Has injection molding ever been used to produce vinyl records?
Not polystyrene records (i.e. not 45's made in the USA during the 1960s-1980s), but normal "vinyl" polyvinyl chloride records?
If injection molding was never used to produce vinyl records, anyone know why not? Looking at this simple youtube animation, it got me to wondering... Seems it would be much more efficient/quicker...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azsNpqW4J1s
(may have to click "replay" a couple times; it's real short)
Seems that injection molding vinyl records would be the way to go. Wondering why I've never heard of it being done.
Would the pressure required to force heated PVC into the narrow cavity of a vinyl record simply be too great for an extruder to handle, as shown in the video clip? Seems, then, you could just slightly increase the temp of the entire mold cavity and of the extruder nozzle to keep the PVC more liquid while flowing, use a larger extruder screw for more pressure, and maybe produce thicker-shaped records (more vinyl, i.e. 180-gram LPs) so the viscous PVC wouldn't have to squeeze out into a super-thin crevice to fill the mold...
just curious
- Bob
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blacknwhite
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I'm not an expert in injection molding, but I believe that PVC is too viscous to be injection molded, particularly into the shape of vinyl records. Even at the temperatures used in compression molding, the vinyl is dangerously close to burning up and/or otherwise chemically decomposing, and it is still pretty viscous. It might be possible to injection mold polycarbonate (as used in CDs) for analog records, but that material is much more expensive than vinyl or styrene. The resulting records would probably be much more durable than styrene. It might be an interesting experiment for someone to try if cost is no object.
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC
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blacknwhite
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in belgium
at www.vinylium.com (they bought our ttt presses, the whole pressing plants a few years ago -but they have nothing to do with vinylium switzerland...)
they have 2 injection moulding machines.... one is refurbished and i saw about 2 month ago the first 7inches coming out of the mould...
so there is still one company who can do it....
i dont know any others in operation
at www.vinylium.com (they bought our ttt presses, the whole pressing plants a few years ago -but they have nothing to do with vinylium switzerland...)
they have 2 injection moulding machines.... one is refurbished and i saw about 2 month ago the first 7inches coming out of the mould...
so there is still one company who can do it....
i dont know any others in operation
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blacknwhite
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Do you know whether they're injection-molding records with polystyrene, or polyvinyl chloride (PVC)?flozki wrote:in belgium
at www.vinylium.com... they have 2 injection moulding machines.... one is refurbished and i saw about 2 month ago the first 7inches coming out of the mould...
so there is still one company who can do it....
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Aussie0zborn
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This is a good question. If you consider that video Laser Discs were 12" in diamater and they were injected moulded why not make records in the same way using polycarbonate (PC) rather than vinyl (PVC)??
Ofcourse the Laser Disc is another one of those formats that did not last very long. For those not familiar with this format, picture a thick CD the same size as a 12" record with a label glued onto the middle of it. The Laser Disc format was popular in the USA and Japan for the home video market and karaoke. It never took off in Australia and it died a horrible death way before the DVD came out.
I believe each side was moulded separetely and then bonded together as are double-sided DVD discs to make a double-sided laser video disc.
In injection moulding the polycarbonate is melted and "squirted" into the mould cavity at high pressure. To heat PVC to these temperatures would not work. Next time you are playing with a blow torch, use it on a vinyl record and you will see that the record does not melt but turns to a charcoal-like substance as it is subjected to high temperature. Therefore I think it would be safe to say that you cannot injection mould vinyl record compound.
Even so, before the death of the Laser disc, you would think that someone would have thought to put a record stamper in the machine and press some polycaronate records! As is usual with big companies, if the machine cannot be converted to produce a newer format, it is discarded. Moulds for IMM (injection moulding machines) are very expensive and so to get a set made today just to satisfy our curioisty is not feasible. Further, big companies who invested millions in the manufacture of Laser Discs were not exactly going to waste their time pressing records and so I guess we will never know.
In any case, a good question and yes it was possible when Laser Discs were being produced but nobody (as far as I know) ever did it.
Perhaps a topic of discussion might be failed formats such as JVC's AHD disc (Audio High Density) and VHD (video high density) - both capacitance systems. I met an engineer who worked for EMI Swindon UK and he was involved in the production of VHD discs - this format was apparently never accepted outside of the education market. Anyone know about these two formats?
Ofcourse the Laser Disc is another one of those formats that did not last very long. For those not familiar with this format, picture a thick CD the same size as a 12" record with a label glued onto the middle of it. The Laser Disc format was popular in the USA and Japan for the home video market and karaoke. It never took off in Australia and it died a horrible death way before the DVD came out.
I believe each side was moulded separetely and then bonded together as are double-sided DVD discs to make a double-sided laser video disc.
In injection moulding the polycarbonate is melted and "squirted" into the mould cavity at high pressure. To heat PVC to these temperatures would not work. Next time you are playing with a blow torch, use it on a vinyl record and you will see that the record does not melt but turns to a charcoal-like substance as it is subjected to high temperature. Therefore I think it would be safe to say that you cannot injection mould vinyl record compound.
Even so, before the death of the Laser disc, you would think that someone would have thought to put a record stamper in the machine and press some polycaronate records! As is usual with big companies, if the machine cannot be converted to produce a newer format, it is discarded. Moulds for IMM (injection moulding machines) are very expensive and so to get a set made today just to satisfy our curioisty is not feasible. Further, big companies who invested millions in the manufacture of Laser Discs were not exactly going to waste their time pressing records and so I guess we will never know.
In any case, a good question and yes it was possible when Laser Discs were being produced but nobody (as far as I know) ever did it.
Perhaps a topic of discussion might be failed formats such as JVC's AHD disc (Audio High Density) and VHD (video high density) - both capacitance systems. I met an engineer who worked for EMI Swindon UK and he was involved in the production of VHD discs - this format was apparently never accepted outside of the education market. Anyone know about these two formats?
The JVC AHD and VHD discs were compression molded out of a PVC-based compound, if I remember correctly. The process was very similar to that used by RCA in their SelectaVision CED videodisc. Some of our RCA CED manufacturing engineers were asked to consult at JVC during their attempts to get a VHD pressing operation going in the USA. The CED vinyl compound was heavily loaded with carbon-based materials to make it electrically conductive. This made the material exceptionally difficult to mold and abrasive to the stampers. The RCA presses used for CED production were modified Toolex-Alpha 12 inch record presses.
To follow up on another comment, I'm not aware of anything other than experimental attempts to injection mold 12 inch audio records from polycarbonate in Laserdisc presses. At the time, polycarbonate was MUCH more expensive than vinyl and there was no justification for making audio records this way. The fact that polycarbonate is clear would possibly have made it attractive for use in making picture discs, but the conventional un-dyed PVC that was used for picture discs at that time was quite satisfactory and still cheaper than using polycarbonate.
To follow up on another comment, I'm not aware of anything other than experimental attempts to injection mold 12 inch audio records from polycarbonate in Laserdisc presses. At the time, polycarbonate was MUCH more expensive than vinyl and there was no justification for making audio records this way. The fact that polycarbonate is clear would possibly have made it attractive for use in making picture discs, but the conventional un-dyed PVC that was used for picture discs at that time was quite satisfactory and still cheaper than using polycarbonate.
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
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Slightly off-topic I know - but has anyone else seen the new SPAM SUCKS Ad currently running in the UK - with the record press in the background?? Think it's a Belgiun LENED Hand-press, but can't be sure - could't believe what I saw last night, when It came on twice during the Programme I was watching - can't seem to find it on the net....
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
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OOPS - Sorry Can't advertise - the last post wasn't an ad - just an observation - it's an an ad for one of the worlds largest Mobile(CELL) Phones Currently running in the UK - just curious as to why they have a record press in the background - can't imagine what it's got to do with Telephones...?
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
Injection molding
In the early sixties a company in huntington New York named Shelly products was injection molding 12" discs. He was using a special mix of styrene and the records were very quiet, little or no surface noise. The owner was Clark Galehouse and he mastered all of the discs on a modified Presto 8DG. His prices were comparible to vinyl pressing. I have no idea if Clark is still with us or what happened to his record plant
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Aussie0zborn
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Lened presses are American. Falbeldis SA of Belgium made a semi-automatic (OK, manual) record presses under the FABEL banner.
These are rather nice presses - temperature controlled rather than timer controlled and with only a half-inch stroke so that the compresison moulding process starts once the head is lowered even before the hydraulic ram kicks in. The two cylinders that open and close the tilting head use water pressure rather than hydraulic. Unlike the Alpha Toolex manual press where the crown is made of a single piece that can crack and wear, the Fabel crown is a two piece design so that if it cracks, the top part is removed and the replacement part is bolted on.
Fabeldis also made two extruders, both steam heated, single-zone. Both extruders were designed to bolt on to the side of the press.
I have some correspondence between Fabeldis and an Australian plant that used Fabel presses (and Alpha) and the Belgians were incredibly rude and arrogant. Any request for technical advice was met with arrogant replies and "you must return it to the factory for repair and pay through the nose". One piece of correspondence is a report of a visit to Fabeldis where they operated their own pressing plant and the report was very complimentary. Of interest was the point where Fabeldis annealed all their stampers before use, and developed a process that kept the silver nitrate coating on lacquer discs after processing so that they could be processed again.
Fabeldis operated joint venture plants in Europe and Africa. I suspect Fabelsound in Greece was one of those.
These are rather nice presses - temperature controlled rather than timer controlled and with only a half-inch stroke so that the compresison moulding process starts once the head is lowered even before the hydraulic ram kicks in. The two cylinders that open and close the tilting head use water pressure rather than hydraulic. Unlike the Alpha Toolex manual press where the crown is made of a single piece that can crack and wear, the Fabel crown is a two piece design so that if it cracks, the top part is removed and the replacement part is bolted on.
Fabeldis also made two extruders, both steam heated, single-zone. Both extruders were designed to bolt on to the side of the press.
I have some correspondence between Fabeldis and an Australian plant that used Fabel presses (and Alpha) and the Belgians were incredibly rude and arrogant. Any request for technical advice was met with arrogant replies and "you must return it to the factory for repair and pay through the nose". One piece of correspondence is a report of a visit to Fabeldis where they operated their own pressing plant and the report was very complimentary. Of interest was the point where Fabeldis annealed all their stampers before use, and developed a process that kept the silver nitrate coating on lacquer discs after processing so that they could be processed again.
Fabeldis operated joint venture plants in Europe and Africa. I suspect Fabelsound in Greece was one of those.