I speak about with a "BOY" and "Engel" Spanish commercial and explain me a lot of posibilities... he said " actually, the record presses are very old concept, today a vertical press with a cartesian robot work with more precission and speed" 100.000 euros
http://dr-boy.de/de/products/boy-55-v/
New presses for vinyl record industry
Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn
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montalbano
- Posts: 139
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With 61,8 tons you barely press a 7 inch...
It takes about 100 tons to press a 12".
Toolex Alphas used to cost 75,000 Usd back in the days. Without hydraulics.
Now they worth 1/10 and they keep doing their job after 30 years.
Lots of factories (also here in Italy) used to acquire injection moulding machines when plastics factories closed in the early-mid 90's. But they kept using Leneds and Alpha Toolexs. The reason is simple: cheaper mainteinance, simplier machines, and they are "the machines" - in the sense that you can always find spareparts around, and people who know the common issue.
My opionion. But Moss you were into injection moulding back in the days. I think your contribution might be quite worthy here.
It takes about 100 tons to press a 12".
Toolex Alphas used to cost 75,000 Usd back in the days. Without hydraulics.
Now they worth 1/10 and they keep doing their job after 30 years.
Lots of factories (also here in Italy) used to acquire injection moulding machines when plastics factories closed in the early-mid 90's. But they kept using Leneds and Alpha Toolexs. The reason is simple: cheaper mainteinance, simplier machines, and they are "the machines" - in the sense that you can always find spareparts around, and people who know the common issue.
My opionion. But Moss you were into injection moulding back in the days. I think your contribution might be quite worthy here.
and technics -
Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1828
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
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Presses
Marcos
Injection moulding of records was attempted quite a number of times in the past
It has a lot of benefits as longer stamper life no trimming required as well as high speed etc etc etc
Now there where a whole heap of 45's pressed to give away not to sell as the sound quality just did not compare with a coining press like all the brands mentioned
The best thing you can do with an injection moulder is to use the hydralics and the screw by separating them Prop the 4 column bar section upright use the extruder to make the cake and you have a very low cost record press
Now here is the crunch
Most machines today for injection moulding use a toggle locking system which locks the plattens at the tonnage specified for the machine
If you look at the cylinder the moves the platten shut is around the 70-100 mm whre by their normally have around the 300 mm ramor a bit more in some machines
These are NOT good for making records
You need a machine that has hydralic locking as you need to slow down the closing speed in the last 5-10 mm so as to spread the vinyl prior into applying the final 10 tonnes or the labels would tear off and be spread all over the record
Tother issue would be non fill as air woud be trapped in the grove whic was the main reason that injection moulding was never succesfull
Any way thats it from me on the subject of technical input
And for 100 K euros you would need to press a lot of records to recoup that money man at 10 cents profit each you are looking at 1 Million records to be sold and where are you intending to do that kind of quantity
Cheers
Injection moulding of records was attempted quite a number of times in the past
It has a lot of benefits as longer stamper life no trimming required as well as high speed etc etc etc
Now there where a whole heap of 45's pressed to give away not to sell as the sound quality just did not compare with a coining press like all the brands mentioned
The best thing you can do with an injection moulder is to use the hydralics and the screw by separating them Prop the 4 column bar section upright use the extruder to make the cake and you have a very low cost record press
Now here is the crunch
Most machines today for injection moulding use a toggle locking system which locks the plattens at the tonnage specified for the machine
If you look at the cylinder the moves the platten shut is around the 70-100 mm whre by their normally have around the 300 mm ramor a bit more in some machines
These are NOT good for making records
You need a machine that has hydralic locking as you need to slow down the closing speed in the last 5-10 mm so as to spread the vinyl prior into applying the final 10 tonnes or the labels would tear off and be spread all over the record
Tother issue would be non fill as air woud be trapped in the grove whic was the main reason that injection moulding was never succesfull
Any way thats it from me on the subject of technical input
And for 100 K euros you would need to press a lot of records to recoup that money man at 10 cents profit each you are looking at 1 Million records to be sold and where are you intending to do that kind of quantity
Cheers
Chris
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Aussie0zborn
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This same company makes injection moulding machines but this is a machine from their line of "insertion moulding" machines. Marcos, Im thinking "insertion" means you insert the raw material before the machine can do anything rather like a compression moulding machine. Is that correct?
Can anyone clarify what an "insertion moulding machine" actually is?
Can anyone clarify what an "insertion moulding machine" actually is?
Ok
Because i'm a toolmaker I will try to explain this in my crappy english:)
Basically you have a steel tool with dies which is split in halt.
The die has the shape of the end product.
The tool is fixed in the maschine and hydraulic cylinders open the tool and close it.
1: Material gets heatet up (pc or similar)
2.The machine closes the tool (hydraulic)
3.The hot and "liquid" material gets pushed under pressure into the tool and fills out the die.
4. Maschine stops and the material gets hard.(there are cooling channels filled with water in the tool)
5.the tool opens (hydraulic)
6."Ejectors" are pushing the part "endproduct" out of the die (mechanicaly)
7. Part gets collected.
8.the tool is closing
9.same thing starts again
This is the prinziple of it.
I believe it would be very hard to eject a record because you will need more than one ejector to get the part out and you always get marks.
have a look at a plastic spoon and you will find a round mark on the back which is from the ejector.
Normaly injecting moulding is done horizonatally!
For example mobile covers, plastic spoons, lighters, pens, car parts interior this is normaly done with injection molding.
Cheers
Because i'm a toolmaker I will try to explain this in my crappy english:)
Basically you have a steel tool with dies which is split in halt.
The die has the shape of the end product.
The tool is fixed in the maschine and hydraulic cylinders open the tool and close it.
1: Material gets heatet up (pc or similar)
2.The machine closes the tool (hydraulic)
3.The hot and "liquid" material gets pushed under pressure into the tool and fills out the die.
4. Maschine stops and the material gets hard.(there are cooling channels filled with water in the tool)
5.the tool opens (hydraulic)
6."Ejectors" are pushing the part "endproduct" out of the die (mechanicaly)
7. Part gets collected.
8.the tool is closing
9.same thing starts again
This is the prinziple of it.
I believe it would be very hard to eject a record because you will need more than one ejector to get the part out and you always get marks.
have a look at a plastic spoon and you will find a round mark on the back which is from the ejector.
Normaly injecting moulding is done horizonatally!
For example mobile covers, plastic spoons, lighters, pens, car parts interior this is normaly done with injection molding.
Cheers
tools for injection molding have to be very precise.
Often you work with tolrances not more than +- 0.1 mm
It is very importand that the two halfes of the tool fit onto each other perfectly. otherwise the material gets pushed out and you get marks and overlaps.
If the part you try to make is too complex you might get problems to fill the die with the material because it starts to harden and and and.
So this is not that easy:)
Often you work with tolrances not more than +- 0.1 mm
It is very importand that the two halfes of the tool fit onto each other perfectly. otherwise the material gets pushed out and you get marks and overlaps.
If the part you try to make is too complex you might get problems to fill the die with the material because it starts to harden and and and.
So this is not that easy:)
Molding etc
Ok here we go again
Now Boris has it right with one very important point which is crucial
A injection moulding machine as a rule is horizontal all in line in other words the barrell injects the plastic into the dies/molds which is closed under pressure by the machine in the center via a path way with a sprue or in really expensive dies in a sprueless set of molds
Now If you look at anyinjection moulded thing ie your cell phone case it has little bits of threaded bits metal embedded in the plasticso as to take screws that hold the thing togeher
On a horizontal machine it is much harder for the operator or the robot to insert these things on the dies prior to the die closing of course for the plastic material to be injected into it incorporating these metal parts as intented
On a Vertical machine it is much easier for this operation to take place therefor the name Insertion Injection moulding machine Thats all nothing really new just like Vinyl Records and how to make them It has all been tried before when there was no luck of money in the industry with giants like Philips RCA Columbia etc etc whodid spend a fortune so as to do it In actual fact EMI the company who was right behind it took out a couple of patents on the mold construction as well as EMI another company took one as well It is all there Seek and they shall find said the good lord Do a patent search and "Read All About it"
I run Arburg insertion machines back in days gone past many many years ago and they are a very good machine but any one who wants to make records on anything else apart from record presses is dreaming
or having themshelves on
Cheers
Now Boris has it right with one very important point which is crucial
A injection moulding machine as a rule is horizontal all in line in other words the barrell injects the plastic into the dies/molds which is closed under pressure by the machine in the center via a path way with a sprue or in really expensive dies in a sprueless set of molds
Now If you look at anyinjection moulded thing ie your cell phone case it has little bits of threaded bits metal embedded in the plasticso as to take screws that hold the thing togeher
On a horizontal machine it is much harder for the operator or the robot to insert these things on the dies prior to the die closing of course for the plastic material to be injected into it incorporating these metal parts as intented
On a Vertical machine it is much easier for this operation to take place therefor the name Insertion Injection moulding machine Thats all nothing really new just like Vinyl Records and how to make them It has all been tried before when there was no luck of money in the industry with giants like Philips RCA Columbia etc etc whodid spend a fortune so as to do it In actual fact EMI the company who was right behind it took out a couple of patents on the mold construction as well as EMI another company took one as well It is all there Seek and they shall find said the good lord Do a patent search and "Read All About it"
I run Arburg insertion machines back in days gone past many many years ago and they are a very good machine but any one who wants to make records on anything else apart from record presses is dreaming
or having themshelves on
Cheers
Chris
Hey Trolls, all your comments are very reasonables, but the technology that exists today is very different from 15 years ago, very different, i learned with technology from 25 years ago
With a insert press and the necessary moulds you can eject a 12" record very easy, with 50 metric tonns of closed force plus minus, the difference from a "conventional record press" is the temperatures and technics, more electricity.. but its possible, ouh yeah, the problem the money
With transparent polipropilene labels or pictures inside, no out-cuts for recycling, direct to the bag etc etc
Cheers
With a insert press and the necessary moulds you can eject a 12" record very easy, with 50 metric tonns of closed force plus minus, the difference from a "conventional record press" is the temperatures and technics, more electricity.. but its possible, ouh yeah, the problem the money
With transparent polipropilene labels or pictures inside, no out-cuts for recycling, direct to the bag etc etc
Cheers
Marcos
Presses
Marcos
I give you a tip Ask Boy Engel Battenfield Netstall Arburg or any other machine manufacturer about it
The question you ask is this: Calculate the projected area and ask them
What size machine thy make will do it Ask them for a price as well
Than sit down and think about it
Once you know let the rest of the prople here know
Cheers
I give you a tip Ask Boy Engel Battenfield Netstall Arburg or any other machine manufacturer about it
The question you ask is this: Calculate the projected area and ask them
What size machine thy make will do it Ask them for a price as well
Than sit down and think about it
Once you know let the rest of the prople here know
Cheers
Chris
Hey Chris,
Do you know how to do a cover for a motorcycle helmet? The transparent polycarbonate cover for the helmet front? in a inyection mould machine? Exactly like a record, The moulds open and the inyector put in the center the heated polycarbonate, and the inyection mould machine close the moulds, backpressures and other tecniques are unknow or no aplicated until recent years
Cheers
Do you know how to do a cover for a motorcycle helmet? The transparent polycarbonate cover for the helmet front? in a inyection mould machine? Exactly like a record, The moulds open and the inyector put in the center the heated polycarbonate, and the inyection mould machine close the moulds, backpressures and other tecniques are unknow or no aplicated until recent years
Cheers
Marcos
And i remember other question about, a granulator isnt a mill, a mill its a MILL, when you have out-cuts from a record press and you like recycling you use a mill, a granulator its other machine, its when you have a micrometric parts and you like made pellets, the machine is known internationally as granulator (some people call a wind turbine windmill)
Cheers
Cheers
Marcos
Presses
OK Marcos
I was the production Supervisor of a large European owned company in Australia with around the 400 people My responsibility was at the Injection moulding plant working with all those materials you mentioned
Most of the output was on Acrylic and poly carbonate mostly clear mainly for the automotive industry
We also double moulded as you mentioned on the helmet as well as that I was also involved in pioneering a prosses that was to injection first than blow mould clear GP styrene long before PET was on the market
Almost an indentical process back than
We also vacuum matalised and plated on ABS plastic the first plant ever to do it there one of only very few around at the time world wide
We injection moulded whole dashboards for cars as well as all other components for Ford GM as well as Toyota and Nissan
and I was in my twenties
So I also know what I am talking about as well No offence either Marcos Once you find out it would be interesting to know the results
I can always change my mind of course Only a fool sticks with his outdated or wrong view
So far I am not aware of anything to replace this VERY old technology but they still make things from cast iron like engine blocks, disc brakes, as well as a whole lot of other goods today, that is even much much older technology still however it works
Cheers
I was the production Supervisor of a large European owned company in Australia with around the 400 people My responsibility was at the Injection moulding plant working with all those materials you mentioned
Most of the output was on Acrylic and poly carbonate mostly clear mainly for the automotive industry
We also double moulded as you mentioned on the helmet as well as that I was also involved in pioneering a prosses that was to injection first than blow mould clear GP styrene long before PET was on the market
Almost an indentical process back than
We also vacuum matalised and plated on ABS plastic the first plant ever to do it there one of only very few around at the time world wide
We injection moulded whole dashboards for cars as well as all other components for Ford GM as well as Toyota and Nissan
and I was in my twenties
So I also know what I am talking about as well No offence either Marcos Once you find out it would be interesting to know the results
I can always change my mind of course Only a fool sticks with his outdated or wrong view
So far I am not aware of anything to replace this VERY old technology but they still make things from cast iron like engine blocks, disc brakes, as well as a whole lot of other goods today, that is even much much older technology still however it works
Cheers
Chris
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Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1828
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
OK so an insert moulding press uses the injection moulding proicess, is that right?
One of Arburg's first injection moulding machines for CD was a vertical machine. All others since were horizanotal. My only experience on injeciton moulding machines is with the Toolex Alpha MD100 and that looked very much like an AD1202 record press on its side. Again, it was a 3-column design for greater parellelity (is that a word? Toolex ctually used that word but not sure if its English or Swedish-English).
One of Arburg's first injection moulding machines for CD was a vertical machine. All others since were horizanotal. My only experience on injeciton moulding machines is with the Toolex Alpha MD100 and that looked very much like an AD1202 record press on its side. Again, it was a 3-column design for greater parellelity (is that a word? Toolex ctually used that word but not sure if its English or Swedish-English).
Presses
Well
The Arburgs where quite a flexible machine actually and still are They specialised in "difficult" applications
The machine could and still can run either horizontal or vertical as the whole aparatus incorporating the barrell could be turned 90 degrees
The injection taking place where the dies meet rather than the rear
I think the horizontal machines incorporated in the Alpha cd lines where made by Netstall in Switzerland a far better machine than the 'modified' Alpha record press
It makes sense to use existing design tooling knowledge etc etc so they had the first production lines for cd
If you read whats being published it was really Alpha's death sentence as they fell in hard times due to the cost's in r&d involved in keeping up with developments
It went into a reverse take over with a Dutch company listed on the stock exchange did well for a while and than its just went puff and the dragon blew its own house down
There is a Dutch company who is still offering remaining stock of Alpha cd lines as well as some plating gear on the net
When one looks at it from a distance there was allways a very active competitive market for injection moulding presses as it was and still is a very widespread active industry as opposed to record making presses which was a very small specialised field with very few players in it
All of them where commanding a very good price for their machines and they got it
Any way all this is of historicall value really There are enough machines out there to more than satisfy todays demand of vinyl records
As its been said before If all the machines which are mothballed at present where ever in production it would be an industry with overcapacity
Marcos
You should investicate the ellectrically heated moulds that Philips developed a long time ago
Than you only need a smallish oven and a 4 post press to press records at about 1/4 of what 100k Euros will buy you
and 8" records
Why not New format I am sure the T/T wont have an issue with it ha ha
Cheers
Cheers
The Arburgs where quite a flexible machine actually and still are They specialised in "difficult" applications
The machine could and still can run either horizontal or vertical as the whole aparatus incorporating the barrell could be turned 90 degrees
The injection taking place where the dies meet rather than the rear
I think the horizontal machines incorporated in the Alpha cd lines where made by Netstall in Switzerland a far better machine than the 'modified' Alpha record press
It makes sense to use existing design tooling knowledge etc etc so they had the first production lines for cd
If you read whats being published it was really Alpha's death sentence as they fell in hard times due to the cost's in r&d involved in keeping up with developments
It went into a reverse take over with a Dutch company listed on the stock exchange did well for a while and than its just went puff and the dragon blew its own house down
There is a Dutch company who is still offering remaining stock of Alpha cd lines as well as some plating gear on the net
When one looks at it from a distance there was allways a very active competitive market for injection moulding presses as it was and still is a very widespread active industry as opposed to record making presses which was a very small specialised field with very few players in it
All of them where commanding a very good price for their machines and they got it
Any way all this is of historicall value really There are enough machines out there to more than satisfy todays demand of vinyl records
As its been said before If all the machines which are mothballed at present where ever in production it would be an industry with overcapacity
Marcos
You should investicate the ellectrically heated moulds that Philips developed a long time ago
Than you only need a smallish oven and a 4 post press to press records at about 1/4 of what 100k Euros will buy you
and 8" records
Why not New format I am sure the T/T wont have an issue with it ha ha
Cheers
Cheers
Chris