good question...
any experiences ?
or reason...
Why nobody use diamond to cut laquers ?
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concretecowboy71
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My guess would be that you don't need to use one, so why incur the cost of using one. Lacquers seem to be pretty soft and with the use of heated styli, it would seem to be overkill to use diamond.
I am in no way an expert, but that is my guess.
I am in no way an expert, but that is my guess.
Cutting Masters in Bristol,Virginia, USA
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records
Well Made Music / Gotta Groove Records
Not sure if diamond styli have bunishing facets. I know the ones from The Shank dont. Those facets insure a clean cut and a polish inner wall while cutting away the chip. Without that you get a minor amount of background noise. That is something you would want to avoid on a lacquer that will be plated and pressed.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
In the mid 70's, a few Japanese made diamond styli with burnishing facets and heater wires were around.
We used them at RCA, you had to use nearly an amp heater current to get
a quiet cut. They sounded absolutely amazing, but we never got past about
40 hrs. use because the wire would fracture due to excessive heat!
Haven't seen 'em since. Would love to use them again!
We used them at RCA, you had to use nearly an amp heater current to get
a quiet cut. They sounded absolutely amazing, but we never got past about
40 hrs. use because the wire would fracture due to excessive heat!
Haven't seen 'em since. Would love to use them again!
most of that heat would go straight into the cutterhead, because diamond is one of the best heat conductors there is. On the other hand this is also the reason why you can cut so many things with diamond: the heat generated by cutting is very quickly transported away so that your cutting edges do not overheat.
These Jap Diamond stylii also had a contacting wire all the way down to the cutting point or almost, they where earthed so as to get rid of static
A diamond stylus without that has a tendency to get the chip wraped around the stylus or go anywhere else except the suction tube ruining the cut
That is the main reason that diamond was never a big hit in cutting It does generate static charges whereby Saphire as well as Ruby does not
The ones that where available where covered by a patent so there was only a single source for them and quite expensive
It is interesting that there is a person here that has actually used them as I only heard about them from people that only heard about them etc
However the patent applied for is still up on the net which I read through on my attempts to produce cutting stylii from diamond very interesting reading indeed
Cheers
A diamond stylus without that has a tendency to get the chip wraped around the stylus or go anywhere else except the suction tube ruining the cut
That is the main reason that diamond was never a big hit in cutting It does generate static charges whereby Saphire as well as Ruby does not
The ones that where available where covered by a patent so there was only a single source for them and quite expensive
It is interesting that there is a person here that has actually used them as I only heard about them from people that only heard about them etc
However the patent applied for is still up on the net which I read through on my attempts to produce cutting stylii from diamond very interesting reading indeed
Cheers
Chris
Interesting. I know that Souri sells this accessory for his VinylRecorder:
"Ion generator
Highest capacity !
For guaranteed elimination
of any static charge.
No liquid necessary !
No battery !"
I'm guessing this is his way to circumvent the static charge that can build and be distributed to the surface of the recording medium. Souri is very ingenious. I'll give him that!
"Ion generator
Highest capacity !
For guaranteed elimination
of any static charge.
No liquid necessary !
No battery !"
I'm guessing this is his way to circumvent the static charge that can build and be distributed to the surface of the recording medium. Souri is very ingenious. I'll give him that!
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio
I do not give in doubt your knowledge, but I don't agree with what you say.mossboss wrote: A diamond stylus without that has a tendency to get the chip wraped around the stylus or go anywhere else except the suction tube ruining the cut
That is the main reason that diamond was never a big hit in cutting It does generate static charges whereby Saphire as well as Ruby does not
My chips are perfect and go directly in the suction tube...and my cut are pretty nice.Sorry.
cheers
Hey Shank
Here it is mate and it is not the only one either
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4212471.html
"A device for cutting sound grooves in a disc recording medium has a cutting stylus for recording sound by cutting on the disc recording medium. The cutting stylus comprises a cutting stylus structure of diamond having a cutting part for cutting the disc recording medium while producing a cut chip therefrom. A surface of the cutting stylus structure contacts the chip having been rendered electroconductive to a specific depth by an ion-implantation process."
Not doubting you either but as I said never seen one only heard about them so here you go
May be times have changed in the way diamonds are formed however let me say that for many a year diamond for cutting was attempted with no results until such time as some means or method was found so as to dispose of the static charge as the above patent testifies
Cheers
Here it is mate and it is not the only one either
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4212471.html
"A device for cutting sound grooves in a disc recording medium has a cutting stylus for recording sound by cutting on the disc recording medium. The cutting stylus comprises a cutting stylus structure of diamond having a cutting part for cutting the disc recording medium while producing a cut chip therefrom. A surface of the cutting stylus structure contacts the chip having been rendered electroconductive to a specific depth by an ion-implantation process."
Not doubting you either but as I said never seen one only heard about them so here you go
May be times have changed in the way diamonds are formed however let me say that for many a year diamond for cutting was attempted with no results until such time as some means or method was found so as to dispose of the static charge as the above patent testifies
Cheers
Chris
we did some test this summer with the shank using a sx74 vms and sal
we cutted some laquers , very interesting the cut was very clean . we did not have any problem of succion.
but we had problems with hiss and high frequencies.
all above 4000 hz was sounding saturated , even with very low level of recording ,
if somebody can help for this point ...
we also did some tests on PVC disk , the result was very good , deffinitively better than the souri diamonds or others equivalent.
we cutted some laquers , very interesting the cut was very clean . we did not have any problem of succion.
but we had problems with hiss and high frequencies.
all above 4000 hz was sounding saturated , even with very low level of recording ,
if somebody can help for this point ...
we also did some tests on PVC disk , the result was very good , deffinitively better than the souri diamonds or others equivalent.
Hey mossboss,
that is a good patent you found us. However, note that they do mention and show burnishing facets 16. Only, they call them "varnishing surfaces". Diamond polishing (essentially, you cannot grind them) is a slow business, and removing material like you must to get these facets makes for a low throughput = expense.
that is a good patent you found us. However, note that they do mention and show burnishing facets 16. Only, they call them "varnishing surfaces". Diamond polishing (essentially, you cannot grind them) is a slow business, and removing material like you must to get these facets makes for a low throughput = expense.
Hey All
I think in my endeavours to produce a low cost diamond cutting stylus I have read quite a few of them This one is interesting there is another one that I have yet to put my hand on that goes through the particular electrical properties of various jewels such as saphire ruby diamond etc quite scientificaly which was more interesting
OK
Nickou
The reason that diamond will not perform at these frequencys is due to the fact that it has not been cut out of an octahedron One needs to get a complete crystal determined correct via xrays or some other means so as to determine the crystaline structure of the bit he is using and cut a section out of that at a particular angle within that structure so as to finish up with a stylus that would exhibit the qualities required for cutting which would include long life
Not sure what Shank or whoever cuts his stones for him is using but I would place a bet that they are not using any such technique
Thats the summary besides the fact that you are using a conventional mounting position of the stylus where by it is known that a 10-15-20 degree cant is necessary for a diamond to perform as it is intended
Here is the extract of the patent patent by the masters of DMM besides the other related patents that pertain to cutting with diamond that I am sure you can find yourself as well as the Shank
"An arrangement is disclosed for cutting information into a record carrier made of metal, particularly of copper by means of a diamond, with the diamond body being adjusted for cutting under a canting angle and being ground in such a manner that, deviating from the prior art manner, the cutting edge does not coincide with a diamond zone of optimum hardness but deviates from the optimum position by an angle which is preferably equal to the canting angle."
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4748612.html
Let me assure everyone out there that diamond stylli are a whole field of their own
If any one thinks that our predecessors had no idea about diamonds and the benefits that could be had are falling in a big false sense of security
Thinking that they can just get a bit grind it polish it and stick it on a cutter head so as to cut a lacquer or a copper disc with it expecting the same results like saphire or ruby are fooling themselves
It is a whole new ball game there was and still is more people that give up in the end than ones who succeded in getting a result with diamond stylii so as to get an equal or better result than currently used materials that have proven themselves over many years
If one takes into account what it takes to cut a diamond stylus having a complete understanding of the material as well as its strengths and weaknesses than the price is not that high
For a diamond that has been cut out of any blank without due consideration of the materials peculiarities than it is expensive as it will just not preform as well as bite the dust in a cut or two
Enjoy the reading like I have, besides this one, there is another 30 odd on my files
Cheers
I think in my endeavours to produce a low cost diamond cutting stylus I have read quite a few of them This one is interesting there is another one that I have yet to put my hand on that goes through the particular electrical properties of various jewels such as saphire ruby diamond etc quite scientificaly which was more interesting
OK
Nickou
The reason that diamond will not perform at these frequencys is due to the fact that it has not been cut out of an octahedron One needs to get a complete crystal determined correct via xrays or some other means so as to determine the crystaline structure of the bit he is using and cut a section out of that at a particular angle within that structure so as to finish up with a stylus that would exhibit the qualities required for cutting which would include long life
Not sure what Shank or whoever cuts his stones for him is using but I would place a bet that they are not using any such technique
Thats the summary besides the fact that you are using a conventional mounting position of the stylus where by it is known that a 10-15-20 degree cant is necessary for a diamond to perform as it is intended
Here is the extract of the patent patent by the masters of DMM besides the other related patents that pertain to cutting with diamond that I am sure you can find yourself as well as the Shank
"An arrangement is disclosed for cutting information into a record carrier made of metal, particularly of copper by means of a diamond, with the diamond body being adjusted for cutting under a canting angle and being ground in such a manner that, deviating from the prior art manner, the cutting edge does not coincide with a diamond zone of optimum hardness but deviates from the optimum position by an angle which is preferably equal to the canting angle."
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4748612.html
Let me assure everyone out there that diamond stylli are a whole field of their own
If any one thinks that our predecessors had no idea about diamonds and the benefits that could be had are falling in a big false sense of security
Thinking that they can just get a bit grind it polish it and stick it on a cutter head so as to cut a lacquer or a copper disc with it expecting the same results like saphire or ruby are fooling themselves
It is a whole new ball game there was and still is more people that give up in the end than ones who succeded in getting a result with diamond stylii so as to get an equal or better result than currently used materials that have proven themselves over many years
If one takes into account what it takes to cut a diamond stylus having a complete understanding of the material as well as its strengths and weaknesses than the price is not that high
For a diamond that has been cut out of any blank without due consideration of the materials peculiarities than it is expensive as it will just not preform as well as bite the dust in a cut or two
Enjoy the reading like I have, besides this one, there is another 30 odd on my files
Cheers
Chris
You are most welcome Sir
By the way there was a specific holder for theses stylii developed at the time that allowed them after they where mounted so as to do two things
One was take the canting position on a standard head
Two allow them to be resurfaced ground polished while in the holder
This was necessary due to their high cost
(I recall a recent post by Steve Berson here mentioning like $2K for a stylus a few years back while he was at Europadisc Not surprising either)
However the problem with static generated while cutting lacquers was not addressed at the time so it was strictly for DMM
An interesting twist to this was the fact that a process as well as a specific procedure was developed to plate the copper on to the stainless steel backing that delayed the recrystalisation of the copper deposit to allow a decent cut on them
At the early days of DMM copper masters where good for only a short time after they where made something like a few days than they recrystalised making them almost useless to cut or ruining the stylus in the cutting process in no time
Cheers
By the way there was a specific holder for theses stylii developed at the time that allowed them after they where mounted so as to do two things
One was take the canting position on a standard head
Two allow them to be resurfaced ground polished while in the holder
This was necessary due to their high cost
(I recall a recent post by Steve Berson here mentioning like $2K for a stylus a few years back while he was at Europadisc Not surprising either)
However the problem with static generated while cutting lacquers was not addressed at the time so it was strictly for DMM
An interesting twist to this was the fact that a process as well as a specific procedure was developed to plate the copper on to the stainless steel backing that delayed the recrystalisation of the copper deposit to allow a decent cut on them
At the early days of DMM copper masters where good for only a short time after they where made something like a few days than they recrystalised making them almost useless to cut or ruining the stylus in the cutting process in no time
Cheers
Chris
@mossboss: thank you, you are making this develop into a small nugget of knowledge on diamonds. I have a couple of comments:
1) resurfacing while in the holder: the patent I know relates to resurfacing of the reproducing stylus (the "skid") for the videodisc TED Bildplatte. This stylus needed a sharp edge to permit each vertically recorded wobble to jar the stylus assembly to give the output. The sharp edge was obtained by precise alignment according to the crystallographic axes, however still only 25-30 records could be played. So the Teldec team developed a way to polish only the weak orientation (faster working), in between plays, by lifting an inclined rotating polishing disc in the rest position of the pickup arm. It is GB1475148. If you have a reference to resurfacing for "ordinary" DMM [u]cutting[/u] stylii, I would be interested.
2) you had to keep the masters you bought from Teldec in the freezer, but they only guaranteed one year shelf life under that condition. I still have a few from Nottorf with expiry date 1995.
All the best for the new year and remember to change to 2011 in your pantograph scriber for matrix nos. - greybeard
1) resurfacing while in the holder: the patent I know relates to resurfacing of the reproducing stylus (the "skid") for the videodisc TED Bildplatte. This stylus needed a sharp edge to permit each vertically recorded wobble to jar the stylus assembly to give the output. The sharp edge was obtained by precise alignment according to the crystallographic axes, however still only 25-30 records could be played. So the Teldec team developed a way to polish only the weak orientation (faster working), in between plays, by lifting an inclined rotating polishing disc in the rest position of the pickup arm. It is GB1475148. If you have a reference to resurfacing for "ordinary" DMM [u]cutting[/u] stylii, I would be interested.
2) you had to keep the masters you bought from Teldec in the freezer, but they only guaranteed one year shelf life under that condition. I still have a few from Nottorf with expiry date 1995.
All the best for the new year and remember to change to 2011 in your pantograph scriber for matrix nos. - greybeard
Hey Greybeard
Here is a secret for all
My pantograph is a hand held scriber Ha Ha
Ok now about the regrinding I am sure that it was for a raw unmounted sylus that was ground triangular in its body so as to sit on a female holder with a spot ground out for the set screw to sit in so as to hold it in place but all that is going from memory
I have to dig it up and have another read, since I am nowhere near my notes it will be a while
Yes that is correct Teldec copper blanks where only good for a short time
I am surprised that they lasted as long as a year but it makes sense if they where kept in the freezer
Ok here is what happens today
It is interesting that Portal space in the UK made blanks for Abbey Road but since the last or the second last working DMM in the UK has been sold and it is now at Record Industry in Holland I am not sure that they will do it any longer Who knows
They do make the copper blanks there as well at Record Industry in Holland Not sure if the use the levelers and softeners that where used so as to lengthen the shelve life of them
Not sure where GZ gets its blanks from as well as how long they are good for
I am also curious to know if that elderly gentleman in Germany ex Neumann is still around and if he still grinds the stylii for the few remaining DMM's
Any way In my view Diamond for cutting besides copper which it has done for many years now has a lot going for it given that it is done correctly
Cheers
Here is a secret for all
My pantograph is a hand held scriber Ha Ha
Ok now about the regrinding I am sure that it was for a raw unmounted sylus that was ground triangular in its body so as to sit on a female holder with a spot ground out for the set screw to sit in so as to hold it in place but all that is going from memory
I have to dig it up and have another read, since I am nowhere near my notes it will be a while
Yes that is correct Teldec copper blanks where only good for a short time
I am surprised that they lasted as long as a year but it makes sense if they where kept in the freezer
Ok here is what happens today
It is interesting that Portal space in the UK made blanks for Abbey Road but since the last or the second last working DMM in the UK has been sold and it is now at Record Industry in Holland I am not sure that they will do it any longer Who knows
They do make the copper blanks there as well at Record Industry in Holland Not sure if the use the levelers and softeners that where used so as to lengthen the shelve life of them
Not sure where GZ gets its blanks from as well as how long they are good for
I am also curious to know if that elderly gentleman in Germany ex Neumann is still around and if he still grinds the stylii for the few remaining DMM's
Any way In my view Diamond for cutting besides copper which it has done for many years now has a lot going for it given that it is done correctly
Cheers
Chris