silver substitute?

[leethal]

Firstly let me say, am I the only person who marvels at the apparent lack of religious finesse that laquer plating gurus display when tossing the mothers/fathers/hombres through the paces??

OK now a proper query.....are there any other conductive metal sprays/solutions that offers the same electro-bonding qualities and superior cloning results as the prestigious silver liquid?

[leethal]

I may of overstepped my bounds as a newby for my observations via youtube, no offense guys, it just seems that their approach is so confident they act fearlessly. At least the handling of the laquer under various stages of hosing under low clearances (between tap and sink)...I dunno, I would be so careful as not to mark the surface, but you see my inexperience showing.

I guess the correct questions are:

- why use silver nitrate?

and

- why is the tin chloride not able to bond with the nickle electroforming?

Again, my appologies if I sounded rude, sometimes I forget that written text contains zero tone inflection, making for many a "discussion" with wifey. Am I right?

[leethal]

While I'm patiently waiting for some words of inspiration, I've also been trawling through troll pages and internet searches. I can half-answer one of my questions....tin chloride is merely a sensitizer, a glue, not a metal layer so to speak....so I'm guessing silver has either a finer composition or more durable finish than the nickel? Nod if I'm getting warmer..

I'll check back later gents, in the meantime keep it down to a dull roar please

[leethal]

I'm ok with this, really. Reminds me of when I bought a 70's motorbike and wanted to know everything from routine mainenance to solving electrical gremlins, same tired responses to same tired questions.. not always found via search function.
It took a while to acquire the tools and confidence but now I restore old yamahas and hondas to unwind from hectic chef life. When I'm focussed on a passion I never surrender, with or without authoritarian stonewalling.
I want to learn more about the process that my (punk rock) bands save so intently all year for, to be represented on the truest medium, middle finger raised to i-something.

So far I've released a 10"e.p. and an L.P. through European label Randale. My other main band put out an L.P. last year through a local Brisbane label. I always imagined working in a vinyl factory since I was a kid, but rural Australia tends to quash those thoughts. Years later the thought of me, cutting/pressing records, was as likely as being released on one. Time for something to distract me from trash tv and rascist biggots ruining my fucking country.
I've trawled almost every page of this site, saved a great deal of it to my PC and printed out so much juicy info that Jullian Assange wants to know whats in there. I've donated some coin to your site (coz I believe in troll-life), and repeatedly edit my naturally occurring cuss words, yet I still I cannot find my simple answers. BTW your wiki is lacking links to relative topics, and the best info I've found hasn't been a made a 'sticky' for some reason. Sure would save everyone a lot of sore eyes.

[Aussie0zborn]

I don't believe there is any other spray solution that's been used for applying a metallic layer on lacquer discs.

I've heard something about sputtering lacquer discs but never paid attention to it. Check the process for applying the metallic layer on CDs to see sputtering in action - applying a metallic layer (aluminum or gold) to an untreated plastic disc in a vacuum chamber using high voltage. I can't imagine sputtering would be doing the lacquer disc any favours.

Sometimes its best to use proven technology than to try and re-invent the wheel.

As for the plating gurus tossing lacquer discs around let's just say they have a "feel" for it.

Interesting question. Why do you ask?

[mossboss]

While I'm patiently waiting for some words of inspiration, I've also been trawling through troll pages and internet searches. I can half-answer one of my questions....tin chloride is merely a sensitizer, a glue, not a metal layer so to speak....so I'm guessing silver has either a finer composition or more durable finish than the nickel? Nod if I'm getting warmer..

I'll check back later gents, in the meantime keep it down to a dull roar please

Well Brisbane boy?
Rural Australia?
There was a plant in Tamworth many moons ago Country and western record pressings only
Any way
May not be a roar, here are a few bits for you
Basics,
Obviously you can not proceed with applying a nickel deposit to anything unless the part you want to plate upon is a conductor of electricity,
The lacquer needs and must be made conductive to electricity, as it is dielectric To do that it is silvered, reasonable question of course is, are there any alternatives?
Here we go, back quite a bit in time
Wax, the real stuff, like bees wax with some additives like soap, used to be the material to cut upon in days gone past,
It was made in a cylinder, it was about 3-4 inches thick, having whatever diameter record was to by made 10" and 12" was the norm
7" records come along many years later, so it was 12" and 14" wax masters , Once the wax was cut, these wax masters were either silver or gold sputtered in a vacuum chamber, to make the wax conductive,
Prior art was a coating of very fine graphite but that was back very early days
Sputtering of a Lacquer was attempted by many in the past and I am sure recent times as well however it was a failure
These are the reasons why it failed:
There are volatiles, which have not escaped during the curing process remaining in the film which leach out of the lacquer film when it is placed under high vacuum
To add to that issue some of the castor oil, used in the formulation sweats out
The solvents do escape in the course of drying a freshly coated lacquer but not 100%,
Castor oil is a kind of plasticiser keeping the lacquer film soft enough to cut on, without breaking the chip or tearing the material instead of cutting it
The silver will not adhere to the surface of a lacquer that has spots of oil or tiny microscopic streams of solvent escaping from pores
This happens while you are attempting to cover the surface with atomised metal floating around in the chamber due to the high vacuum applied in there
Obviously if you are to leave them under vacuum for days or weeks there no doubt you will exhaust all of the solvents out
The issue than is, oil will still be seeping out
After many attempts by many plants attempting to utilise existing expensive equipment, the process was abandoned
So we can discount sputtering or even vacuum metalising another process very similar
So that's out of the way, I hope it is clear
Silvering
Silvering on glass to make mirrors, in the printing industry to make nickel printing plates has been used for many years the process was well established with supplies and methods known widely
It is unreliable for a variety of reasons however it was used long enough so it was adopted by the Vinyl record industry
As we all know glass and acetate film, as well as lacquers are not, very friendly to water
They tend to repulse water
Sensitising glass for photographic plates was already a well established method as well, also for the manufacture of mirrors
Various chemicals where used used as a sensitiser, to make sure that there is adhesion of the silver on to these surfaces by allowing them to hold a film of water
The term is to make them hydrophilic, friendly to water, rather than hydrophobic, scared of or not water friendly
Tin was deemed to be the better sensitiser for lacquers, even though there where and are quite a few other chemicals
With a successful coating of Tin on the lacquer, a continuous film water stays on the surface of the lacquer, it must be a continuous film without any visible break
If any spots on the lacquer are not covered with a film of water the process is repeated from the beginning
A bit of chemistry!
Tin chloride is mixed with a strong acid to stop it hydrolising, often a spray of a 10% acid in distilled water is also used after rinsing the first application of tin, just to make sure it has not gone off
That is the reason you must not let lacquers dry once they are silvered, you want to keep that film of water on them to prevent oxidation of the silver
Silver nitrate has a content of around the 62-63% pure silver, the remainder is Nitric acid,
It is usually supplied in powder form, some people prefer it in liquid form, dissolved in distilled water
Chemicals for the process are freshly prepared for the day the sliver for the process is nearly a pH of around 7 almost neutral
Requirements for silvering!
Ideally one wants a single atomic layer of silver on a lacquer,
Well, it is almost impossible to achieve by spraying, so it is around the 5-7 layers thick but it works most of the times like 95 out of 100 Ha,
If lots of silver is applied resulting in a thick coating, you will get stampers with a an unacceptable level of background hiss
The reason is simple
As some may know, in the electroforming process, the metal deposit builds up atom by atom or ionically
If to much silver is applied it builds up layer upon layer forming superfine crystals of silver which determine the formation of the nickel deposit,
Nickel will build up in a similar crystalline form, this crystalline deposit results in an unacceptable level of background noise on the metal work
With Nickel record matrices you are aiming for an amorphous deposit, since the silver layer determines the structure of the deposition it is imperative that the thinnest possible coating of silver is applied to prevent crystals forming
The thickness of the silver coating is checked periodically to make sure all the settings are still in order
The method is quite simple but I would doubt any one does it in house now days
In practice it is generally based on the number of passes with the spray gun over the lacquer
About 2.5 passes is usual, some times it may take another half or one pass due to a variety of reasons fluctuating air pressure, moisture in the air, ambient temp
The galvanic guys are really quite amazing they know whats going on while they do it, they do they own adjustments on the fly, young galvanic guys are always amazed at the way the old hands know what is needed
It comes from experience as well as many failures
The steps are simple the chemistry is simple the application is simple, as I have already said it works 95 times out of 100, why not 100% ? who knows! we still trying to figure that one out He He
That's enough for now
Hopefully the above helps a little
Cheers

[Aussie0zborn]

The pressing plant mentioned was outside Tamworth in a town called Manilla. The plant was Countrywide Record Pressing Pty Ltd. I bought that plant from the liquidator around 1988 or '89. They did amazing plating work for us before I bought the plant but they had never connected their Alpha Toolex presses. I bought the whole plant with complete plating shop, three presses and extruders, 50hp/170psi boiler and two Garrard 401 turntables with Linn tomearms and Shure cartridges for $5,000. Today you would pay $5,000 just for those turntables and tonearms.

They used silver spray and their custom-made silvering machine is still in operation today.

[salnikov]

Good price !!!!

[leethal]

Thanks guys, your knowledge is mind blowing!
Firstly I spent my formative youth 30km outside of grafton nsw. I witnessed the wax tube record in science class which made me analyze my own/dads records moreso. I still have my very first Sesame Street lp that I got as a 4 year old.

As stated I need personal challenges to play with in my garage to unwind from my hectic chef life, it soothes the soul. I wanna play around with the science that makes records possible, it's just too fascinating for me. I'm sure I'll have further questions which I'll annoy you with later, but atm I'm typing this from the work dunny and need to get back in the kitchen.
Thanks again guys.

[mossboss]

Mmmmm!!
Work dunny yeah
Well we still get in the shit with silvering but it is not as easy as having a crap
Most people here will most likely wonder whats a dunny
Its an Australianism for the crapper or toilet
Cheers