1 step. Degreassing bath.

[motorino]

Hello

Im very interesting in made my stampers

I believe have all the necesary but i dont have any experience about

What soap type can use?

Proportions with water? Solution PH?

Distilled water of course? Degreassing time?

Any methods for test the best results?

Many thanks!

Marcos

[mossboss]

Marcos
This is the easy part
Soak clean in alkaline solution 35-38 Degrees C
Working Solution 40 mil of good houshold dish washing Detergent to 1-2 litres water. Morning Fresh is very good Not sure if it is available in Spain?
Trisodium phosphate/Teepol was used for years may be that is available there Any good dish washing detergent will do it any way
Soak them in that for a few minutes Use Camel hair or Squirel hair brush to dislodge any air bubles in the groove Brush them from center out than center in along the grooves
If you can find a wetting agent use a bit of that after this step Diopropion is good it is used in the dye industry to dye yarn you only need one drop per lacquer Dilute this one drop with water about 1/2 a litre brush it on and repeat the above process in the same water
Rinse with ordinary filtered water really good and use distilled or de-ionized water for final rinse only about a litre is used this saves money
Dont let them dry you need to proceed with the tin sensitising than silver than electroform them
You can silver them and keep them as long as you want but you would need to strip the silver off them before you electroform them as the silver tarnishes
If you let them dry after washing them you will get spots on them Not a big issue you just have to wash them again a waste of time
Wash them in a round plastic dish and spin rinse them in a jig
If you have a jig to spin them fine If not you can knock one up it is really simple If you doing this the speed is about 78 rpm Above that speed you get you will get straight radiating streaks out from the centre bellow that speed centrifugal marks So about 78 is right a bit up or down, you need to do a few with a simple speed control on the motor so as to get it right for the 10's and the 14's
You may also place them in an accurate temperature controlled oven overnight at 35-38 degrees C so as to sweat out any of the volatile oils and solvents that may be present in them this makes washing much easier overall
This is not done nowdays or on all of them however sometimes you will get one or two that just refuses to clean up so you do it than
When they are clean water seems to form an unbroken film over them If the film is broken or patchy repeat the process if water refuses to form an even film on them If repeated washing does not do it you sweat them out as above
So Marcos!
Welcome to the nightmare of electroforming record matrixes
By the way have you an electro system already? Galvanic in your parts of the woods
Cheers

[motorino]

WOW! Many thanks Mossboss!

A luxe!

Yes i found some very old scrap industrial coatings for nickel but im able to make a electroforming tank

I have all the necessary only need know the technics for! Timers, motors, precision and powerful dc supplies, silver nitrate, tin clohride, nickel sulfamate and cathodes.... and a very old crank struder with carbon-water heat made in Spain after civil war!!

I have a powerfull manual hidraulic press i try press 7" without steam only electric heat coils and silicone demouldants and only need time for test more

A lot of work but my name its bricolator my intention its know for the future... isnt a game

I go to open the 2 step

Many many thanks!

[mossboss]

Marcos OK this is for electroforming
Don't worry it's not that hard to set up If you have tanks for electroplating it is OK make sure there is no metal exposed must be all plastic or ruber coated Any transformer from an electroplating shop will do the job If you are only going to run one cell you need to get up to about 80 Amps for a square foot (Will check on this) at about 10 volts but in three steps
You need a small tank for preplating unless you can get your main trannies down to 2 volts at about 10-15 amps DC and you need rotation for the plates otherwise uneven deposit's Not good
I will post up some well and tried out formula's (formuli) for you as well for the rest to see as we don't want to keep them secret now do we?
Also some simple rotating top's as well as sophisticated one's (modern) just for you (lucky man) since you are keen to go
Need to buy a flat bed scanner and learn how to use it so I can post up these stuff so be patient However keep asking questions and I will do my best to answer them
Cheers

[mossboss]

WOW! Many thanks Mossboss!

A luxe!

I have a powerfull manual hidraulic press i try press 7" without steam only electric heat coils and silicone demouldants and only need time for test more

Many many thanks!

Marcos
Bad move You can get an electric steam generator from a dry cleaning shop at about 3.6 KW 15 Amps at 240 V ac they will do the trick They not expensive about $1000 here used
I am sure you can get 10 x 200 Litre drums hooked together so as to have 2000 L of water to pump through the die and another ten empty ones to dump it in
You can make a cooler as well Just use some straw 50mm thick by about 1 sq M to pour the heated water down to beforehand Place a decent fan behind it and Well it works Like an evaporative cooling system They work on the same principle
Water for cooling is not a big deal you do need a high pressure pump at about 700-800 KPa about 100 psi to shift the water through the dies A steam valve and a water valve and a couple of controls
If you are to heat the dies with electric elements you will have to WAIT a long time so as to cool down the plastic before you open the press to get it out at about 25-30 degrees C If you do cool them down the inverse applies you have to wait until it gets up to 150-160 degrees C for the next one
If the press opens while the plastic is still soft it rips the plates out of the moulds Not good
Dont go down the path of silicon mould release They cook on the plates It is not the silicon itself but some of the stabilisers or whatever is used in them
They stain the plates no amount of polishing will get the stuff off them once it is ther it is there forever You make stained ugly looking records
There is nothing you will try that has not been tried before So for your sake don't try to reinvent the wheel It will cost you lot less in time money and effort to stick with steam and water for the job
For automation/Control I can suggest:
A small PLC will do the trick rather than the old style of timers galore
Regardless I can send you a control system to knock up if you want it It is all solid state with 555 timer chips and led display as well as some low cost relays It was modern in 1980 any way by comparison to the one that it replaced It also includes all of the metal work
If you can machine and make a cutting lathe as well as all the elctronics you can do that I have seen in your post's here the above should be a walk in the park for you
My post's are usually long as I want to make sure the msg gets across No offence I hope
(This is no exception )
Cheers

[João Augusto]

Dear Mossboss,
Hedre is Joao Augusto, from Brasil. Once we have faced some problems during our silvering.pre-plating process, I found this text from you. May I ask you some questions?
1) Our formulation for washing soak solution is made with 75grams of trisodium phosphate plus 40 grams of sodium hydroxide plus 20 grams of Laurel Sodium Sulphate for 3 litres of distilled water. Considering that we are keeping the lacquer soaking for about ten minutes, do you think that this formulation can cause some problem in our process?
2) You say that the wetting agent (in our case, the Laurel) shoud be used after washing process with just one drop. Once Laurel is a powder, how must we make the solution to get this only drop you suggested?
3) How and for how long should we apply the wetting agent?
4) After using the wetting agent, must we go back to the washing process?
Well, we will appreciate your response.
Cheers!
Joao Augusto

[mossboss]

1) Our formulation for washing soak solution is made with 75grams of trisodium phosphate plus 40 grams of sodium hydroxide plus 20 grams of Laurel Sodium Sulphate for 3 litres of distilled water. Considering that we are keeping the lacquer soaking for about ten minutes, do you think that this formulation can cause some problem in our process?

This is a standard cleaning formula that should work

2) You say that the wetting agent (in our case, the Laurel) shoud be used after washing process with just one drop. Once Laurel is a powder, how must we make the solution to get this only drop you suggested?

My suggestion for 1 drop is for Diopropion not Laurel We found it better so we use it instead

3) How and for how long should we apply the wetting agent?[quote="João Augusto"

We do about 3-5 minutes with Diopropion You may experiment with laurel in various concentartions so as to get it right I would sart with the recomended dilution and go from there

4) After using the wetting agent, must we go back to the washing process?

Absolutely needs to be D water at least one L after you have used filtered water
Here are some tips for you
OK Do you scrape the rear and edges of the lacquer before or after you wash them?
If you do before hand the hydroxide used in your cleaning formulae will eat away at the aluminium substrate which will cause you problems
It is suggested that if you do scrape them before hand minimise the soaking period so as to minimize that
You can tell if the wetting process has worked as it will have an even film of water hanging on without streaks or dull spots or the film of water getting broken on the face of the lacquer
When mixing the Silver nitrate do you titrate to the end point with Ammonia or just mix arbitarily with a standing formula or method?
You need to get the solution completely clear by adding drop by drop until end point is reached
It than needs to be filtered with a whitman fliter prior to spraying
The reason for that is that the silver content in the nitrate can vary between 60-64% so one needs to be extra carefull on a per batch basis
I would have thought firstly you need to have a look again at your existing process as it may need some slight adjustments with your existing methods
It is a well tested process that has worked for many years it should work for you as well So have another look and see if there are any shortcomings
You are not telling me anything about your pre plating issues so I am unable to offer you any input there
However I can sense that you are getting failures due to silvering
Hope this helps but come back here if not I am sure we can figure it out
Cheers

[motorino]

Many thanks again Chris, a Master class

I am preparing the molds for them in a inyection press, i have a lot of different resines with special color pigments.... manufacturing remains, rests

Near where i work there is a old industry where galvanize, chrome, nickel, dont knows the records process but are professionals and your help... now i have a lot of work with the moulds ^^ f***ing inserts and steam! i believe my cycle will go slow.

Cheers

[blacknwhite]

I am preparing the molds for them in a inyection press, i have a lot of different resines with special color pigments.... manufacturing remains, rests

Hi Motorino,

If you come up with a new type of record which is much cheaper / easier / whatever to manufacture, and you think it stands a good chance of becoming a very popular method of record-making, please be sure and play-test it on repeated plays using older, heavier pickups on changers, too (use auto-repeat function).

Failure to do this back in the 1950's resulted in "the injection-molded styrene invasion", which I'm sure you know about... it was TERRIBLE. Some companies even made LP's out of injection-molded polystyrene for a while. Some made 7-inch singles that way for Decades.

These injection-molded styrene records were much faster & therefore cheaper to manufacture, but wore out MUCH faster, sometimes even on the FIRST PLAY on older heavier pickups, and are generally hated by collectors. I think this manufacturing process was used mainly just in the USA, 1950s-1980s, and mainly for 7-inch singles.

Good luck, your experiments sound exciting, and your posts are fun to read!

- Bob

[João Augusto]

Many thanks for your attention and kindness, Chris.
Well, I would like to describe all the process we are following, including pre-plating. Hope it won't bother you, but I confess that wait for your analysis.
After use the sandpaper and scrap edges and rear of center hole, we wash the lacquer with d water and put it soaking for 10 minutes on to washing solution that we already described.
After that, wash it with filtered water and d water and go to "capella" (jig) to spray the stannous solution (5 grams of stannous cloreto plus 10 mil of Concentrated Hydrochloric Acid for 1 liter of d water).
After, more d water and finnaly the silvering solution and reducer.
A) Silvering solution:
- (Stock 1) 200 grams of Silver Nitrate for 1 Litre of D water
- (Stock 2) 100 grams of NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide) for 1 litre of D water
Mix 50 mil of Stock 1 to 1 litre of D water. Add 36 mil of Stock 2 and use ammonia up to clear the solution.
B) Reducer: 100 grs of Dextrose Anidra for 1 liter of D Water

Spray for about 20 seconds up to the silver look uniform.
Wash with d water and go to pre-platting bath at 35oC for 40 minutes (7,5 amp up to 15 minutes; 15 amp to 20 minutes; 18 amp to the end).

Conditions of pre-plating bath:
270 Litres
Nickel Sulfamate (Ni (NH2 SO3)2 . 4 H2O) - 380 to 410 grams/litre
Nickel Choride (Ni Cl2. 6 H2O) - 4,7 g/l
Boric Acid (H3BO3)
pH - 4,0

Well, this is a brief description of our process and would appreciate your comments.
Many thanks,
Joao Augusto

[mossboss]

OK here we go
I did posted here a good recipe please have a look at it It is not dissimillar to yours
I am a bit concerned about your nickel content in your baths
it should be around the 76-80 grams per litre
Boric acid to saturation according to temperature
pH should be down to 3.8 raising to 4 after quite a few runs at which point you should bring it down with Nickel Carbonate slurry on the filters
This does two things it will replenish the sulfamate solution with ions as it is an iron donor and since it is highly acidic it will bring down the ph to the desired level
If you have 100% efficiency you will strip all the nickel out of solution you want to aim at around the 96-98% so as to keep nickel content at around the 76-80 grams per litre
The 2-4% will find its way into the solution by default as it will not get on to the Cathode
Boric acid is only a pH buffer which resists changes at 3 points up to around 4-4.5 so it may seem a pain to adjust it downwards until you break the resistance point It than falls like a lead baloon
So you need to presevere with it Once there you will find very little pH change if any for a long time
OK here how it goes
When we plate we in essence break down water to its constituents so we produce O and H now the oxygen will oxidise quite quickly however the H will hang around in solution altering pH, pH is a measure of hydrogen concentration in a solid or solution
I would suggest that due to shutting down starting up you place boric acid in anode style bags and hang them in the bath or else it will percipitate out of the solution at lower temperatures resulting in a rough finish
Chlorides in electroforming are bad but at your level it should be ok However you will get tensile stress regardless
You know that as when you form the centre the metal splits around the part below the angle and I bet you you have that issue
One aims at a ductile electroform and you will never get this with any chlorides in your baths
If you do a simple test like this you will know
Take a strip you just cut of from a plate from the circle cutter
Hold it in a pair of plyers tight
Bend it to the left and than to the right 180 degrees until it breaks clean or you feel it giving way
If you get 3-4 bends you are on borderline if you get 5 bends is just ok
If you can get 7 bends you are looking very good indeed and anything above that you are for the books of master electroformer man
Ok a bit more
Are you using S nickel rounds Sulfur Depolirised? than there is no need for Nickel sulphide
They will corrode very well
I will look at your other steps carefully and revert to you as it takes a bit more than a brief look but your bath composition jumped at me
Having said that a higher nickel content is good for high speed but it kills throwing power
Are you using antipit and any wetters? let me know
Cheers

[João Augusto]

Dear Chris,
Could you please describe an ideal bath (pre-plating and plating) contents of Nickel metal, Boric Acid, Nickel Chloride and Nickel Sulfamate?
Answering your question, I think that we are not using antipiting or wetters. Should we? In case positive, which kind of?
And just to let you know that I made a mistake and did not inform you that our measure of Boric Acid was 31,0 gr/litre.
Thanks,

[mossboss]

Hello
Look my friend I have posted enough information in just replying to your querys so as for you to figure out what you need to do
It seems to me that you are not a plating man but a follower of some written instructions without an innate understanding of the process
This is really not an issue so do not get this wrong However if you or any one else thinks they will get average, mediocre or excellent results by asking questions on a forum about such an intricate as well as complicated process frought with unknowns I am afraid I have to dissapoint you It does not work like that and there is no such thing as IDEAL, it is like Utopia it does not exist
So my advise will be to join www.finishing.com and ask away mate
The Nickel Sulfamate bath has been the same since Mr Barrett introduced it to the world after being invented in Italy for another process some 10-15 years earlier
It has been around since the 1940-50 and it has served countless of applications since than, it has not changed Sir, but having said that it is an excellent starting point and that is where it has allways being
How, when, why, has to come by doing it, besides understanding the process in all it's facets, therefore a 4-5 year apprentiship is the norm in the industry in so far as elctroplating is concerned and for every 1000 electroplaters there is 10 electroformers and that is what we do Sir when we make pressing plates for Vinyl Records
Cheers

[João Augusto]

Dear Sir,
Yes, you are correct: I am not a plating man. I am the owner of the only vinyl plant in South America and unfortunately the only person who speaks/writes in english there. So, I can be called as the translator of the real plating men.
No, I am not a follower of “some written instructions without an innate understanding of the process”. We have restarted the plant last december (it was closed due to financial difficulties) and since then we’ve got a lot of good results. But in the last 2 months we have had problems, not constantly, with blistering, cracking and noise.
We are in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and the nearest vinyl plant equipped with plating rooms stays far from here more than 6.000 miles. So, any reasonable information we can get through a so good forum would be of great importance.
I am 54 and all success I have reached in my life result from my respect to experts, my avalilability to listen to them and to learn with them. I can guarantee that old and experienced men were very important in all my life and career. So, I believe in asking questions and take note of useful responses.
Prior to joinning this forum, I spent a lot of time, days, figuring out how to approach the experts to have some information and, more important, which kind of information these experts were willing to open. By your posts at this Forum, I realized that besides a great engineer, you were patient, generous in explaining and keen to help and to teach anyone to make the process well. I thought that it was the target of this forum.
My mistake. I am very sorry for that.
Sincerely,
Joao Augusto.

Hello
Look my friend I have posted enough information in just replying to your querys so as for you to figure out what you need to do
It seems to me that you are not a plating man but a follower of some written instructions without an innate understanding of the process
This is really not an issue so do not get this wrong However if you or any one else thinks they will get average, mediocre or excellent results by asking questions on a forum about such an intricate as well as complicated process frought with unknowns I am afraid I have to dissapoint you It does not work like that and there is no such thing as IDEAL, it is like Utopia it does not exist
So my advise will be to join www.finishing.com and ask away mate
The Nickel Sulfamate bath has been the same since Mr Barrett introduced it to the world after being invented in Italy for another process some 10-15 years earlier
It has been around since the 1940-50 and it has served countless of applications since than, it has not changed Sir, but having said that it is an excellent starting point and that is where it has allways being
How, when, why, has to come by doing it, besides understanding the process in all it's facets, therefore a 4-5 year apprentiship is the norm in the industry in so far as elctroplating is concerned and for every 1000 electroplaters there is 10 electroformers and that is what we do Sir when we make pressing plates for Vinyl Records
Cheers

[Aussie0zborn]

Joao, welcome to the forum. We are glad to hear that you have re-activated the PolySom vinyl plant in Brazil.

Electroforning for the record indutry has always been considered a "black art" and for good reason.

If you follow the recommedations here Im sure you will be on the right track, You do need to use an anti-pitting agent. If you get stuck, you can always get your stampers made by Mastercraft in the USA so that you dont hold up production.

By the way, your plant looks good. What happened to the Alpha Toolex 10H537 (or 11H537) press they had sitting there in the corner in those old YouTube videos?

[João Augusto]

Dear Aussie Ozborn.
Thanks for your message.
Some infos here are bit confuse for us, but we are trying to compile then.
Could you please explain what exactly is the anti-pitting agent and how to apply it? Maybe we use something like that, but we don't know it under the name anti-pitting.
Regarding the Mastercraft, I've heard about (is it in Boston?), but surely it will be very expensive to platting in USA due to customs and freight cost envolved.
I will figure out about the Alpha Toolex and let you know soon.
Thanks again,
Joao Augusto

Joao, welcome to the forum. We are glad to hear that you have re-activated the PolySom vinyl plant in Brazil.

Electroforning for the record indutry has always been considered a "black art" and for good reason.

If you follow the recommedations here Im sure you will be on the right track, You do need to use an anti-pitting agent. If you get stuck, you can always get your stampers made by Mastercraft in the USA so that you dont hold up production.

By the way, your plant looks good. What happened to the Alpha Toolex 10H537 (or 11H537) press they had sitting there in the corner in those old YouTube videos?

[motorino]

I am preparing the molds for them in a inyection press, i have a lot of different resines with special color pigments.... manufacturing remains, rests

Hi Motorino,

If you come up with a new type of record which is much cheaper / easier / whatever to manufacture, and you think it stands a good chance of becoming a very popular method of record-making, please be sure and play-test it on repeated plays using older, heavier pickups on changers, too (use auto-repeat function).

Failure to do this back in the 1950's resulted in "the injection-molded styrene invasion", which I'm sure you know about... it was TERRIBLE. Some companies even made LP's out of injection-molded polystyrene for a while. Some made 7-inch singles that way for Decades.

These injection-molded styrene records were much faster & therefore cheaper to manufacture, but wore out MUCH faster, sometimes even on the FIRST PLAY on older heavier pickups, and are generally hated by collectors. I think this manufacturing process was used mainly just in the USA, 1950s-1980s, and mainly for 7-inch singles.

Good luck, your experiments sound exciting, and your posts are fun to read!

- Bob