a kit to update all the old presto stuff too

Me thinks that would represent overkill, no?

However, the CBS DisComputer was made as an option for Scully lathes. Same as the Capps p/d computer. So, technically, I suppose it would be possible. With a motor and belt addition you could drive the feedscrew on the overhead using impulses from the computer. Its all been done before.

My mind is has been on fire thinking the concept through since yesterday evening. I think this is the path I'm going to pursue.

[JayDC]

I would love some sort of digital turntable control as well, using some sort of tachometer feedback to make sure the speed is solid.

Steinberg released an ASIO api sometime ago, so you should probably use that for your audio engine, then you could accommodate the use of plug-ins and stuff for audio processing..


actually, what would be a grand approach would be to make all the lathe controls an actual plug-in, to be used in your daw of choice.. that way people can use what they use, but get all the awesome features from your unit.

click render to lathe, and boom it does it.. no matter if you use wavelab, protools, cubase, logic, sonar, soundforge, etc..

Why spend all that time reinventing the wheel, when you don't need to..

You all may scoff at the idea of me cutting masters off a presto 6n, but once i have a caruso, anything is possible. I got my lathe soo quiet now, that when compared to pressed records, my cuts seem to have less noise.

[opcode66]

@jaydc - what u are suggesting is not practical. First you say it better be g_d tested and rock solid. Now u say it should be a plugin for a random DAW. Not sure if you noticed but a lot of vst's are buggy when used in various DAWs. If i want rock solid performance a custom application infradtructure is critical. Too many variables with what u are suggesting. One would do editing with plugins in daw of choice. Export at high def. Then open in the lathe's computer.

I will look at what Steinberg offers. Sounds like mearly linkage to an audio device. That part is easy. I've written realtime audio apps before. Made my own sampler application way back in the day. I really need more analytical and graphical stule plugins for audio.

[JayDC]

@jaydc - what u are suggesting is not practical. First you say it better be g_d tested and rock solid. Now u say it should be a plugin for a random DAW. Not sure if you noticed but a lot of vst's are buggy when used in various DAWs. If i want rock solid performance a custom application infradtructure is critical. Too many variables with what u are suggesting. One would do editing with plugins in daw of choice. Export at high def. Then open in the lathe's computer.

I will look at what Steinberg offers. Sounds like mearly linkage to an audio device. That part is easy. I've written realtime audio apps before. Made my own sampler application way back in the day. I really need more analytical and graphical stule plugins for audio.

well since steinberg invented ASIO. I'd check it out, if you want low latency.

It coverts much more then audio interfacing with hardware, it will bring all the vst stuff and more.. and its and sdk, with an api..

http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/technologies.html

I think for the most part plug-ins are only as stable as the author allows.. between all of us you have great test bed of people that use different software, hardware and os's.

the nice thing about the plug-in, it would not only be cross host, but also cross platform.

if your going to make it stand alone, then u should make it a whole one stop mastering suite, with audio editing capabilities..

I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants to have to use just one thing... I hate having to export things from one, then load it into another, then export that one, just to load it in a 3rd piece of software..

A simple work flow with an easy to use interface, the more likely the industry will adopt it..

[JayDC]

this actually sounds like exactly what you should use from them..


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[opcode66]

To start, i feel more comfortable creating a custom standalone application. Maybe in the future it could be boiled down into a VST. For initial development that would be crazy though.

Ill take suggestions but only to the extent that they are feasible. I'm just one guy. I dont have a team of developers ans testers willing to work for me for free. Besides, u are ficusing on only one aspect of this. First things first. Need to breadboard a ps66 and make switchable cicuit branches via trasisor gates controlled by a pic chip. Then need to make tuschel blick and wiring. Then need chip to read lathe contriol signals and convey them via usb to computer.

Once that is complete, then i can focus on the computer code.

[opcode66]

an absolute angle measure adding 360 deg to each revolution, plus - obviously - the radius. However, this also means that the movement of the turntable must be known perfectly all the way. There must be no drift of the turntable speed; it must be phase locked.

Had another good idea. I once saw this digital dj system that was an optical rotary encoder that would clamp down on a Technics 1200. The encoder would send data to a dual cd deck thus giving you turntable control over cd's. It was scratchworthy. That is to say extremely accurate.

http://tascam.com/product/tt-m1/

Making a bracket to attach to the light bulb/photo cell holder on the VMS that would hold an optical rotary encoder with a wheel attached could give extremely accurate rotational position information. Same concept as the tt-m1.

[opcode66]

an absolute angle measure adding 360 deg to each revolution, plus - obviously - the radius. However, this also means that the movement of the turntable must be known perfectly all the way. There must be no drift of the turntable speed; it must be phase locked.

Had another good idea. I once saw this digital dj system that was an optical rotary encoder that would clamp down on a Technics 1200. The encoder would send data to a dual cd deck thus giving you turntable control over cd's. It was scratchworthy. That is to say extremely accurate.

http://tascam.com/product/tt-m1/

Making a bracket to attach to the light bulb/photo cell holder on the VMS that would hold an optical rotary encoder with a wheel attached could give extremely accurate rotational position information. Same concept as the tt-m1.

[andybee]

it is still done optical by vinylium (pitch98)
that tascam thing is no good idea to measure the speed.

[opcode66]

I didn't mean to use the Tascam component itself. I meant to use an optical rotary encoder as they do.

And, actually, I don't know of anything else that would more accurately measure position. Because speed it not what I need to measure...

The trick is to know how much of the platter has moved and not how fast it is currently moving. The optical rotary encoder will allow me to know where a point on the table is at any time.

Notice greybeard said the movement of the table at all times. If an optical rotary encoder like the one on the tascam is sensitive enough to be used to scratch with, why wouldn't it be sensitive enough to know the movement of the truntable at all times? I always know I'm on to something correct when everyon starts saying no no no...

The Neumann system only samples positoin 4 times per revolution. An optical rotary enoder with a wheal that is pressed against the bottom of the rotating platter would sense movement hundreds of times per revolution. So, which is better again?

[JayDC]

the rotary encoder will have steps, and will induce a small amount of drag.. it will also wear out quicker.

The optical system is wildly used, there are even plans for building them on the net. No moving parts, mean less can go wrong. If you want more accuracy, then more optical sensors.. 8 instead of 4...

being a DJ that scratches, Ill tell you first hand, NONE of the digital things work as good as vinyl.

[subkontrabob]

funny, I just posted a link to a DIY solution, with optical feedback and a microcontroller (sorry, text is in german) in the backwards mastering thread:

http://www.rstaudio.de/TT1/tt1_de.html