VMS Locked Groove Automation Box

[opcode66]

Hello Trolls. I am going to crank out another of my automation boxes for the VMS systems. There is a button on the lathe that can be used to do the automatic head drop. This button controls the voltage going to the servo motor in the suspension box. I'm going to make something that can integrate into the lathe and control the head independent of the onboard system.

When you press a button on the box it will drop the head and after a user selectable delay time the box will send out a Midi Machine Command message to start playback to Start playback of a DAW. Then after a predetermined delay time dependent on platter rotation speed the box will automatically pop the head up and send a MMC Stop command to your DAW.

The net effect is effortless locked grooves that come out perfect every time.

Anyone interested?

This is a second automation box. My other allows control of Fast, Time and Echo from your DAW via MIDI messages. And it also take the Tape Remote Start impulse and converts it to MMC Start message to start a DAW playing after the lead in groove is cut.

[jjgolden]

Hi Todd,

Sounds interesting, cool Ideas.
Why not integrate this feature into your other box?
It's like releasing an iPad 1 without the camera y'know?

As a side note:
I've always felt more comfortable dropping the head manually so I can lift it immediately and save the side if the chip doesn't pickup.

JJG

[opcode66]

I've never had an issue with dropped chip when using the automatic head drop. Also, it makes sure the lead groove starts at the exact correct place. Too early can mess with the stamper plate cause the groove would be on the edge of the plate.

I am developing each piece of functionality. Right now, it makes sense to develop them independently. Of course I can make one uber-box. But, not everyone wants all these features. Thus, I am making them piecemeal. But, yes, I can in fact put them all into one box. It would be a more expensive unit however. So, I like the idea of making them separate at first.

I suppose I should take it as a compliment that you would compare my development work to that of a worldwide tech corporation.

[jjgolden]

I've never had an issue with dropped chip when using the automatic head drop.

Knock on wood!

Also, it makes sure the lead groove starts at the exact correct place.

Unless you're diameter micro-switches are not set correctly, how could the head drop/lead-in not start at the correct place?
Exactly the right place is where I manually drop the head.
What diameter I start the music varies as I may want to get quiet music away from the outside of the disc.

I suppose I should take it as a compliment that you would compare my development work to that of a worldwide tech corporation.

Well, it wasn't a compliment, I was giving you constructive criticism as a potential customer.
For me personally,the auto head drop/lift would not be that useful/valuable by itself. It is however a cool thing to have integrated with the other options to complete the "midi control cutting package".

With only respect, nothing I say here should be taken personally.
You are doing good things in the name of record cutting progress.
Keep up the awesome work!
Sincerely,
JJG

[opcode66]

With manual head drop your timing might be off. In your case, if you are using the Time button illumination/fast motor kicking in as your cue then you are fine...

I know what you were saying... I was taking your dig and turning it around on its heals... I no longer let anything said on the trolls get me worked up. And generally you can always find a positive. Even in a negative.

Why do you want quiet music away from the outside of the disc? Never read anything about that.

Finally, my lathe control box could be used on a variety of lathes to automate button pushes. The auto head drop functionality would have no purpose on 99% of other lathes than a vms system. So, again, I think it is best to split out functionality, as well as have one all-in-one box.

[jjgolden]

With manual head drop your timing might be off. In your case, if you are using the Time button illumination/fast motor kicking in as your cue then you are fine...

Yes, and watching the time light go out and what diameter radius I'm at.

Why do you want quiet music away from the outside of the disc? Never read anything about that.

In my experience, that area of a pressing has seen the most issues with swishing noises and non-fill. If I've got a song with a long quiet fade in for example, (and I can afford the space) I'll do a normal lead in, then hit "time" to get inside maybe another quick 1/8th inch in before I hit play.
(I'm sure mossy or other pressing people could elaborate on this.) Also keeping it away from the groove gaurd. I've had to recut stuff because the clients automatic turntable would drop in and bounce off the side of the groove guard and into the already playing music. Not really my problem I know, but if I can afford head off those anomalies I will.

Finally, my lathe control box could be used on a variety of lathes to automate button pushes. The auto head drop functionality would have no purpose on 99% of other lathes than a vms system.

Yes, totally makes sense if this is able to be used on home cutters and other lathes.

JJG

[Nickou]

I have this function on my lathe since more than 10 years



Jvo studer / vinylium did a little scirpt on the sotware of the ultrapitch to make automated loops

it is easy to use and all the loops are perfect .. possibility to cut around 200 loops per side

[Nickou]

I have this function on my lathe since more than 10 years
Jvo studer / vinylium did a little scirpt on the sotware of the ultrapitch 98to make automated loops
it is easy to use and all the loops are perfect .. possibility to cut around 200 loops per side

good idea to build a box for vms66/70 user ... it will be very usefull when you have to cut a big amount of loops

[Nickou]

double post !!!

[dietrich10]

I agree ONE box for all for the end result is best.

If Opcode will be making an improved pitch box would be best to have everything incorporated one place

[concretecowboy71]

@ JJ Golden:

You mentioned swishing on the outer diameter of the record. Can you speak more about this (start another thread maybe?) We get that happening from time to time and one theory that has been given to us is that it is caused by a piece of chip stuck to the stylus.

Any theories on your end?

Back on thread...is there a big market for loops? I have been asked twice since I started for loops and usually just pass on them because given the time it would seem to take it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[jjgolden]

Hi Clint,

Yes.
There's a number of things that could influence that sound.

As it pertains to the lacquer cut it could be:

1. Lacquer disc isn't flat or has an outer ripple that extends into the 12" cutting area causing a once around swish noise. If you have an overhead light above the turntable, use it's reflection in the lacquer to look within the cutting area for a ripple and overall flatness before cutting. Be sure suction is ON while doing this.
2. Disc isn't flat and or a piece of hair is under the disc preventing the disc from laying perfectly flat and causing an air cavity under the disc by which the vacuum suction can be heard.
3. As you mentioned, an issue with the chip getting hung up or wrapped around the stylus for a second could cause a noise as well. I would think this could be visible during a non modulated area.

As it pertains to the pressing:
1. The vinyl biscuit is squeezed from the center out and it is at this outer area that the shape of the vinyl grooves etc. will not always fill in correctly and/or is more susceptible to deformities. I'm sure some of this has to do with the heating/cooling cycle as well as the pressing time.
**I was hoping that Mossy or other pressing folks could chime in here to add their experience on this.**

Ok that's my 2 cents there.
JJG

[opcode66]

I've been asked a few times and also passed. That bugs me. Thought about it. Looked at the schematics and decided ot would be fairly easy to make this work. Posted hear to see if there is interest. Im going to crank this out. And, yes I'll offer all mods individually and as well as all in one.

I know I'm not the first to consider this. JVO and Flo are two of my biggest inspirations with respect to device fabrication for cutting! Neat that it is a part of their system.

Nickou, just curious, does it send a digital start message (midi start or mmc start) or does it flip a relay for signaling start to a tape deck?

[markrob]

Hi,

Seems like a great idea for a project.

Do you really need to send MMC or other trigger to an external device to start playback? If you have the loop playing at the time the drop happens, you'll always get one complete loop cut if its timed correctly (1.8 secs for 33.333 RPM). Where you are in the loop at the time of head drop should not matter. You need to time the head lift to be just a bit longer than one revolution to be sure you have a locked groove. The overlap should be seamless.

Mark

[opcode66]

I was figuring that there would always be a bit of a clip at the point of overlap. If the audio started and stopped at the exact point of drop/pop then that would minimize the possibility of the audio sounding funny at that point in the locked groove. Since I've never tired this I don't know. I was just thinking about what features I would want. Certainly, you could ignore the Start/Stop messages that emanate from my box.

[dietrich10]

I think with the loop cutting feature stopping the audio not needed.

often you need to drop the head on a part of the loop that will not yield nasty noise with double kick drums etc.
the most important need is for the head to pop up exactly at the end

[dubcutter89]

I can confirm what mark is saying - the loop should run before and afterwards - simple endless loop...
GUess it what be nearly impossible to start the loop exactly when the stylus digs into the plate

[opcode66]

Would it? The head takes about the same amount of time to drop every time. This is an empirical observation at this point. But, assuming it took the same amount of time for the head to drop then you can add a compensating delay. The idea is to make the delay user selectable. So, you can compensate for your particular delay time vs. what I would need for my head drop. That way, the start would in fact be lined up with the first touch of sapphire to disc.

The net result would be a better sounding loop than what you guys have been doing manually at the point where the locked groove meats itself.

[dietrich10]

Opcode its still about dropping the head at the 'best' part of the loop
that is easier than re-editing every loop on a record to start at that point etc

[opcode66]

I'm going to try both ways and see what the results are.