Hi Thomas,
Welcome and happy new year! I have yet to contribute to this topic so how did you know I was here??? (But then again, where else would I be?).
I would like ot see a friendly exchange between Nottingham and Thomas on the pros and cons of Alpha Toolex and SMT presses. Nottingham claims Alpha Toolex presses are superior while Thomas (an owner of SMT presses and a great guy to boot!) says SMT presses are better.
So gentlemen... please state your case. We would love to hear why.
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Aussie0zborn
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
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Why Toolex Alpha's are better - Part one....
As mine was pretty much the machine I'd used for a while before owning it , I suppose you get used to their...hmm....Tempremental-ness..like a woman ( and please - no offence to any ladies in the Industry!) - my wife say's it is the other woman in my life - as it infuriates me as much as her...! They can be wonderfully complient though, if you treat them nice - and incredibly reliable - once you get te temp right -leave them be, and 10,000 pieces of pure vinyl perfection will come out the other end...and the label arm dosen't drop off....! ( I've only heard of this once on An SMT, althoug it was proberbly abused..!)- my only word of advice to anyone tinking of buying a Toolex - make sure get the "Forming " perfect - otherwise...it will spit them out, and chew up all the vinyl...!
So - over to you, Thomas....
CC.
As mine was pretty much the machine I'd used for a while before owning it , I suppose you get used to their...hmm....Tempremental-ness..like a woman ( and please - no offence to any ladies in the Industry!) - my wife say's it is the other woman in my life - as it infuriates me as much as her...! They can be wonderfully complient though, if you treat them nice - and incredibly reliable - once you get te temp right -leave them be, and 10,000 pieces of pure vinyl perfection will come out the other end...and the label arm dosen't drop off....! ( I've only heard of this once on An SMT, althoug it was proberbly abused..!)- my only word of advice to anyone tinking of buying a Toolex - make sure get the "Forming " perfect - otherwise...it will spit them out, and chew up all the vinyl...!
So - over to you, Thomas....
CC.
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
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Aussie0zborn
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While we wait for Thomas to get back to us on this, can I chime in?
I owned seven Alpha Toolex presses and only three SMT presses (which we never installed).
One thing I didn't like about American presses was that the manufacturer simply made the press and integrated eveything else with parts from other manufacturers, eg: hydraulics, extruders, etc.
What I came to realise with SMT was that you could go down to the local distributor of let's say "XYZ" hydraulic pumps and buy parts for that hydralic pump off the shelf. No need to order from the local Toolex agent who would place an order with Sweden and then make you wait weeks for parts. This was part of the design philosophy of the EMI "1400" automatic press. With plants all over the world, each EMI plant could just go down to the local engineering shop and buy standard parts off the shelf - big advantage. SMT has that advantage too.
Toolex Alpha made almost everything and so most parts are unique and only available from Toolex. Now that Toolex no longer exists, that could be a problem. Last time I spoke with an engineer visiting from Toolex when they were still in business, he said they simply supplied what spare parts they had and only made moulds for the vinyl industry, as their sole focus was CD and later DVD.
Alpha Toolex 'Alpha Deltas' certainly look pretty and make American presses such as SMT look like beasts and they are capable of a faster cycle time. There is a lot to be said for a three-column press versus a four column press but I digress. At the end of the day, what really counts is the cycle time and the yield.
What sort of cycle time and yield are you getting from the Alpha Toolex? What do you do for spare parts? Same questions go to Thomas.
Also, good luck to you. Buying a press and going into the pressing business is not for the squeamish. I see Malcolm has five Alpha Deltas for sale. Did these come out of the plant you worked at previously?
I owned seven Alpha Toolex presses and only three SMT presses (which we never installed).
One thing I didn't like about American presses was that the manufacturer simply made the press and integrated eveything else with parts from other manufacturers, eg: hydraulics, extruders, etc.
What I came to realise with SMT was that you could go down to the local distributor of let's say "XYZ" hydraulic pumps and buy parts for that hydralic pump off the shelf. No need to order from the local Toolex agent who would place an order with Sweden and then make you wait weeks for parts. This was part of the design philosophy of the EMI "1400" automatic press. With plants all over the world, each EMI plant could just go down to the local engineering shop and buy standard parts off the shelf - big advantage. SMT has that advantage too.
Toolex Alpha made almost everything and so most parts are unique and only available from Toolex. Now that Toolex no longer exists, that could be a problem. Last time I spoke with an engineer visiting from Toolex when they were still in business, he said they simply supplied what spare parts they had and only made moulds for the vinyl industry, as their sole focus was CD and later DVD.
Alpha Toolex 'Alpha Deltas' certainly look pretty and make American presses such as SMT look like beasts and they are capable of a faster cycle time. There is a lot to be said for a three-column press versus a four column press but I digress. At the end of the day, what really counts is the cycle time and the yield.
What sort of cycle time and yield are you getting from the Alpha Toolex? What do you do for spare parts? Same questions go to Thomas.
Also, good luck to you. Buying a press and going into the pressing business is not for the squeamish. I see Malcolm has five Alpha Deltas for sale. Did these come out of the plant you worked at previously?
Hello all!
I am tickled by the company, there are almost enough people to start an association.
Why SMT is superior, simple they are grey and orange. Therefore, grease on the posts is slightly less unsightly and that makes them more pleasant to be around.
Sometimes I wonder what the ideal machine would be. Hamilton/TTT, Toolex, Lened, EMI, SMT. I have always admired the 1400's for their engineering. They seem to have each different press's best attributes. I would love to get my hands on a few W&P extruders and s.dies.
The Hamilton/TTT, EMI and Toolex were designed specifically to be record presses, I don't know enough about the Lened to comment. That they all still exist is a testament to their innate ability. SMT was originally bolt on automation for manual presses, hybrids. The bolt on design was eventually offered complete with press and hydraulics, known as true SMT's. The SMT can keep going indefinitely, you can run the thing hard continuously. Swapping outdated parts with modern versions is a breeze, we do it when it becomes cost effective. Besides consumables, just a small handful of parts ever need to be machined.
I started with 2 rotten presses and no wife. There was nothing on the machine that did not need to be fixed or replaced. As soon as something was fixed a catastrophe. Big jump here, when we grew enough to finally justify purchasing more equipment I couldn't find any reasonable ones for a long time. Always, 1 to 2 extra zeros on the price. Almost converted to Toolex then Lened.
Wife, daughter, just 3 presses up, 30 second and 5% average reject, mostly paper or burnisher.
CC- may I visit you some time?
CD4- thank you.
Mikey- My best
What the difference between a record press and a giraffe?
I am tickled by the company, there are almost enough people to start an association.
Why SMT is superior, simple they are grey and orange. Therefore, grease on the posts is slightly less unsightly and that makes them more pleasant to be around.
Sometimes I wonder what the ideal machine would be. Hamilton/TTT, Toolex, Lened, EMI, SMT. I have always admired the 1400's for their engineering. They seem to have each different press's best attributes. I would love to get my hands on a few W&P extruders and s.dies.
The Hamilton/TTT, EMI and Toolex were designed specifically to be record presses, I don't know enough about the Lened to comment. That they all still exist is a testament to their innate ability. SMT was originally bolt on automation for manual presses, hybrids. The bolt on design was eventually offered complete with press and hydraulics, known as true SMT's. The SMT can keep going indefinitely, you can run the thing hard continuously. Swapping outdated parts with modern versions is a breeze, we do it when it becomes cost effective. Besides consumables, just a small handful of parts ever need to be machined.
I started with 2 rotten presses and no wife. There was nothing on the machine that did not need to be fixed or replaced. As soon as something was fixed a catastrophe. Big jump here, when we grew enough to finally justify purchasing more equipment I couldn't find any reasonable ones for a long time. Always, 1 to 2 extra zeros on the price. Almost converted to Toolex then Lened.
Wife, daughter, just 3 presses up, 30 second and 5% average reject, mostly paper or burnisher.
CC- may I visit you some time?
CD4- thank you.
Mikey- My best
What the difference between a record press and a giraffe?
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Aussie0zborn
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
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- Location: Nottingham,England.
Why Toolex Alpha's are better - Part 2.....
As with all " Delicate " Machinary - and I use the word delicate on purpose, is that with " Big Bet " you have have to coax the best out of her - Long-running hours have been the Norm recently,
and she has been as tough as a diamond !
-And I'm lucky really, as I have an Old Time-served Precision Toolmaker friend, who is without doubt - a Genius - when it comes to fabricating new parts, or restoring/re-moulding, I always turn to him for advice and help - - if, say - I'm planning a long run, I'll ask how she looks from the last " Service " we did, and whether we need to replace/mend anything before we run - you can at least TRY and anticipate what she's going to do...a little like buying a woman flowers, in anticipation of a valentines weekend......And you are always rewarded...!
A Rejection rate of somewhere between 8-10% - usually on paper - but we do have the odd little "Hiccup " with re-grind (- I always get someone else to do the re-grind because a - I don't have a granulator and B - Jeez, it does make a racket! )
As Cycle times go - as I/we have such a small production rate, I vary it between 45- 90 seconds depanding on the quality/ weight - do you find that 200gm moulds like a longer cycle rate? Mine does - and then the're perfect, never a problem !
- As I charge per item, I have to relay solely on quality of product/reputation to deliver as the means to get repeat business, and I strive to get the best finish as I pack them, and ship them ALL myself - and at the moment, it's going well....
Whenever I come into work, I'm always amazed at how old the old girl is, and how she keeps going - a testament like you say thomas to how they were made in the days of Longevity - not disposability...
- I recently had a day out with my wife - a rare treat - and she took me to an old Industrial museam over here In Nottingham, at a place called Wollaton Park, an old Stately home -
-And here they had a lot of the Old Lace-making machinary that Nottingham is Famous for throughout the World - and I was astonished to see just how well made they were - they very rarely broke-down !
As I look at my old Alpha - cooling down, after a what was a tough 14-hour day - I like to think - as all machines have a soul and Personality - (Just Ask Jeremy Clarkson!) - that she enjoyed it , ....
-just as much as I did.....
Thomas - Why IS the Difference between a record making machine and a Giraffe...?
Best wishes to all maikng vinyl...
CC.
and she has been as tough as a diamond !
-And I'm lucky really, as I have an Old Time-served Precision Toolmaker friend, who is without doubt - a Genius - when it comes to fabricating new parts, or restoring/re-moulding, I always turn to him for advice and help - - if, say - I'm planning a long run, I'll ask how she looks from the last " Service " we did, and whether we need to replace/mend anything before we run - you can at least TRY and anticipate what she's going to do...a little like buying a woman flowers, in anticipation of a valentines weekend......And you are always rewarded...!
A Rejection rate of somewhere between 8-10% - usually on paper - but we do have the odd little "Hiccup " with re-grind (- I always get someone else to do the re-grind because a - I don't have a granulator and B - Jeez, it does make a racket! )
As Cycle times go - as I/we have such a small production rate, I vary it between 45- 90 seconds depanding on the quality/ weight - do you find that 200gm moulds like a longer cycle rate? Mine does - and then the're perfect, never a problem !
- As I charge per item, I have to relay solely on quality of product/reputation to deliver as the means to get repeat business, and I strive to get the best finish as I pack them, and ship them ALL myself - and at the moment, it's going well....
Whenever I come into work, I'm always amazed at how old the old girl is, and how she keeps going - a testament like you say thomas to how they were made in the days of Longevity - not disposability...
- I recently had a day out with my wife - a rare treat - and she took me to an old Industrial museam over here In Nottingham, at a place called Wollaton Park, an old Stately home -
-And here they had a lot of the Old Lace-making machinary that Nottingham is Famous for throughout the World - and I was astonished to see just how well made they were - they very rarely broke-down !
As I look at my old Alpha - cooling down, after a what was a tough 14-hour day - I like to think - as all machines have a soul and Personality - (Just Ask Jeremy Clarkson!) - that she enjoyed it , ....
-just as much as I did.....
Thomas - Why IS the Difference between a record making machine and a Giraffe...?
Best wishes to all maikng vinyl...
CC.
Last edited by NottinghamToolexAlpha on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
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- Location: Nottingham,England.
Sorry Oz - I've just noticed your question - I dont think Malcolm's came out of the Old Place - we had Guards on ALL the machines, due to a slight mis-hap with someone getting there thumb stuck...Ouch! ( ...It wasn't mine, by the way...!) - Health and safety people wanting to stick their noses in more like, as it was just a Bane to producton.....
Not sure where his all came from, but if they come down in price ( ..Think he had one on UK ebay starting at £5,000...) I might be interested in another - I bought mine in pieces, after it had been dis-mantled ....with none of the moving parts being Greased or put into oil...! A " Little " bit difficult to put back together...!
One day, I really would like to get hold of a 7" machine - but they seem to be as rare as a smiling rock star...!
CC.
Not sure where his all came from, but if they come down in price ( ..Think he had one on UK ebay starting at £5,000...) I might be interested in another - I bought mine in pieces, after it had been dis-mantled ....with none of the moving parts being Greased or put into oil...! A " Little " bit difficult to put back together...!
One day, I really would like to get hold of a 7" machine - but they seem to be as rare as a smiling rock star...!
CC.
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
Hello,
Have been under the rock, sorry about the lag.
Mikey, we are about to die cut our third round of labels, joy! Not using the one you gave me, it needs to be machined to fit in press, hesitant to do that.
CC, yes, for us the weight effects time on a curve. The heavier, the higher up the curve and much much longer to press. Lets talk granulators and regrind, please email me at your leisure. Independent in Nottingham?
This is George's- A record press has hydraulics and a giraffe has high bollocks.
I mentioned you to him earlier this week, do you know each other?
My best-
Have been under the rock, sorry about the lag.
Mikey, we are about to die cut our third round of labels, joy! Not using the one you gave me, it needs to be machined to fit in press, hesitant to do that.
CC, yes, for us the weight effects time on a curve. The heavier, the higher up the curve and much much longer to press. Lets talk granulators and regrind, please email me at your leisure. Independent in Nottingham?
This is George's- A record press has hydraulics and a giraffe has high bollocks.
I mentioned you to him earlier this week, do you know each other?
My best-
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Aussie0zborn
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Not bad Thomas, it only took you a year and a two thirds to start die-cutting your own labels and my die-cutting knofe doesn't fit? Oh boy... I do hope it gave you the impetus to get it going, but then you have a lot on your plate!
We drilled the labels, placed them on spindle, placed a template on top, located the knife around the template and then gave the whole thing a stroke in an old Alpha press (without the dies, ofcourse) and voila... die-cut labels without having to mount the knife in the press permanently. The knife wouldn't last too long when you dropped it. It was always fun getting it re-sharpened and not being able to resist feeling that sharp edge when you picked it up. The knife-sharpeneing place had band-aids on the counter for such foolhardy people.
Nottingham... a fourteen hour shift?? Wives of record pressers (and AV guys) are a rare breed. They deserve their own section on the lathe trolls forum and I for one will be petitioning Steve for such a fitting tribute!!
Back to presses... the YouTube video shot in Hub Servall's now defunct plant shows some pretty amazing machinery. I believe they are Hamilton presses. How familiar are you with Hamiltons, Thomas? WHat's the lowdown??
We drilled the labels, placed them on spindle, placed a template on top, located the knife around the template and then gave the whole thing a stroke in an old Alpha press (without the dies, ofcourse) and voila... die-cut labels without having to mount the knife in the press permanently. The knife wouldn't last too long when you dropped it. It was always fun getting it re-sharpened and not being able to resist feeling that sharp edge when you picked it up. The knife-sharpeneing place had band-aids on the counter for such foolhardy people.
Nottingham... a fourteen hour shift?? Wives of record pressers (and AV guys) are a rare breed. They deserve their own section on the lathe trolls forum and I for one will be petitioning Steve for such a fitting tribute!!
Back to presses... the YouTube video shot in Hub Servall's now defunct plant shows some pretty amazing machinery. I believe they are Hamilton presses. How familiar are you with Hamiltons, Thomas? WHat's the lowdown??
Hello,
Mikey yes, having the knife definitely spurred me, thank you. It was an important project, that kept getting sidetracked, alas money. To make a mini press from scratch with a power unit was a bit pricey. Not so much the press, as the power unit. Also, I got the feeling, the machinists did not want to make anything so small. Right now they are working on a 200 ton press. Fern, followed through with a colleague and bought a system. Resealed, modified and picked up small hole drill.
CC, you alright? Ode to a difficult business.
Yes, they are Hamiltons, circa 1972. Dennis and Dave took very good care of them, they are the Hamilton experts. The Hub plant was productive and consistent. Dave was somehow involved with six of those presses being set up in Montreal Canada. I think they are starting out with a good foundation. I am around Hamiltons enough to appreciate the sequence of automation. The specific tooling seems to be the caste aluminum transport and trim station frame. But, I am unfamiliar with the controls. I also have no experience with the standard Hamilton extruder. Dave would say Hamilton is better than SMT. Of course thats wrong thought, because Hamiltons are blue.
Mikey yes, having the knife definitely spurred me, thank you. It was an important project, that kept getting sidetracked, alas money. To make a mini press from scratch with a power unit was a bit pricey. Not so much the press, as the power unit. Also, I got the feeling, the machinists did not want to make anything so small. Right now they are working on a 200 ton press. Fern, followed through with a colleague and bought a system. Resealed, modified and picked up small hole drill.
CC, you alright? Ode to a difficult business.
Yes, they are Hamiltons, circa 1972. Dennis and Dave took very good care of them, they are the Hamilton experts. The Hub plant was productive and consistent. Dave was somehow involved with six of those presses being set up in Montreal Canada. I think they are starting out with a good foundation. I am around Hamiltons enough to appreciate the sequence of automation. The specific tooling seems to be the caste aluminum transport and trim station frame. But, I am unfamiliar with the controls. I also have no experience with the standard Hamilton extruder. Dave would say Hamilton is better than SMT. Of course thats wrong thought, because Hamiltons are blue.
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
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- Location: Nottingham,England.
Toolex Vs SMT ...
Hi All, Had some unfortunate news this past month , as my engineer, mentor, and friend who has guided me through this whole process of setting up on my own, is no longer with us...
Without his wisdom, advice, and sheer genius in fabriacating - I am completely at a loss....
Will be shutting down for a few weeks to find my bearings, and get my head around all this, as I've fulfilled all my orders for the forseeable future...
My small but enthusiastic customer base have been informed, and have been incredbly sweet and loyal and I shall no doubt be back - but out of respect for the wizened old bogger, I will be taking a short break to figure things out, such as where to go for spares, repairs, re-profiling and god-knows what else - all help will be characteristicly welcomed with the goodness and warmth I have shown to all in this little cottage industry we like to indulge in...
All my best wishes to all who are doing well...
Peace..CC.
RIP Alan the Engineer.
Without his wisdom, advice, and sheer genius in fabriacating - I am completely at a loss....
Will be shutting down for a few weeks to find my bearings, and get my head around all this, as I've fulfilled all my orders for the forseeable future...
My small but enthusiastic customer base have been informed, and have been incredbly sweet and loyal and I shall no doubt be back - but out of respect for the wizened old bogger, I will be taking a short break to figure things out, such as where to go for spares, repairs, re-profiling and god-knows what else - all help will be characteristicly welcomed with the goodness and warmth I have shown to all in this little cottage industry we like to indulge in...
All my best wishes to all who are doing well...
Peace..CC.
RIP Alan the Engineer.
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
Nottingham
I am curious as to what has tranpsired as well, he has been absent for a while now Would be glad to see a post from him
Cheers
Cheers
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Aussie0zborn
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