speed of the press ram
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speed of the press ram
hello everyone! hope to have an opportunity to start vinyl pressing lab and the first question i've faced when choosing an appropriate press is what is the optimal speed of the press ram? have read a lot about how it is important for quality pressing, but didn't find answer, what speed is the best.
as fast as possible 
no, not correct, fast closing is good to have a
good performance, and many records per hour,
but:
at toolex, you can adjust the "last" closing speed,
too fast is not good, because label can crack.
most important thing is to have a stable steam @ approx. 12bar/180degrees.
good luck!
no, not correct, fast closing is good to have a
good performance, and many records per hour,
but:
at toolex, you can adjust the "last" closing speed,
too fast is not good, because label can crack.
most important thing is to have a stable steam @ approx. 12bar/180degrees.
good luck!
-
montalbano
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Settala (MI), Italy
- Contact:
Labels will crack when the label area is not scratched. The ram speed is not so important for this specific issue. If the label has a mirror surface on its back, it will crack. If the scratched diameter is not wide enough, the same will happen.
We do this job directly to the lacquer, before galvanics, but you can do it on the stamper as well. You can leave the outer 10mm unscratched, just to avoid touching the leadout final groove.
As for the ram rising speed, the bigger risk of a very fast speed is to get a non fill on the record. And yes, it is a combination of steam and pressure. So it will depend on the steam pressure, on the temperature of the puck, on the compound, and yes, if the steam is German probably you will get a more German record but PSI and °C are the same all over the world.
Toolexs have a spindle connected to a micro switch to carefully adjust the speed of the last mm of run of the ram. This micro switch will activate an hydraulic valve which will divert the oil flow to another circuit. There are flow regulators in the side of the block. But it's not the same for all Toolexs. I mean you can't set a general rule, and for what I've explained above there is not a "suggested" ram rising speed.
It is too complex to explain in just a few lines, because it depends on the hydraulic block and hydraulic engine of the press. There are Toolexs running with mono-pressure systems and Toolexs running with double pressure systems. With a mono pressure system, there are the spindle and the micro doing the trick.
With a double pressure system, which is very common and usually has an accumulator on the low pressure circuit to achieve a faster rising of the ram in the first seconds, the use of that spindle is not really necessary as you can get the same result by using a pressure switch. When a certain pressure is reached, the flow is diverted to the high pressure circuit which will cause the ram to rise slower for the simple reason that less volume of oil will be pumped at a higher pressure. So more pressing power, but less speed. And if you set the pressure switch so that it will happen in the very last mm of run of the ram, you will do the trick.
German steam, Italian oil ... Australian beer ...
We do this job directly to the lacquer, before galvanics, but you can do it on the stamper as well. You can leave the outer 10mm unscratched, just to avoid touching the leadout final groove.
As for the ram rising speed, the bigger risk of a very fast speed is to get a non fill on the record. And yes, it is a combination of steam and pressure. So it will depend on the steam pressure, on the temperature of the puck, on the compound, and yes, if the steam is German probably you will get a more German record but PSI and °C are the same all over the world.
Toolexs have a spindle connected to a micro switch to carefully adjust the speed of the last mm of run of the ram. This micro switch will activate an hydraulic valve which will divert the oil flow to another circuit. There are flow regulators in the side of the block. But it's not the same for all Toolexs. I mean you can't set a general rule, and for what I've explained above there is not a "suggested" ram rising speed.
It is too complex to explain in just a few lines, because it depends on the hydraulic block and hydraulic engine of the press. There are Toolexs running with mono-pressure systems and Toolexs running with double pressure systems. With a mono pressure system, there are the spindle and the micro doing the trick.
With a double pressure system, which is very common and usually has an accumulator on the low pressure circuit to achieve a faster rising of the ram in the first seconds, the use of that spindle is not really necessary as you can get the same result by using a pressure switch. When a certain pressure is reached, the flow is diverted to the high pressure circuit which will cause the ram to rise slower for the simple reason that less volume of oil will be pumped at a higher pressure. So more pressing power, but less speed. And if you set the pressure switch so that it will happen in the very last mm of run of the ram, you will do the trick.
German steam, Italian oil ... Australian beer ...
Phil from Phono Press, Milan, Italy
http://www.phonopress.it
http://www.phonopress.it
Its best I shut Up than (Can I? No)
To many suggestions here to a simple question really
Look mate Just buy a record press like an SMT there is on offer here for $14K All your answers will be there many thousnds have been made over many years
If you dont have the cash I then would suggest to look up DIY record press right here by our Mark Robinson
The speed of this is hard to imagine but it does make a record
By the way to all others who are looking for Info's
Try making picture discs with anything faster then watching grass grow
Cheers
To many suggestions here to a simple question really
Look mate Just buy a record press like an SMT there is on offer here for $14K All your answers will be there many thousnds have been made over many years
If you dont have the cash I then would suggest to look up DIY record press right here by our Mark Robinson
The speed of this is hard to imagine but it does make a record
By the way to all others who are looking for Info's
Try making picture discs with anything faster then watching grass grow
Cheers
Chris
one of the threads was about pops and you answered that press speed might be to high.. and who offers a press? where is it now? i guess delivery to russia will be rather expensive, won't it be cheaper to make own diy press asking some questions to lathe trolls?mossboss wrote:Its best I shut Up than (Can I? No)
To many suggestions here to a simple question really
Look mate Just buy a record press like an SMT there is on offer here for $14K All your answers will be there many thousnds have been made over many years
If you dont have the cash I then would suggest to look up DIY record press right here by our Mark Robinson
The speed of this is hard to imagine but it does make a record
By the way to all others who are looking for Info's
Try making picture discs with anything faster then watching grass grow
Cheers
He J
Melodyia was one of two plants that had presses in Russia
It was also the only CD plant in early days but all the CD's made there where exported
It was given a crazy name like EnglishRussia or such like
Any way the plant dissapeared and no one seems to know what happened to it or its presses
These where the last presses that Alpha Toolex made late 1982
CD was already looming or on the markets by than
Abba had a CD out in 1981 a Dire Straights CD was ready a few months later being released also in late 1981
But That is all history just like the Russian plant
In other words unlike the rest of the world where there was a number of plants in Communist Russia only two plants where known
One that it seems it may be pressing records today dating pre Lenin or revolution time and Melodyia established some time later
(I posted a reference to the first plant here some time back)
So looking for presses in Russia is akin to one looking for Rocking Horse shit
Cheers
Cheers
Melodyia was one of two plants that had presses in Russia
It was also the only CD plant in early days but all the CD's made there where exported
It was given a crazy name like EnglishRussia or such like
Any way the plant dissapeared and no one seems to know what happened to it or its presses
These where the last presses that Alpha Toolex made late 1982
CD was already looming or on the markets by than
Abba had a CD out in 1981 a Dire Straights CD was ready a few months later being released also in late 1981
But That is all history just like the Russian plant
In other words unlike the rest of the world where there was a number of plants in Communist Russia only two plants where known
One that it seems it may be pressing records today dating pre Lenin or revolution time and Melodyia established some time later
(I posted a reference to the first plant here some time back)
So looking for presses in Russia is akin to one looking for Rocking Horse shit
Cheers
Cheers
Chris
[/quote]one of the threads was about pops and you answered that press speed might be to high.. and who offers a press? where is it now? i guess delivery to russia will be rather expensive, won't it be cheaper to make own diy press asking some questions to lathe trolls?[/quote]
Kvasis
Mate Lets keep it simple
A press will make 1000 records a day every day in around 8-12 hours Assume that you charge $1 each record that is $1000 per day,
On the proviso that you can sell them of course But that is not the point
So for a machine that is capable of generating around say $2-300,000 per year in revenue and say 10% profit what is it that one is expected to pay for such a piece of equipment?
Do your homework mate and see what it is that you want to do Let me tell you this
If you want to be in this game and want a small setup with say two machines 1 x 12" and 1 x 7" Budget for around the USD $100,000
As this is what is going to cost you or any one else for that matter
So I will make a list for you Now
2 presses say $15 K each
Hydraulics say $10 K
Steam Boiler say $5 K
Air compressor say $2 K
Vacuum pump say $2 K
Cooling tower say $5 K
High pressure pump & recirc pump say $3K
Electrics say $5 K
Steam and water lines say $5 K
Steam and water valves say $3 K
Granulator, Mill in German say $2 K
Forming and centering gear say 2.5 K
A set of 12" moulds $5K
A set of 7" moulds $3.5 K
Pins and bushes say $2 K
Necessary spares say $1 K
Instalation of machines fork lift, crane, shifting and locating say $5 K
Auxilaries, Hand tools benches packing tables bits and pieces say $1 K
Than you need premisses 3 phase power of course natural gas or oil or LPG for the boiler Space for the cooling tower or on the roof
And do not forget about 3 months of time which is cost of rent or cost of money as well as some working capital say another 10K
One tonne of PVC cost you about $3K and a tank of oil about $1 K inner sleeves disco bags another $2K
Now you can total all this up
By the way one or two machines makes little difference as you still need all the peripheral
I can assure you that this is a quick list No doubt I have missed a thing or two
So here is a rough guide in setting up a pressing plant with mostly used equipment
It will be at least double that for new gear apart from presses of course as they are no longer available
By the way
If you where to do that in 1970-80 you needed to tripple that ammount
ONE Alpha Toolex press alone would have Costed you USD $78,000 on its own mate
Enjoy the reading
Oh yes keep on asking the trolls indeed but it is what it is mate
If you or any one else thinks it is just the press that one needs well it is a big mistake
The press is the least expensive item as you can see for your self
The Devil is in the details
Oh there are enough stories here with people who just decide that it is like a walk in the park
Buy one or two presses so as to get and enjoy the fruits of Record pressing
Two things happen
Either the presses gather dust in some warehouse or they set them up run out of money than go bust sell the machines off to another naive person
Oh forgot the ones the do not go bust guess what they do
Press Pirated Bootlegs or counterfeit records until they get caught which happens every now and than
Great
And yes I know You are smart so are others you will do it at half that or even less
Thats because you are an engineer and you have a friend that is an electrician and his friend is a plumber and another guy who is a machinist who has a friend that is a hydraulics expert as well as all these you also know a guy that knows another guy who can make the moulds at half that cost and mossy is talking shit tralalalalalalala
Yes it is possible to do the above
You than need to extend the time frame to two to three years as none of these guys will do it in their working time but only in they spare time which will be at their choosing not yours
Heard it and seen it all before more than once
Be realistic take the above as a very good but not definitive guideline do your homework
Do it if it stacks up for you
Money is hard to get and to waste it in a half cocked effort to me is a shame
You get all the help you need from all here
No doubt about that
But take the above SERIOUSLY
Cheers
I just dont get it
Kvasis
Mate Lets keep it simple
A press will make 1000 records a day every day in around 8-12 hours Assume that you charge $1 each record that is $1000 per day,
On the proviso that you can sell them of course But that is not the point
So for a machine that is capable of generating around say $2-300,000 per year in revenue and say 10% profit what is it that one is expected to pay for such a piece of equipment?
Do your homework mate and see what it is that you want to do Let me tell you this
If you want to be in this game and want a small setup with say two machines 1 x 12" and 1 x 7" Budget for around the USD $100,000
As this is what is going to cost you or any one else for that matter
So I will make a list for you Now
2 presses say $15 K each
Hydraulics say $10 K
Steam Boiler say $5 K
Air compressor say $2 K
Vacuum pump say $2 K
Cooling tower say $5 K
High pressure pump & recirc pump say $3K
Electrics say $5 K
Steam and water lines say $5 K
Steam and water valves say $3 K
Granulator, Mill in German say $2 K
Forming and centering gear say 2.5 K
A set of 12" moulds $5K
A set of 7" moulds $3.5 K
Pins and bushes say $2 K
Necessary spares say $1 K
Instalation of machines fork lift, crane, shifting and locating say $5 K
Auxilaries, Hand tools benches packing tables bits and pieces say $1 K
Than you need premisses 3 phase power of course natural gas or oil or LPG for the boiler Space for the cooling tower or on the roof
And do not forget about 3 months of time which is cost of rent or cost of money as well as some working capital say another 10K
One tonne of PVC cost you about $3K and a tank of oil about $1 K inner sleeves disco bags another $2K
Now you can total all this up
By the way one or two machines makes little difference as you still need all the peripheral
I can assure you that this is a quick list No doubt I have missed a thing or two
So here is a rough guide in setting up a pressing plant with mostly used equipment
It will be at least double that for new gear apart from presses of course as they are no longer available
By the way
If you where to do that in 1970-80 you needed to tripple that ammount
ONE Alpha Toolex press alone would have Costed you USD $78,000 on its own mate
Enjoy the reading
Oh yes keep on asking the trolls indeed but it is what it is mate
If you or any one else thinks it is just the press that one needs well it is a big mistake
The press is the least expensive item as you can see for your self
The Devil is in the details
Oh there are enough stories here with people who just decide that it is like a walk in the park
Buy one or two presses so as to get and enjoy the fruits of Record pressing
Two things happen
Either the presses gather dust in some warehouse or they set them up run out of money than go bust sell the machines off to another naive person
Oh forgot the ones the do not go bust guess what they do
Press Pirated Bootlegs or counterfeit records until they get caught which happens every now and than
Great
And yes I know You are smart so are others you will do it at half that or even less
Thats because you are an engineer and you have a friend that is an electrician and his friend is a plumber and another guy who is a machinist who has a friend that is a hydraulics expert as well as all these you also know a guy that knows another guy who can make the moulds at half that cost and mossy is talking shit tralalalalalalala
Yes it is possible to do the above
You than need to extend the time frame to two to three years as none of these guys will do it in their working time but only in they spare time which will be at their choosing not yours
Heard it and seen it all before more than once
Be realistic take the above as a very good but not definitive guideline do your homework
Do it if it stacks up for you
Money is hard to get and to waste it in a half cocked effort to me is a shame
You get all the help you need from all here
No doubt about that
But take the above SERIOUSLY
Cheers
I just dont get it
Chris
Hey Mossboss,
as I live not far (300km) from the mastering, plating and pressing plant in Riga (Latvia) I can tell that even for me (knowing the language) is like stone in the ocean. I cannot find anyone that knows something about it and where everything gone. As I know what new owners of buildings are doing to the equipment or archives of records I can tell that 99 percent of reality is that everything was thrown to metal trash including mastering lathe with everything.
I am not talking about former pressing plant in Riga I am talking about everything what happens here. Estonia Latvia Lithuania were in Soviet union so mentality quite same.... When I worked in Lithuania Film Studio I saw with my own eyes - precision tables and equipment were thrown from the 3rd flood directly on the concrete. Just before that truck of equipment like studio reel recorders (including Nagra's), cinema projectors and more stuff were thrown to metal trash plant.
Getting back to soviet pressing plant in Riga I cannot find any clue what happened to it. And I am still looking for information about it. Maybe some day I will find someone who know the history.
as I live not far (300km) from the mastering, plating and pressing plant in Riga (Latvia) I can tell that even for me (knowing the language) is like stone in the ocean. I cannot find anyone that knows something about it and where everything gone. As I know what new owners of buildings are doing to the equipment or archives of records I can tell that 99 percent of reality is that everything was thrown to metal trash including mastering lathe with everything.
I am not talking about former pressing plant in Riga I am talking about everything what happens here. Estonia Latvia Lithuania were in Soviet union so mentality quite same.... When I worked in Lithuania Film Studio I saw with my own eyes - precision tables and equipment were thrown from the 3rd flood directly on the concrete. Just before that truck of equipment like studio reel recorders (including Nagra's), cinema projectors and more stuff were thrown to metal trash plant.
Getting back to soviet pressing plant in Riga I cannot find any clue what happened to it. And I am still looking for information about it. Maybe some day I will find someone who know the history.
mossboss wrote:He J
Melodyia was one of two plants that had presses in Russia
It was also the only CD plant in early days but all the CD's made there where exported
It was given a crazy name like EnglishRussia or such like
Any way the plant dissapeared and no one seems to know what happened to it or its presses
These where the last presses that Alpha Toolex made late 1982
CD was already looming or on the markets by than
Abba had a CD out in 1981 a Dire Straights CD was ready a few months later being released also in late 1981
But That is all history just like the Russian plant
In other words unlike the rest of the world where there was a number of plants in Communist Russia only two plants where known
One that it seems it may be pressing records today dating pre Lenin or revolution time and Melodyia established some time later
(I posted a reference to the first plant here some time back)
So looking for presses in Russia is akin to one looking for Rocking Horse shit
Cheers
Cheers
thanks boss for such an inspirational post! i was never thinking that pressing records is that easy. i know that all the details are important, i understand that it'll take long time. but still, the aim is sublime and yes, you were right i'm an engineer. and i can see that prices you posted here are a bit overestimated in some positions. why are you taking so much for water lines and valves? at least 8k! and you forgot about an extruder..
but anyway as you still gonna help me, tell me please how much steam do i need for heating molds? what is the productivity of a stem boiler should be?
but anyway as you still gonna help me, tell me please how much steam do i need for heating molds? what is the productivity of a stem boiler should be?
oh man, mossy has forgotten the extruder....
it should be included within the press!
Think also about a galvanic department, and a cutting stuidio
and add minimum another 50.000 Dollarios.
Mossys prices are well bestimated, sometimes you have to
pay more (if you need it), the next day you get lucky, and buy
maybe a cooling tower for some small money...
I payed arround 2000 Euro only for tubing for one press,
you need some special tubes for steam and other "special things"...
think about 220kg/h steam for one 12" automatic press,
stable @ 12bar (by the way, I prefer the german steam)
good luck!
it should be included within the press!
Think also about a galvanic department, and a cutting stuidio
and add minimum another 50.000 Dollarios.
Mossys prices are well bestimated, sometimes you have to
pay more (if you need it), the next day you get lucky, and buy
maybe a cooling tower for some small money...
I payed arround 2000 Euro only for tubing for one press,
you need some special tubes for steam and other "special things"...
think about 220kg/h steam for one 12" automatic press,
stable @ 12bar (by the way, I prefer the german steam)
good luck!
-
rabbit_tuszyn
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:25 am
I read that in the time of closure of Aprelevka (about 1995), has been around 150 Alpha Toolex presses!!!
Below 2 pics of Aprelevka, from 1985 and 1980.
But on first foto(know, small size, low quality), if I see well, is a Lened press (on left side).
Probably in Russia or in Latvia or in Poland, we will not find equipment for the production of vinyl records, probably...
http://img192.imageshack.us/i/74029464.jpg
http://img688.imageshack.us/i/72741432.jpg
Below 2 pics of Aprelevka, from 1985 and 1980.
But on first foto(know, small size, low quality), if I see well, is a Lened press (on left side).
Probably in Russia or in Latvia or in Poland, we will not find equipment for the production of vinyl records, probably...
http://img192.imageshack.us/i/74029464.jpg
http://img688.imageshack.us/i/72741432.jpg
-
subkontrabob
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:40 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
d wrote:When I worked in Lithuania Film Studio I saw with my own eyes - precision tables and equipment were thrown from the 3rd flood directly on the concrete. Just before that truck of equipment like studio reel recorders (including Nagra's), cinema projectors and more stuff were thrown to metal trash plant.
makes me cry..........
"Zwei Dinge sind unendlich, das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit, aber bei dem Universum bin ich mir noch nicht ganz sicher."
Albert Einstein
Yep, that makes cry.... Even when someone can take care of that equipment they are not even try to sell them because there is a lot trouble with papers and so on. So they make public sell very quietly and of course when nobody knows there are no buyers. When the auctions comes to the end they just throwing out. They do not care about it. Even government doesn't care because they sell the building with the rights to the whole sound archive which was growing for 30 years. Thats the real life.
