steam boiler

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

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cuttinglover
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steam boiler

Post: # 34965Unread post cuttinglover
Sat May 09, 2015 6:02 pm

hi there,

I want to buy a steam boiler , it's a 180 degrees Celsius and 150 psi .
I know that i need for a single press about 150kg/h steam .
But this type off steam boiler makes 500kg/h .
Can i make less steam with a valve between it ?

Thanks

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 34985Unread post Aussie0zborn
Mon May 11, 2015 5:42 am

This is an interesting first post - welcome to our forum.
This is a good steam pressure for record pressing.
What are you doing, exactly?

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opcode66
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 34991Unread post opcode66
Mon May 11, 2015 1:35 pm

Not sure. But, I have heard that German steam is the best. :D
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andybee
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35008Unread post andybee
Tue May 12, 2015 1:31 am

the steam flow is regulated by a valve between steam line and the press.
It is usually just an open/close valve.
Steam pressure should be stable 174 PSI is better for faster operation.
The steam pressure/temperatur is usually regulated by the boiler itself,
and moves up and down between two pressure points.
If you want a stable pressure, you need to install a pressure regulation
valve. the pressure of the boiler must oscillating with pressure across the desired pressure
of the regulation valve.
Without this system, it is hard to get flat records....
So, a bigger boiler just shuts down earlier when the desired pressure is reached.

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cuttinglover
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35035Unread post cuttinglover
Wed May 13, 2015 5:19 pm

thank you for your support , first I gonna explain what I gonna do.
I wanna start a small pressing plant .
I have one steam watervalve foreward and one backward on a hydraulic system
Watertower with a waterflow 60 squaremeter/hour and a waterpump 2,25 kw
goes to the heat exchancer and a reverse to the cooling tower .
heat exchancer for coolwater with a flow 12 squaremeter/hour and a tank for buffering
than a pump 4,8 squaremeter/hour pressure 150psi 2,2kw the end temperature will be about 23 degrees Celsius.
up to the steam water valve than to the mold and on the feedback two steamtraps 150 psi
for cooling to the heat exchancer and reverse to the boiler.
What to do with the wasted water on the press can recycle it after cleaning ?

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leethal
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35050Unread post leethal
Fri May 15, 2015 1:36 pm

Is your water cycle anything like this? I too am tinkering with a home built press, my steam boiler should be delivered within a month.
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mossboss
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35057Unread post mossboss
Fri May 15, 2015 8:01 pm

Hi all in this very confusing thread. Lots of misinformation as well as some rather interesting twist in the simple process of providing steam and cooling water to a press
So here are some tips for all and sundry
1. Steam boiler capacity should be 25% greater than you need that takes care of fluctuations which will happen with anything less, the extra capacity does not go to waste as it is held in storage
2. A boiler with storage rather than a generator its best, steam generators have to great pressure variation for successful operation
3. A 12" mould requires 1.5 kg of steam for heating it up
4. It also needs 30 litres of water to cool it down PER CYCLE
Now
It depends what press you have or how to modify the existing press to get best results
Most semi and auto presses have 3 valves the alphas have 4
In the 3 valve system this is the cycle that takes place
Steam in, water in, and water out
The cycle
Heating cycle
Steam in valve is opened, water out valve is also opened, which is to the cooling tower
It is usuall to have a steam trap on the outlet to the cooling tower
Water from the previous cycle remaining I the mould as well as condensate that is steam that has condensed into water after releasing its Heat find their way to the tower
The flow continuous on until steam alone is detected the steam trap, the trap than does the trick it shuts down stopping the flow out
At this point the press closes pressing the record
Steam valve remains open regardless, the steam trap will open and close as it will allow any condensate to find its way out to the cooling tower.
Once the pressing cycle has run out, Cooling water is admitted by shutting down the open steam in valve and opening the water in valve and water out valve
The water out valve may still be open in some presses in others it shuts down and it is opened when it has to
That's about how just about every press ever made works
Ok is there a better way? Well not to improve the steps however one can save a lot of energy in the process
Here is what one can do to save on energy keeping in mind that These presses where designed and made in the years when energy was at a far lower cost than to day,
If you place a diverting valve on the water out side than you can divert the heated water from the last cycle to the boiler feed water tank so as to save the energy already inherent in the moulds as well as any condensate which wil be there until the moulds are heated up and the steam trap shuts
This valve needs a timer on it for the duration of the diversion, once it is up it is than diverted to the cooling tower so it is ready when the cooling session has started, it is not hard but it needs to have some extra piping
One can also do the same thing on the cooling cycle with anothe diverting valve once again taking the heated water in the first say 5-8 seconds and divert it to the feed water tank
Heated water has lass dissolved oxygen in it which is a plus for the boiler
The alpha 4 valve system works like this
Heat 1
Heat 2
Heat 3
Cooling
Heat 1
The steam in valve is open and water out valve is also open it is usually set at around the 6 second mark the water out is straight to the cooling tower
Heat 2
The water out valve remains open but the steam in valve is closed down or chocked at around the 90% mark or even less
This tends to increase the steam pressure a little so some extra Heat is obtained from the steam
At this stage the chocked steam condensate is send to the condensate tank
The cycle time is around the 2-3 seconds
Heat 3
The chocked valve remains at its position chocked but the water and condensate return valves are both shut
This stage maintains an even Heat for the pressing cycle what the moulds are shut pressing the record
Once the pressing cycle is up the steam in valve is shut than both water in and out valves are open and cooling water is admired to the moulds which is send to the cooling tower
Diverting valves to save energy can also be used on these presses as well
Hope this is of some help and it is important that all of you look up at a steam table and determine what Heat you going to get out of whatever pressure steam vessel you intend to get
Traditionally a pressing plant had 170 psi boilers and evaporative cooling towers
It was in the days where a boiler attendant was also a requirement and in some countries it remains so
Now day with un attended boilers one has to also see what the rules are in their country
150 psi is ok on some places and 170 is not, in some places no more than 15 psi for any boiler so a ticketed person is required for any pressure vessels above 15 psi
So do your home work first before you jump in
The reason that in Germany small plants use steam generators rather than high pressure boilers is the law there
In Canada you need a ticketed person on board to have a high pressure vessel above 15psi
In the UK a different ball game and a very high insurance premium for the boiler but no ticket is required and in Italy you must have a ticket
Once again find out the rules in your location
I'll be happy to clarify anything here that does not make sense to any one but please no pm's
Cheers







Heat 3
Chris

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leethal
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35065Unread post leethal
Sat May 16, 2015 4:58 pm

Once again Chris you've shared vital knowledge that will help enthusiusts like myself beyond compare. I hope I can buy you a beer someday.

I will process this info and interpret it as a drawn diagram when I get time, hopefully you will find time to note corrections and advise efficient placement of valves within the arterials.

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cuttinglover
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35066Unread post cuttinglover
Sat May 16, 2015 6:24 pm

Thanks cris,

This explains a lot off questions .
I know there will be a lot off study
In my country 170 psi is the maximum without proofing.
A friend off mine is a process engineer so he can help me to build a safety system.
Also water treatment from the coolingtower
I thinking about legionela disease.
Programming the PLC will also be a big challange .
And there will be more problems coming my way.
So much respect for people who are working in the record industry.
I appreciate your knowledge .

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leethal
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35069Unread post leethal
Sat May 16, 2015 9:01 pm

Does this look about right Chris?
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cuttinglover
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35076Unread post cuttinglover
Sun May 17, 2015 12:08 pm

pressing.jpg
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andybee
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35109Unread post andybee
Tue May 19, 2015 5:17 am

Ha, thanks chris for sharing your knowledge!

Huuh, a lot of strange schematics, this looks mostly good, but there are some errors.
I never seen a 3 valve system, most likely they are used in older, simpler presses?
The cooling water must also go through the steam trap?

So, the next question is, which steam trap to use, there are tons of different types
on the market!
I think, a steamtrap with high flow is needed, they are available from 50 up to 2000 kg/hour.
Which one do you suggest chris?

Spirax TD 42 3/4" (has approx. 1000-1300kg/h @ 150 PSI)

http://www.spiraxsarco.com/Documents/TD42_Thermodynamic_Steam_Trap-Installation_Maintenance_Manual.pdf

:roll:

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Steve E.
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35113Unread post Steve E.
Tue May 19, 2015 11:39 am

Careful with this stuff.

I don't know any of the technical details. All I know is that we lost one of our guys to a boiler explosion.

andybee
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35163Unread post andybee
Thu May 21, 2015 5:25 am

yes, steam can be dangerous!
There are 2 different types of boilers available: with big pressure tank inside (much more
dangerous, must be inspected regulary by security company!), or the steam generator
with heating coil inside.
The "coil" generator can´t explode, the other can...
There are some other security issues to watch for tubings, fittings etc.
Best is, when an experienced person does the steam installation! :!: :!: :!:

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cuttinglover
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35167Unread post cuttinglover
Thu May 21, 2015 2:51 pm

Thanks , Andy

The drawing off the steam plant is send by the manufactor off the press .
But it also confuse me why the cold water and steam come together before the valve .
What do think andy ?

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mossboss
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35254Unread post mossboss
Tue May 26, 2015 8:44 am

Hey guys
You are making this a much harder task than it is
Now let's see if I can simplify things there are enough details already so we will not go there, suffice to say that steam pressure and water pressure should about the same whatever that is
If steam is at 150 psi so should be the cooling water.
Let's see. If this is simple enough. Ha ha
It will be kept simple here for the DIY guys, at any rate lots of machines operate as such
Steam supply
The inlet of the steam from the steam source is to one valve branching out to a Y piece on the outlet side
That's where the flexible tubes fasten to the Y pice on the valve than to the two moulds,
The moulds have an inlet and an outlet tube clearly marked in and out, therefore there are FOUR Connections two for A side and two for B side or upper and lower moulds
Water supply
Same again one valve and a Y piece
Condensate or water return
One valve, mounted in a Y or a T fashion with the with the steam in valve going out to the cooling tower
So as to not confuse any one
We have water IN and water OUT but only steam IN therefore THREE valves
The steps are
Steam in water/ condensate out (heating and holding temp)
Water in water out (cooling)
So as we do not have steam out THREE valves suffice
Now these are the steps that usually take place with say 4 simple timers as the control method
We are ready to press a record, steam is up, the water pump is running, the extruded is ready, hydraulics are on, labels are dry,and we have stampers mounted on the press
So here we go
We close the gate or tell the Press to go let's say that a Micro switch is activated which than starts the first timer
The timer opens the steam valve it Also activates the water outlet valve on
Steam goes in to the moulds turns into water discharges out of the water outlet and into the cooling tower or a header tank prior to the cooling tower whatever you choose
This step is timed so as to get the moulds up to the steam temperature
(A steam trap on the water outlet is normally fitted, it will only let water out and not steam)
Once the timer is up the press closes, on the up stroke it activates the second timer via some means which starts the closed time steam and the water out valve are still open
When the closed press time timer is up the third timer is activated
The steam valve is shut down the water outlet vale remains open the water in valve is activated so the cooling cycle starts to the set time
Once the cooling cycle is done with the hydraulics are told to shut off the press opens the gate is opened the forth timer starts as an interval to the next cycle
That's set for enough For the record to be removed the press loaded up with labels and compound than when the gate is shut it is ready for the next gig
Repeat
Simple enough. Ha ha ha
Added complexity here. he he
A diverter valve fitted on the outlet pipe during the first step of the heating up cycle, can send the cold water initially to the tower, than divert to the condensate tank on the boiler
Keep in mind the moulds and lines are filled with cooling water from the previous cycle!!!
So cold water out to the tower condensate to the boiler feed tank!!
Same again on the cooling cycle another diverter valve but working in opposite fashion
First step to the condensate tank as the water will be ver hot than to the cooling tower as it will drop down in temp as it cools down
Both these valves must have timers on them graded in seconds so they can be set independently
More pipe work required but energy today is costly so it pays to do it even in the short run
I am sure there will be questions galore but please guys have a really good think first before you start asking.
Andy B
Spirax components are really expensive if you have them use them if not buy the lowest cost ones as the cost of just one of Spirax valve buys you about 5 of the other brands
Than again I am very careful with money. He he
Best of luck with all this
And as our autocratic leader says "if you don't know what you are doing with steam keep away from it" guys it is a a vary dangerous medium if it is not treated with the respect it deserves.
Please, and again do not attempt steam fitting work unless you are fully aware of what you are doing
Do leave it to a professional and make sure he has all the tickets required wherever you are located.
Cheers
Chris

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mossboss
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35255Unread post mossboss
Tue May 26, 2015 9:05 am

Steve E. wrote:Careful with this stuff.

I don't know any of the technical details. All I know is that we lost one of our guys to a boiler explosion.
Hey Steve
Totally with you on the dangers of steam, however so far of what I know is that the pressure relief valve was activated when the man was close to the boiler
The outlet of the pressure relief valve was not vented to the atmosphere due to the joint failing so steam went everywhere except where it should have
The man was scalded due to steam hitting his body engulfing him, with enough burns to cause the inevitable, not nice at all
However, the point: There was no boiler explosion.
I do not want to give any false impressions here or say it is not dangerous, it is indeed very dangerous, but there tens of 1000s of boilers in operation all over the world, it is a very rare occurrence that there is a boiler explosion as such
In my many years any mishaps occurring with a pressure vessel can be almost put down to human failure to maintain the boiler as it should be
All I want to point out that boilers just don't blow up if they are kept maintained and within the rules of the governing authority as well as the manufacturers instructions as well as installed by professional people within the rules of the relevant jurisdiction.
Cheers
Chris

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cuttinglover
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Re: steam boiler

Post: # 35367Unread post cuttinglover
Sat May 30, 2015 4:46 pm

thanks , chris
For your advise ,your clarification was very clear .
Now I also see the many mistakes in the drawing , I sent .
And what could happen when I build a plant like this.
I don't wanna think about it , safety first .
So I leave the work for professionals

Ron

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