Can anyone here cut 4-minute cylinders?

[Curley-Ann]

I guess I should have made mention of the fact that I'm also looking for someone here in the states that can cut 4-minute cylinders from CD source.
--Curley-Ann Temple

[andybee]

try to contact flo on floka.com, I think, he can do it.
I don´t know other poeple, but I have seen a video from
somebody else, a while ago...
good luck!

[Curley-Ann]

Sweet--
Thanks!

[piaptk]

Also try Len at History of Recorded Sound in LA.

http://www.hrsrecords.com/

[ArchaicRecords]

Peter Dilg is well-known for cutting 2-minute cylinders.
Everyone I've asked say there doesn't exist a 4-minute cutting stylus.
It seems to me that a jewel cutter could just make one. Right?

[piaptk]

Peter Dilg is well-known for cutting 2-minute cylinders.
Everyone I've asked say there doesn't exist a 4-minute cutting stylus.
It seems to me that a jewel cutter could just make one. Right?

I don't know anything about cylinders, but I'm guessing that all playback styli for cylinders are setup to play back grooves cut by the standard cylinderscutting stylus. Therefore, if you cut grooves with a finer (micro) stylus, the playback needle won't be able to track, because it's too big.

[ArchaicRecords]

Peter Dilg is well-known for cutting 2-minute cylinders.
Everyone I've asked say there doesn't exist a 4-minute cutting stylus.
It seems to me that a jewel cutter could just make one. Right?

I don't know anything about cylinders, but I'm guessing that all playback styli for cylinders are setup to play back grooves cut by the standard cylinderscutting stylus. Therefore, if you cut grooves with a finer (micro) stylus, the playback needle won't be able to track, because it's too big.

In cylinders (speaking of the standard Edison and Columbia variety, excluding the larger Opera ones and other non-standard sizes), there are two kinds: 2-minute and 4-minute. The 2-minute ones were built and marketed first. The first releases were on wax for a few years, but when they figured out how to mold copies by extracting copies from the molds by varying the temperature, they switched to celluloid plastic (first black, then blue). Then, Edison came up with the longer-playing-time of 4-minutes. To achieve that, the lathe screw is set to move the stylus across at half the rate, while the cylinder revolves at the exact same speed (which I think is 160 RPM). ALSO, the groove width was cut in half as well, requiring that the recording stylus and the playback stylus be half the width of the 2-minute stylii. The system uses diamond stylii for both cutting and playback. For cutting/recording records, blank wax cylinders were released to the public. Any regular cylinder machine can also be used as a recorder, since all cylinder machines operate by using a lathe screw. The only problem is, they only sold 2-minute recording stylii to the public.
There is a company today that manufactures blank wax cylinders (Wizard Records) at about $15 each. There are probably also manufacturers of the cutting stylii. The only problem is they still only sell the 2-minute variety.
Which brings me back to my original question: Then, why can't we find a jewel maker who can fashion a 4-minute diamond cutting stylus? Shouldn't be that difficult for those in that business.

[ArchaicRecords]

Another way to solve the 4-minute issue is to take a cutting head (normally used for discs) and fit it into a cylinder machine for cutting cylinders. *Then* you could vary the depth of the groove to cut any size groove and should be able to create a "4-minute" cylinder groove that way. I am not sure about the physics of the cylinder groove and how the playback stylus tracks it, so, some further research is warranted (I could ask around and probably get an answer fairly quickly). Also, keep in mind that cylinders are mono vertical cut (the analog audio vibrates vertically, "hill-and-dale" instead of horizontally like modern records). It might also be a more square-ish groove, with the bottom of the groove being flat (and thin), rather than the V-shaped or elliptical-shaped grooves we are used to today.
By the way, I am a member of both ARSC and MAPS - Association of Recorded Sound Collections and the Michigan Antique Phonograph Society, which is the name of the national phonograph society group. Most hobbyists of antique phonograph equipment are members of either or both societies.

[opcode66]

Another way to solve the 4-minute issue is to take a cutting head (normally used for discs) and fit it into a cylinder machine for cutting cylinders. *Then* you could vary the depth of the groove to cut any size groove and should be able to create a "4-minute" cylinder groove that way.

A cutterhead itself generally does not have a way to adjust depth of cut. Generally the suspension that you mount the cutterhead to has depth control. You would need more than the cutterhead.

Also, keep in mind that cylinders are mono vertical cut (the analog audio vibrates vertically, "hill-and-dale" instead of horizontally like modern records).

By modern I take it you mean stereo. Stereo grooves have both horizontal and vertical movement due to the fact that the left and right channels are set at a 45 Degree angle. So, when they move, they move on an angle and thus move in both the hoizontal and the vertical.

Please have a look at this page. It explains everything very nicely.

http://www.vinylrecorder.com/stereo.html

[emorritt]

There were four minute home recorders and blanks sold by Edison but they aren't common to find because they didn't work as well for consumers as the 2 minute recorders. The difference between the two formats is the groove size and the position, size and shape of the reproducing stylus. Two minute recordings can be played with a 'doorknob' (Edison) type stylus or a spherical (early Columbia) type stylus. Both track the groove in a perpendicular orientation to the grooved surface. Four minute records are tracked with a smaller but 'squashed' doorknob (thinner) stylus that is held parallel to the groove.

You probably wouldn't get something that would work by trying to use a disc cutting jewel to cut a cylinder groove, since the groove geometry the reproducing stylus is looking for is cup (U) shaped and not V shaped as a standard disc record groove. It might track but I've never tried it. With a V shaped groove, it would be difficult to get a 4 minute stylus to track, since the reproducing stylus is looking for a U shape to ride in. You'd have to cut a fairly deep V groove to give the reproducing stylus enough space to stay in place. The varying depth of Edison's U-shape cylinder groove design would allow a 2 or 4 minute stylus the leeway to track as the groove is modulated up and down and would hold the stylus in place in shallower sections, while as a V groove varied in depth, the reproducing stylus would more than likely slip out of a shallower section of the groove.

[Angus McCarthy]

Also, keep in mind that cylinders are mono vertical cut (the analog audio vibrates vertically, "hill-and-dale" instead of horizontally like modern records).

By modern I take it you mean stereo. Stereo grooves have both horizontal and vertical movement due to the fact that the left and right channels are set at a 45 Degree angle. So, when they move, they move on an angle and thus move in both the hoizontal and the vertical.

You could quite easily adapt a 45/45 head to cut cylinders - simply hook up the channels out of phase.

[opcode66]

Also, keep in mind that cylinders are mono vertical cut (the analog audio vibrates vertically, "hill-and-dale" instead of horizontally like modern records).

By modern I take it you mean stereo. Stereo grooves have both horizontal and vertical movement due to the fact that the left and right channels are set at a 45 Degree angle. So, when they move, they move on an angle and thus move in both the hoizontal and the vertical.

You could quite easily adapt a 45/45 head to cut cylinders - simply hook up the channels out of phase.

My point was that "Modern" records have both horizontal and vertical movement. The part where is says ""hill-and-dale" instead of horizontally like modern records" is not quite right. Yes, I understand there were two mono standards. Edison's and the rest of the world. And, I understand how to make a stereo head cut mono.

[Angus McCarthy]

Ah, yes. Never mind me. I swear some days my reading comprehension dips below Kindergarten level.

[Steve E.]

You should contact Peter Dilg on Long Island, NY! He specializes in acoustic cylinder cutting but perhaps he can help. his contact info is in "services" under "links."