LS-76

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boogievan
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LS-76

Post: # 58915Unread post boogievan
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:03 am


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trendkiller
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58918Unread post trendkiller
Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:29 pm

Where is this at?

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boogievan
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58929Unread post boogievan
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:03 pm

Cincinnati, Ohio, USA.

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58931Unread post Dub Bull
Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:51 am

...has become ebay-style auction at posted link (above)... Ends on 21/7/21.

- Father José

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trendkiller
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58933Unread post trendkiller
Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:43 pm

Thank you.

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58946Unread post Dub Bull
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:43 pm

No bids, yet, but Major price-increase to minimum bid, just invoked, ebay-permissibly...
(Too bad etec are closed (?).)

- Father José †

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leemichael
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58964Unread post leemichael
Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:56 am

Just curious, has this now doubled in price?

Or was the original price just a starting bid? Even though there was no mention of an auction at that time.

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58971Unread post Dub Bull
Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:02 am

A couple of kind trolls (from this forum - danke and merci, Guys!) have, each, just mentioned via e-mail to Discolathe that etec, the survivor of Fonofilm Industri, who have been providing continued factory-service for the Ortofon gear bundled with #660, are no longer responsive to inquiries. We had good support in recent years, but hadn't communicated with the proprietor since late 2018. So, we tried reaching out, but have gotten no response for many days while the sale was already underway. This is problematic because, although the drive package used by #660 is presently in top-notch condition, if the DSS821 cutting head ever needs service, or if a component in the GO741 amps ever needs to be replaced, there may be no clear path forward for the buyer unless a war chest is available for major R&D.

(The tools and know-how required for DSS cutting head repair have only been offered by etec, as far as we know, and, the amps are engineered in such as way that a circuit card from one chassis may not work in the other chassis if you swapped them, because auxiliary components need to be added in parallel with many of the main resistors and capacitors. Except for the Safety Circuit, the procedures for determining the values of the auxiliary components (which in the drawings are undefined) for the several circuits in each chassis (RIAA, Input, Feedback, Monitor, etc...) are apparently 'firmengeheimnis' to Ortofon / etec.)

So, the value of the spare parts inventory that lathe #2 presently offers the owner has now greatly increased (during the sale!), and the brick-wall that a fellow-troll might face in a few years if he or she isn't very careful with levels and lucky with the circuits would be hard to scale, making this audiophile jewel a potentially very costly 'boat anchor' that might be discarded, one day, with malice and hard feelings for the vendor, depsite its good condition at time of sale... So, while we hope that a sale can be made to a party that is prepared to use it responsibly and can even bring the system far into the future, it may be better for it not to sell, after all.

Fwiw, Neumann lathes have reportedly sold with SAL74/SX74 for $140k. LS-76 #651 sold on Vintage King with a Neumann drive package for $100k several years ago. This system is in much better shape than that was, and is technically superior to any pre-VMS-80 lathe and any drive package by Neumann in the frequency and phase response specifications.

Bid wisely, or just order your hi-fi cuts from AHM. (:

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flozki
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58978Unread post flozki
Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:57 pm

(The tools and know-how required for DSS cutting head repair have only been offered by etec, as far as we know, and, the amps are engineered in such as way that a circuit card from one chassis may not work in the other chassis if you swapped them, because auxiliary components need to be added in parallel with many of the main resistors and capacitors. Except for the Safety Circuit, the procedures for determining the values of the auxiliary components (which in the drawings are undefined) for the several circuits in each chassis (RIAA, Input, Feedback, Monitor, etc...) are apparently 'firmengeheimnis' to Ortofon / etec.)
this is just total fairy tale. sorry to say so.(some nice storys from old men whol love to tell good storys)
i have around 3-4 sets of cards and access t another 2-3 sets and they meassure all the same in tolerances of the parts (dont forget the age and all the heaving modding they have been through all over the years by tech people under pressure)
the cards are all straigh forward. RIAA constants are defined, regulation loops as well, sometimes not the simplest design and a few could be done a little better nowadays. for example to have balanced feedback but these amps sound so much nicer than a stock SAL74.
absolutely no problem to work with them . the thing is that they finetuned every card by adding resistors, caps .neumann preselected values. we now have 1% metal film and can easy select caps. so you can do it often with one resistor. one cap.
these amps are no problem at all to service. you will have an easy to maintain and easy to fix system. i even have most of the cards in stock and a few are already made new or on its way. lots of them reached end of life and a fresh new card is sometimes the prefered way to save money and time.

we dont want to talk here about the LS76 controller cards. this is for the real digital connaisseur. be happy that AH did all the work for you.

the situation with the heads is a little bit more problematic.
as there is no ortofon specs stylus for the moment ( i saw already a few DSS heads with neuman 1:20 shank stylus forced inside..just recently on instagram) . oooooh no!!! you will have poor channel speraration and you destory the very fragile links of the bridge. there is no spare parts at the moment. as far as i know. if there is please send me 2-3. i would love to fix my heads one day.

there are currently new bridges on its way for neumann stylus (correct lenght, correct tapper hole) but the problem of the links is still here.
there is absolutely no market for these heads.
i know 2-3 people using it and otherwise there is noone using ortofon heads on a daily basis except of the few.
so unless someone does not spend 10-15k for a good new batch of links (in acceptable quantities) and maybe an alternative design to make it more rigid (in trade off to change the characteristics of those wonderfull heads ) i dont see a big future except as museum items, door stoppers or instagram show offs.
to make ortofon specs styli is also possible . but as there seem still enough new old stock around (for the few users) the motivation for someone to produce a new batch in acceptable quality is also very little.

if you want a unicorn lathe , with one of the best sounding cutting amps. go for it !
definitely a collectors item on the peak of 70ies design and a fair price if you have the cash ...

happy cutting. if you can.

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58980Unread post Dub Bull
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:42 pm

Here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.discolathe.com/1995/Auxiliary%20Components/Auxiliary%20Components.html

Notice the numbered components (such as R18, which reads 61k9, or C6, which reads 33 n(F)), and then the ones nearby (in parallel) which have the same component number, followed by the letter, 'a'...(such as R18a and C6a). Their values can't be shown because you have to determine them when the boards of the given sub-circuit are inserted together in the same chassis and you then perform the relevant calibration procedure (for that sub-circuit).

If I were to pull a board from GO741 chassis A, and put it in the corresponding slot of chassis B, the subcircuit of the swapped board might still work, OK, or might only partially work, or might not work at all. The auxiliary components of the A- and B- chassis are not identical, and the range of values that Torben dialed in result in a beautiful square wave (in air) when the boards that he wrote 'A' on are together, and the 'B' ones are not intermingled, but the same boards are incompatible for random insertions between the chassis..


To show that this is not an isolated approach to circuit design, consider that the Dunlavy loudspeaker cross-overs are leaning this way, too...though you can get sound out of them even if you change cross-over values, obviously... But the concept is there... A matched set of speaker columns (A and B) will often have slightly different values of resistance in the cross-over of the A and B loudspeaker. The correct value for each cross-over component was done by putting one of the cabinets at a time on a forklift and pushing the cabinet, drivers-first, inside an anechoic chamber and using a measurement mic to record the cabinet while its drivers transduced a known high-quality recording of an acoustic instrument. Using the MLSSA, the Dunlavy's rendition of the known recording is analyzed, and the performance of each cabinet is then 'fine-tuned' to make each cabinet more perfectly behave like its matching cabinet than identical cross-overs could achieve with the same driver models in each. However, in the Ortofon amps, they often won't even work unless the calibrated set is installed in the correct chassis, and if you change a component, it might well need a different 'helping' component...

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flozki
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58982Unread post flozki
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:59 am

i know the papers. i had many of these amps passing my desk....
However, in the Ortofon amps, they often won't even work unless the calibrated ..
this is just not true. some companies use potis to adjust ortofon other use fixed resistors.
but its just fien tunikg to make it better. or to adjust.
if you swap a cutterhead on neumann rack you also make some calibrations. but you have knobs to turn.
you also need calibration on most classic amps if you chang parts. but its a simple calibration

and not "a copmany secret " as you mentioned in first post..
its basic electronics. and calibration.
everybody can do it and it strongly depends on the tolerances of parts, heads.
i swap ortofon card sets all the time.in pratice very little to change.
but i dont use ortofon heads.
i dont know how big the tolerances are. in neumann heads its around 10% or less and within these values it allways works.

so my message is.:
the amps are great , not a reason not to buy the lathe. there is more critical stuff ap potential should bother.

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dmills
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58984Unread post dmills
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:00 pm

Bear in mind that when those cards were designed, good quality trimmers were expensive (and unavailable in the case of caps for audio useful values!), and even the good ones were sometimes of dubious reliability.
There is something to be said for fixed resistors if you cannot just use 1% parts and avoid worrying about it (5% or worse were probably what was used in those circuits).

C5A for example is easy to figure out, this is the 75us preemph when combined with R12, so a total value of 1.8657nF would be technically correct, I would bet on 330pF for C5a being in the zone (The jfet switching it out on 'test' mode is the tell here).

It is interesting that the half speed capable version of this thing (Using a 4016 cmos analogue switch no less!), shorts across C6 when half speed is activated.


The cals that probably matter are output device bias R17(a)(for obvious reasons) and DC offset (used to measure temperature), I personally rather doubt that the rest is all that critical, and certainly nothing that a session with Spice doing some modelling would not give the answers to, Looking at the GO741 schematics I see no magic here.

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58996Unread post Dub Bull
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:39 pm

flozki wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:59 am
i know the papers. i had many of these amps passing my desk....
However, in the Ortofon amps, they often won't even work unless the calibrated ..
this is just not true...

Si... J'y jure. Verily, some of these etec-calibrated cards just can't be swapped (singly) between the A and B chassis of the same set of GO741 amps, even though they work perfectly in their designated chassis with their A- or B- counterparts present.

As shown in the post at the link, above, the auxiliary resistance, R18a, for example, is not added so as to fine-tune (to 61k9 Ω) whatever actual Ohmic value that a resistor of a certain tolerance, installed in the through-holes for R18, happens to have. The ideal target for each variable network is unique to the actual 'electrical handshake' made by the other cards of the given sub-circuit while powered up and is determined after the cards of a given multi-card sub-circuit are assembled into the designated slots of the same chassis and by then carrying out some tech sessions, with proper test configurations carefully invoked...

(We don't use the cutting head plugged in during calibration of the Safety Circuit and its several associated boards, of course, though we will be able to make front-panel pot-adjustments with it actually in-loop, later. We need to defeat certain sections of the over-all circuit before we can get the right readings from the right conditions (of voltage and current) when using the factory procedures. It sounded from Hr. Rønne's remarks that the other sub-circuits, including Input, Feedback, RIAA, and Monitor, would need to have similarly rigorous procedures carried out to get it working up to specs...)

Here's the only example I have (which was translated into English):
For the Safety Circuit calibration, the following test configuration is first established:

"Impedance board A0055 is replaced by a bypass (Pins 16-19 joined to pins 20-23, respectively 24-27 to 28-31).
'The offset voltage of 200 mv nominal (adjusted by P6 'Cut out adj') should be measured at the bypass plug.
'The amplifier is loaded by [9]Ω which may be increased to [17]Ω by a pushbutton...
...

[The procedure begins as follows:]


'1. Unsolder one end of diode D2 and lift from circuit.

'2. Put the extension board in the amplifier.
''The A0056 board is not yet plugged in. Pin 18 of the extension board is connected to ground...
'This causes relay 'Cutter on' to pull.
'A DVM is connected to terminals 3 & 5 of the extension board.
'The DVM should read 0.00V, to be adjusted by P4 (front panel 'Temperature Adjust').
'P4 should cause balance at about 50%. If not change R12a on relay board A0059.
'Check again that the DVM changes sign about the balance point.
'When best possible balance has been set P4 must not be touched hereafter [!].

'3. The wire Pin 18 - earth is removed from the extension board.
'Board A0056 is inserted. N. B. This may alter the balance voltage - do not change this.
'Remove bypass connector from A0055 socket.
'Test cutter on/off function. Replace A0055 bypass connector.
'Connect a resistance box across R1 (R1a & R1b should be removed).
'Select 50 K. Bring the deflection of the temperature meter on the front panel onto the scale
'by a rough adjustment of R17 or R18 (R17a & R18a should be removed).
'Control P6 'Cut out adj' is swept so that the off-set voltage measured at A0056 bypass changes from 150 - 250 mVd.c.
'The resistance box is adjusted until sweeping P6 does not produce a change in the reading [!} of
'the temperature meter. Usually the correct resistance on the resistance box will be 30 k to 47 k.
'A fixed resistor(s) of the appropriate value is soldered.
'The meter reading is now brought to 25ºc by fine adjustment of R17 and R18...'

...

It goes on for several more steps, but you can see that this procedure is not direct or intuitively obvious.

Hr. Rønne stated that he still has the test condition and calibration procedure information for the other sub-circuits, but these ones are only written in Danish. Regardless, if you have a copy of these other documents, please send to discolathe@gmail.com.

Merci vilmal

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boogievan
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 58997Unread post boogievan
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:54 pm

...bidding now over.

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 59002Unread post Dub Bull
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:24 pm

As evidence of the disputed claim that asymmetrical compensation of the GO741 networks is needed to make each chassis-amp pair behave as a 'matched' one, I uploaded a photo of some GO741 auxiliary components to a new topic at Discolathe's Ortofon forum.
The attached photo shows the A- and B- chassis Feedback cards (A0060) from one of the 'vintage' sets of GO741 circuit boards that are here. The auxiliary resistors used for R22a are different, and, of course, this causes the net resistance of the R22 network to be different on each card.
Other cards that go in the chassis also have such soldering posts - either for a resistor or a capacitor to help the specific network be optimized electrically for use with the specific cards' interaction.

http://www.discolathe.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=223


(Free reference disk for the next three LP orders received. Inquire by writing: gosub2k@andrewhamiltonmastering.com)

servus

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 59009Unread post Dub Bull
Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:22 pm

...There is something to be said for fixed resistors if you cannot just use 1% parts and avoid worrying about it (5% or worse were probably what was used in those circuits)
The main resistor of an adjustable section is, indeed, 5%... But its imprecision is irrelevant because its value merely needs to be too high, since a precise resistance will be added to the parallel-wired soldering posts, thereby lowering the main resistor’s value optimally (beyond its 5% tolerance)...
C5A for example is easy to figure out, this is the 75us preemph when combined with R12,...

The text within the manual states that this is the capacitor-tree designated to create, with some (undefined) auxiliary capacitance-branches (in parallel), an effective 75-µs emphasis from the board when used with its mates in an amp chassis... But the target value, on-board, isn't going to be 75 µs, apparently… It must be, rather, whatever results in 75 µs actually taking place in the signal output from the amp….
...so a total value of 1.8657nF would be technically correct, I would bet on 330pF for C5a being in the zone (The jfet switching it out on 'test' mode is the tell here).
That makes theoretical sense for an ideal 75-µs filter section . But the presence of soldering posts and the absence of specific values suggested for the auxiliary components, together, only make sense for the scenario of one dialing in a value that is determined experimentally...

I just checked and found that Hr. Rønne actually made a custom adjustment to the new A0089 boards' C5 (1n5) by soldering a 22-n cap across the soldering posts for C5a. The C5 capacitance tree reads 24n5 on my 810C meter - close to the calculated 23n5 for such a network. So, how is R12 (40k2) acting on the boards like a mere 3k062 (R), since I know the effective time constant for that section is making 75 µs (and not 980 µs (!)…).

Unlike the Input boards, which appear to have been packed uniformly, the Monitor boards, here (multiple 'matched' sets), have unique modifications to the filter sections via the aux. capacitors soldered onto the (parallel) posts which distinguish them as an A or B -chassis board.

http://www.discolathe.com/download/file.php?id=280

It is interesting that the half speed capable version of this thing (Using a 4016 cmos analogue switch no less!), shorts across C6 when half speed is activated.
If it has anything to do with the massaging of the record response’s attenuation of bass where there’s a corresponding boost in the feedback (to simulate low-frequency MFB), they’re, both, flat at 25 Hz and below... which is where 50 Hz and below would be cut at 1/2-speed, of course...
... Looking at the GO741 schematics I see no magic here.
While the Orto-magic is not in plain sight, the chassis-designating letter on each card showing that it’s been fine-tuned to work with the cards having the same letter… A or B….is in plain sight, as soon as you remove the lid and look into the chassis (since the boards ship, chassis-inserted).

http://www.discolathe.com/download/file.php?id=281

Btw, I just found my correspondence archive with Torben on this topic in emails from 2017. He stated that the only calibration procedure that was translated into English was for the Safety Circuit, but he had the ones written in Danish that are for the other sections of the amp. It didn’t sound as if he was referring to sections pasted from text books from the Tekniske Højskole.

Incidentally, Lathe troll and Electromagnetic Engineer, tubefan, who sold me the DSS731 (the CD4-capable model) had a reasonable suggestion about nine years ago when he opined that, despite one not having the factory cal procedures for the amps, if a repair ever was needed, the curves shown in the manual for the Feedback and Input boards could be referenced while probing the relevant sections of the boards in a given chassis and consulting the display of an AudioPrecision or similar. {I suppose that it would be wise not to have the cutting head in loop, so, a 9-Ohm resistance could be hung across the drive coil XLR, and, as in the Safety Circuit calibration, the Impedance Matching board would be removed (with jumpers put across various pins in its slot), since that board provides the opposite inductance of the drive coils….(something to be tweaked when you use an SX with this system, like Stan Ricker, Lex van Coeverden, and our AussieOsborne...) (:

servus

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 59035Unread post Dub Bull
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:30 pm

Mesdames et Messieurs, Meine Damen und Herren, Damer og herre, Today, I received a friendly reply to a new, carefully-addressed (adm@...) email...and Hr. Rønne has responded affirmatively that he still accepts DSS cutting head repair and has a line on new parts for future inventory.

Having been shown only a photo of it, Hr. Rønne applauds Florian's work on his circuit board which is to allow the Neumann SX-xx cutting head to be properly mated to the GO741 amp. However, he defends the single-ended Feedback circuit, which uses short traces and leads inside the chassis, and which uses a signal that is sourced from a coil, after all, which he states makes it already robust and low-impedance. (The noise floor of the stock GO741 amps is just not an issue warranting such a redesign. SpectraFoo shows it way low, here.) He also advises those who would balance the signals of the Feedback circuit that the phase-compensation for the feedback loop goes up to 150 kHz, so, a transformer would not be suitable, there, although there is a good transformer in front of the Input of the entire amp with a Zobel network protecting the chassis from the studio lines. Other than, say, the Pickup circuit, which I don''t use, anyway, he feels one has to get up 'pretty early' to improve on this system.
When I look at the curves of the response and cross-talk, I can see why that must be true. When I hear the sound in the groove, it's confirmed. Added to the flat, all-Ortofon response the very stable, rumble-free time-base of the Mylar-belt-driven, quartz-controlled L. J. Scully platter, it's obvious why so many of Tom Dowd's mixes ended up being cut right at Criteria where they had several LS-76/Ortofon systems.

Therefore, the next time #660 appears for sale with its all-Ortofon drive package, it can be with a safe future for the cutting head it's designed to hold (DSSxxx) and can be, therefore, a turn-key solution for your plant or lab.

In the mean time, if you need hi-fi cuts, like eggs, our lacquers are cheaper in the countryside of southern Ohio... $100/LP cut (on 14" MDC) + shipping

A|H|M
gosub2k@andrewhamiltonmastering.com

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Dub Bull
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Re: LS-76

Post: # 60342Unread post Dub Bull
Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:10 am

Jesus I. Agnew's interesting series on lathes at PS Audio's Copper online magazine mentions #660 in Issue 156:

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/around-the-world-in-80-lathes-part-six/.

Full details (w/ new 'replies') are at:

http://www.discolathe.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=222

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