Caruso Cutterhead Discussion

[jtransition]

Original Title of This Post : SX74 For Sale

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SX74 for sale (SW davies tested)
Please pm me for price.
Regards

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=neumann+sx+74&_sacat=0&_odkw=neumann&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

[mossboss]

Not Bad
Flo is Getting Carusso ready for less than $2,000.00 new and If I know Flo most likely better than the original SX 74 so what is going on here Gold hidden in there may be
Argh well
Cheers

[TotalSonic]

I'm excited to see the Caruso come out as well - but I'd say that it's extremely unlikely that the Caruso will match the SX74 in quality of cut. I'm basing this opinion on the preliminary specs that Flo posted on another thread for the Caruso - and also based on the fact that Neumann was a large company with excellent quality control and able to create very tight tolerances for their products.

Seems to me Caruso's aimed to fill a market for a less expensive stereo cutter head that can achieve decent results - but not something aimed at replacing the SX74.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[opcode66]

I look at the Caruso head with the opinion that Flo was one of the engineers who designed the Vinylium head, so why wouldn't this one be even better than that???

I would imagine that 10+ years of experience and ideas would inevitably lead to a better product the second time around.

With respect to the SX74 on eBay, I would buy it if I had the loot right now. Pricey, yes. But it looks like it is in beautiful condition. Looks brand new in comparison to mine.

[TotalSonic]

I look at the Caruso head with the opinion that Flo was one of the engineers who designed the Vinylium head, so why wouldn't this one be even better than that???

To be clear I have a great deal of respect for Flo - and as no one I know beyond Flo and his test team has heard any cuts whatsoever any talk of the quality of Caruso's cuts are completely speculation.

However we can use a bit of common sense to get a sense of what is being offered.

First: Flo has specified that the tested excursion of +/- 100 um versus known excursion of +/- 150 um for a Neumann SX74.

Next he stated here that the Caruso is in fact aimed at the "semi-pro" market.

Finally - the SC-99 was quoted to me with the VC-200 amp/encoder/controller at about $7000 US dollar. Where as the current exchange rate puts the Caruso with the IRIAA encoder/Feedback controller PCB card (so you have to do your own build out and use your own amps with this) at $1585. Regardless of assumed differences between mark ups for these items - as well as difference between the provided front ends - I'd say still there most likely will be some kind of difference in what you can expect performance wise from these two cutter heads.

Also - the resources that Neumann had available to it when they were manufacturing the SX74 were incredibly formidable and certainly can not be matched by what small businesses like Flo's and Vinylium's have available to them today. I say it isn't that far off the mark to state that the caliber of Neumann's engineers and machinists in the 1970's has simply not been exceeded by anyone creating professional disc recording gear today.

So - if anything - seems to me most likely that Flo made the Caruso as a budget oriented alternative to the SC-99 - that might not be equal in performance to it or the SX-74 but allows folks who do not have the budget to afford these tools to have a viable and decent sounding stereo cutter head for their lathes.

This is not a knock on Flo's work or the Caruso whatsoever - I'm just trying to put this into perspective. And again - I look greatly forward to its appearance on the market and am in fact considering getting one for my own lathe.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[opcode66]

All good points.

[mossboss]

Steve
I will buy most of what you said as a straight out comparison resources knowledge and so forth
However
Have you considered that machining equipment are far more advanced today than anything available in those long past days
Since this is an electromechanical device a careful look even at the photos one would form a view that they are machined on very accurate cnc lathes with a repeatability that these Neumann engineers could anly dream about
Besides adhesives and insulating materials now days are far superior than anything available than, another very important component in cutter head manufacture
Most cutter heads cook due to the fact that the insulation as well as the adhesive to keep the coils intact comes loose/adrift with little gaps developing in the windings due to age
This than causes heat build up in spots therefore loss of heat dissipation ability end result Puff and another $3-6 K for a repair a rewind
Another area that has gone way ahead in leaps and bounds is the flat wire used in winding coils for cutting heads from the aerospace program as well as cunductive and magnetic materials
There is no way that the magnetic flux from materials available today can be compared with anything that was available than
Besides and a very important point that you also make is this
The experience that these people had at Neumann was not and it cannot be equalled today
Having said that they did produce and sold a few bummers as well Like the SX 45 I may be the only person left that has one working From what I know they had about a 10 hour life if the cutting guys ever got a cut out of them Mine is used vary sparingly at very low cutting levels more as a curiosity rather than a working tool
It has a serial number around the 210 mark so they did make a few since as a best guess they never made any more than 1000-1100 cutting heads in total over a 50 odd year span
Just a few very important points in my view
So even though what you say is correct the above facts are very important ones at that have not been mentioned
Cheers

[subkontrabob]

This is not a knock on Flo's work or the Caruso whatsoever - I'm just trying to put this into perspective.

Hi, a few points other than those already stated by mossboss crossed my mind, so I decided to share my (highly subjective) perspective.

(I'm not saying the Caruso will be equal to a SX74!)

Finally - the SC-99 was quoted to me with the VC-200 amp/encoder/controller at about $7000 US dollar.

I think the comparison is not justified - that's a complete system with overhead mechanism, controllers etc. If you take only the cutterhead on it's own, they are probably priced pretty much the same. Consider how much time went into the design of those other parts - this time flo is concentrating solely on a cutterhead!

So - if anything - seems to me most likely that Flo made the Caruso as a budget oriented alternative to the SC-99 - that might not be equal in performance to it or the SX-74 but allows folks who do not have the budget to afford these tools to have a viable and decent sounding stereo cutter head for their lathes.

Flo has spent considerable time sourcing parts, tools and knowledge/documentation from Neumann, so the Caruso is probably better than the SC99 and closer to a Neumann head......

add to that what mossy said, now I'm drooling......


......I wish i had a lathe to mount a Caruso to.......

[opcode66]

Be nice to have the man himself chime in on this...

[TotalSonic]

Finally - the SC-99 was quoted to me with the VC-200 amp/encoder/controller at about $7000 US dollar.

I think the comparison is not justified - that's a complete system with overhead mechanism, controllers etc. If you take only the cutterhead on it's own, they are probably priced pretty much the same.

Actually - no. The price of around $7000 was quoted to me by Vinylium for the SC-99 WITHOUT overhead. It does include the VC-200 basic amp/RIAA encoder though - although again from my understanding Flo's price was with a PCB card for IRIAA encoder/feedback controller (granted a value much less than a built out amp)

Consider how much time went into the design of those other parts - this time flo is concentrating solely on a cutterhead!

And consider that Flo is only one person out of a team that designed the Kingston and SC-99. I will definitely grant that Chris Moss' point that magnet technology has improved a bit in the past 35 years is a very good one though.

Flo has spent considerable time sourcing parts, tools and knowledge/documentation from Neumann, so the Caruso is probably better than the SC99 and closer to a Neumann head......

Again - we can all speculate as much as we want to. Until comparison tests are actually run that we can actually hear it's all just talk that doesn't mean anything though.

i.e. The Caruso might be the greatest cutter head ever made - or it might simply be a decent budget alternative. At it's price I think it certainly will find a market regardless of which of these two it is.

I have a feeling some folks expectations might be exceeding the makers intentions for it though. I will be among those who will be very happy if it does exceed expectations. though!

Once again - I need to state that I greatly appreciate and respect Flo's work here and look forward to hearing some cuts made by the Caruso, and am thinking of purchasing one if it does in fact come to market sooner than later.

I do also want to mention in terms of additional price comparisons and option for those like me also looking for an inexpensive stereo cutter head - that the going price for a Westrex 3D restored to original spec working condition from HRS is currently $2100.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[subkontrabob]

Again - we can all speculate as much as we want to. Until comparison tests are actually run that we can actually hear it's all just talk that doesn't mean anything though.

true - imagination, speculation, fantasy, that's human nature - and the reason why internet forums are so popular

[flozki]

hehe. time to say some words from my side.

i would say sx74 is definitely a great cutterhead. it was the best at the time.
and also to say if propperly made or serviced this is THE standard no question. there is nothing negative to say when in good condition except the price and availabiltiy

But this beast is 40 years old, most deteriorated,worn out or even badly serviced. the last repaired or serviced by neumann with the original specs and parts : 20 years ago.
all others made out of parts coming from other dead heads or if fixed during last 5-7 years by vinylium with new parts.

and the cutterhead departement by neumann was i would say not bigger than the one at vinylium.
maybe 2-3 people.not more. on the net you can find a picture of the original workspace. a small business. neumann made in total around 500 sx68 and approx 500 sx74. and man of the sx68 have been upgrade to sx74.so 1000 heads in 30 years.so thats 33-50 every year. lets say 1 per week. this is more an exclusive watchmakers busines. this was never an industrial product.

but as mentioned in other posts magnets, materials,glues, wires. cnc manufacturing possibilites are way better than it was 40 years ago. and this is where we can profit for new designs. also i have seen many dead sx74 and repaired a lot of them. i know the strenghts and weakness of those heads...

so the caruso is made to fill the gap for a cheap and affordable cutterhead.
its original idea was to give an alternative to buy something else than an old worn out grampian (or an inaccurate westrex) for almost the same money.
this has to be in focus.

so never ever make a comparison to an sx74 at the moment !

i am extremly conservative with my technical specs.
and if i say i have +/- 100 on a measured system then i mean this is not the mechanical limit. its just what i measured out so far.
an SX74 has a mechanical limit of 120-150um in the forward direction. when all is perfectly alligned. so the excursion of the +/-150um is very very rarely achieved. out of 10 heads maybe one. and then at 150um it has a hard stop. on sc99 and also on caruso there is not such a mechanical limit.
on caruso i have a mechanical play of more than 200-250 um.

neumann sx74 had 200 degree celsius as top coil temperature.
the wire i use for the basic caruso has 200 degree ceslsius for 20000h guaranteed. not as a a top temp. and i can get even better bonding wire.

the neumann has ordinary ferrite magnets. after 40 years most of them have lost a few percent ,if not more, due to thermal peaks or other influences.
i use NeFeB magents. so i can get even a stronger field.
also i had in comparison to neumann the luck to use finite element software to simulate the magnetic system on a computer....

i had my vision of the ultimate head. and some experience with sx74,sc99.
then
simulation, development and CAD modeling in done by one of the top innovation companies in switzerland.
http://www.creaholic.com/

also the number of parts compared to sx74 is reduced to a minimum. only with modern 5axis cnc milling it became possible to produce the caruso head block economically.
all my parts are produced by top mechanical suppliers in switzerland. i live in the heart of the swiss watch industry. high precision mechanic shops are allover here.

also i finance the whole development by myself. no investors and shareholders i have to share my profit.
all that is an answer how i can make it so much cheaper.

sure i am quite positive to come to a close performance with even a basic caruso. the main idea is to bring a cheap head and to have a good basis for upgrade or even high quality head.


this concept was already used for the sc-99 head.
same basics for semipro and professional use. most recent materials available are used.
basically the sc99 was the same for the kingston cutter as for the selected pro user on a neumann. just the manufacturing for the pro version was done more accurate (matched, and selected coils, higher quality cabling)
and the sc-99 with a proper preamp and an experienced cutting engineer will do fantastic cuts.
for example
http://www.musicangle.com/album.php?id=553
this record was made with an sc99. so there is proove that you can cut decent records also with an sc99.


but the difference between caruso and sc-99 is that for caruso the main parts where mechanical comptatibel for neumann sx68,74. so we could produce the volume needed for propper service and repair of neumann heads.

with the carsuo i didnt had any limits. the onyl limit where cutting angle and size to fit on a neumann lathe. a few parameters are chosen to match for example impedance so a goal is to have a 4.7 ohm version that it will work on existing cutting systems. but it is a nice to have. if i see i have better results. i will make it with whaterver impedance i think is good.
the caruso coil diameter is chosen to have best performance. the coil springs have optimised and FEM simulated shapes. the material is the best spring material available now. this was not ready 40 years ago....so i just took whatever i thought is the dream for my new head. sure not all is used for the 1500$ version.

for me to make the carsuo will give a higher volume of mechanical parts and then out of this familiy i generate a high professional version. which is just on request and in very limited number
for example with ceramic coils (where a set of coils cost as much as a basic caruso cuttterhead). improoved feedback system..whatever.
this is the idea.

if the caruso will be a good cutterhead. time and experience will tell.
as i still dont have a full functional head with all the final parts the performance is totally speculative. yes. maybe its close,better, worse than sx74. i just dont know yet.
but my experience and all recent test results tell me that caruso will be a decent head. and for sure a better alternative to what is around for $1500.
(my personal dream is to buy a cheap plastic made in whatever head for 50$ which cuts great in stereo....)
also i hope there will not be a new sect created (as for another product on this forum...) which thinks caruso is the ultimate stuff.if it will become the best.thats cool. but if not. no problem.
so, whenever available: buy it. use it and tell me whats good or bad.

and sorry for the delay.it was on standby for almost 6 month last year. i just can not afford to stop all my other activities and to concentrate 100 percent on this project. but there is a lot of progress going on during last 2month.
and there is some pressure now to finish the first heads.

f.

[mossboss]

Yes Sir's
Do not I know Flo?
Adhesives, wires, magnets, cnc, mech parts, etc etc
T model Ford to 360 Monza Ferrari?
Ok may be stretching it to far
Thank You Mr F.K.
Cheers

[TotalSonic]

Flo -
thanks so much for chiming in here with more info. I'm very much looking forward to seeing your project come to light!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[opcode66]

I have the utmost condifdence in you Flo. I know this head will be better than anyone expects. Your resume speaks for itself.

I look forward to trying the initial head mostly for doing plastic cuts. If and when you make pro heads available I wil certainly get one as well.

[theartofmastering]

With all due respect but practically every moving part of the sx74 head can still be made. Coils,windings, ceramic shafts and yes you can use new adhesives. Anyway normally it is not necessary to cannibalise an old head.The main attraction of the caruso head is the price setting. And as Flo states it is not meant to be a replacement of the sx74. I find it typical that people keep on dreaming of top quality at the lowest price possible. I never started out in this business to do it as cheap as possible only as good as possible. The only head so far which was totally superior to the sx74 is the Ortofon 821 but ofcourse to fragile for dance levels and a bit strange service. However I have tried the Corinth head and that one is absolutely better than the sx74 due to new magnetic material and a higher resonance frequency It almost sounds like an Ortofon. downside, yes, yes Expensive, around EUR 8000

Maarten de Boer
The Masters
Emil Berliner Studios

[Aussie0zborn]

Maarten, do you have a photo or more information on this Corinthian head?

I'm thinking of putting a Caruso head on my Presto 6N when I get around to restoring it. I have had it for 26 years and will probably get around to it some time soon. What sort of amp will I need?

[flozki]

With all due respect but practically every moving part of the sx74 head can still be made. Coils,windings, ceramic shafts and yes you can use new adhesives. Anyway normally it is not necessary to cannibalise an old head.

sure its possible. and thats what vinylium did.

and cannibalising heads was the way the "official neumann service" worked after neumann was bought by sennheiser and they stopped all activities and sourced out to their former service guy.

about the corinth head:
i think there was a small picture on the january issue of stereo magazine.on the last side you can see it. from side. and some details in the february issue with a detailed report about cutterheads.. i think these are the only pictures i have seen so far.

(as you can see. many parts taken from a (cannibalized) sx68/74.
magnet systems are improved and springs are different. )

and the stereo text in german. maybe i should not post it here.
so officially you are not allowed to access these files! and therefore i dont publish a working link:
.../caruso/stereo022011a.PDF
.aruso/stereo022011b.PDF
..so/stereo022011c.PDF

but maybe Marteen has better pictures if you tested it out...
would be great to see

corinths head is definitely nice. but maybe a minor 2nd downside (beside the price and delivery time). the builders age. 71? so whats in 5 years 10 years?and also a one man show with lots of other activities.
if someone is willing to pay 8000 euro. i quit immediately all my other jobs and build you a super high end head for sure.

[jtransition]

Sorry to break up the derailment but i have relisted the SX74.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neumann-SX-74-Stereo-cutting-head-/190497051223?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c5a825257

Continue...

[mossboss]

Interestin Indeed
I heard someone talking about this head in the UK The suggestion was the Mr S. Davies was involved in the project Any truth in this Or is it strictly a German product
Would really like to know
Flo,
I am glad to hear you say that if people are willing to pay 8K for a head you would quit all your other projects and concentrate on that alone
I am affraid you better stay with what you are doing or you may go hungry waiting for the 8 K per head orders mate
Cheers