GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn

User avatar
Phinster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:47 am

GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36836Unread post Phinster
Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:58 am

Any cutters here had an 'experience' when sending lacquers for processing to GZ?

User avatar
Aussie0zborn
Posts: 1822
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36859Unread post Aussie0zborn
Thu Aug 20, 2015 6:17 pm

If You are using 3-step plating it might be good idea to specify if you want the mothers made from your lacquers to be polished or not. Polishing the mothers diminishes any horns on your cut but also removes any modulation that might be in the horn (which isn't much, but that's the theory).

There was a discussion with GZ in another forum about scuff marks on the record caused by sliding the record in and out of an unlined paper sleeve. GZ advised this was to do with their client demanding their mothers made from client-supplied lacquers never be polished and this is the natural consequence. We had the same issue with direct stampers (one-step plating) when we went from poly sleeves to paper sleeves and this was a good lesson in learning to minimise stylus heat. GZ is a huge plant with all the resources and their plating department is super impressive so have no fear.

I'm not sure why you would want to send lacquers half way across the world and increase the time between cutting and plating and suffer high frequency loss as reported by Sean Davies in his little experiment. And if the package is subjected to heat and sunlight there is further movement of the cut lacquer groove. Sure its been done before but why degrade your cut? Is it possible to plate locally and after checking your mothers, sending them off to the pressing plant?

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36879Unread post mossboss
Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:14 am

There is a pm for you on the matter.
Not sure what the fark the monkey is talking about
Never mind
Cheers
Chris

User avatar
Aussie0zborn
Posts: 1822
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36883Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:33 am

Quite simple really. Read about it here...

From GZ :

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/gz-vinyl-quality-control-or-lack-of-see-pics.310015/

One might take particular note of this bit:


I got a reply the other day from GZ:

"Dear Jon,

My apologies for late reply but we are now very busy with workload comming before Record Store Day.

I am very sorry to hear that you do not like the quality of records you bought.

This issue which is visible on the picture is know as horns issue. Horns appear on records when supplied lacquer cut is not top quality. This issue is very well know in vinyl pressing industry and you can read more details about this in attached document which was created by third party, so this is independet opinion.

For both titles we were supplied lacquer cut in studios in UK and thesrefore we do not have so many options how to affect this unpleasant visiul effect. The only way would be to polish mothers before processing for stanpers but we do this only on special request from Universal Music, we do not polish uatomatically all mothers processed out of lacquers supllied.

This is issue is only visible issue, this does not affect the music negatively. We are not able to identify this issues in-house because when we press the records they look absolutelly perfect, these marks appear after futher handling (vibrations during transport, pulling out the records from inner sleeve, handling etc.) therefore there is no way for our quality control how to identify this issue.

This horn issue is in relation to lacquer only, so when we cut music by DMM there is no problem like this. We are in daily communiation with Universal Music to use studios where the cuts into lacquers come out perfectly and not to use studies where these issues appear often.

I would like to help you and change the records for you but these were ordered by UMGI at GZ and therefore you have to claim this and ask for change at the place where you bought these records.

I strongly believe you understood my explanation above and you will keep trust in GZ Vinyl production.

If you have futher questions pls let me know.

Kind regards,

Jaroslav Jungman
Customer service manager - Vinyl Department"
As to why I say it’s not a good idea to send you lacquers half way across the world, read about it here, posted by our very own Mossboss:

http://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5779&p=35761&hilit=fridge#p35761

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36889Unread post mossboss
Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:25 pm

OK OK OK
So where is the nexus between damaged lacquers and the well known issues of horns ??.
I don't see any connection in Jaroslav's reply
Let's be realistic, no cutter knows what he has cut on any lacquer as he never gets to hear the results of his work until test pressing time In the meantime since the lacquers are at some plant somewhere anything can happen apply whatever
Not sure again if the subject warrants a revisit but if people expect a perfect result with a two step plating process, I am afraid it will most likely be a case of good luck rather than good management
The fact is the crucial step of dehorning and producing a stamper from a treated mother has been done away with to save costs for many years now
One can do that with dmm but not lacquer so here is the issue
No one wants to pay for the process, they all want a fixed price to a variable process It may take a few minutes to de horn a mother but it may take 2-3 days as well
You get excellent results if you do that If not there will always be some issues
May be I am missing something? Or am I? Please enlighten me!
Chris

User avatar
GeorgeZ
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:18 am
Location: near Prague
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36895Unread post GeorgeZ
Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:11 am

Phinster wrote:Any cutters here had an 'experience' when sending lacquers for processing to GZ?
Hi Phinster,

don't worry and send your 'experience' and critique. I don't bit (usually).

Yes, there were and sometimes still are problems with extremely high sensitivity of records for touching by hands even with gloves or for any manipulation (inserting into inner sleeves etc.). Most of time, these records were produced without any dehorning, usually on a request from labels. Both Aussie colleagues visited our plant some time ago and they know the strong and weak points of GZ. A proper treatment of lacquers is the most crucial part of the production and the dehorning process is the second most important one. GZ always had more experience with coppers and DMM process, but the times are changing now and our cooperation with several Czech universities resulted in some progress and better understanding of the effects of burrs and horns on the whole production process. We've got many pictures of grooves taken by a laser scanning microscope from all the parts (good and bad lacquers, coppers, fathers, mothers, stampers, records...). Now it is necessary to improve the process and produce better looking and sounding records.

There are some improvements in our QC regarding input lacquers and coppers (a better metallographic microscope with a camera) and it may result in more rejected lacquers due to kissing grooves and overcuts. Our galvanic department made some complaints, that more horns, burrs, kissing grooves and overcut grooves create worse conditions for their electroforming work and therefore requested increased qc for input parts, incl. lacquers. If our customers want to have perfect records without any clicks, ticks, pops and noise, they should supply us with perfect lacquers/coppers. We also may discuss effects of horns and burrs on pressing - worse separation of records from stampers creating stitching and worse flow of compound creating more non-fills....

I have to say that we received quite a lot of lacquers with overcuts and kissing grooves in the last months, indicating either many lathes are not calibrated properly OR the lacquers are cut intentionally with a zero land between grooves OR using dangerous land economy modes. Also I don't understand why so many lacquers are sent to us without any testing grooves. How the heating can be properly calibrated or the basic width of grooves set up??? It should be a standard for all cutters to include at least 10 seconds of silent test groove on every lacquer - for our qc to be able to measure the noise at least. I think about making this an oficial requirement for all externally supplied lacquers/coppers/mothers. Nobody wants to waste his/her time to press records with high noise and other production problems.

I expect your comments and discussion. It may help also to others readers.
Jiri Zita
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic

User avatar
tragwag
Posts: 1260
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:30 pm
Location: Providence, RI USA
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36948Unread post tragwag
Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:26 pm

thanks for posting George, always good to hear info straight from the source
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
http://www.audiogeography.com

User avatar
opcode66
Posts: 2700
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:56 pm
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36950Unread post opcode66
Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:55 pm

Absolutely! Nice reply. And, a commitment to continued improvement is evident. Fantastic.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio

User avatar
gold
Posts: 365
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Brooklyn

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 36962Unread post gold
Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:48 pm

GeorgeZ wrote:
Phinster wrote:Any cutters here had an 'experience' when sending lacquers for processing to GZ?
It should be a standard for all cutters to include at least 10 seconds of silent test groove on every lacquer - for our qc to be able to measure the noise at least. I think about making this an oficial requirement for all externally supplied lacquers/coppers/mothers. Nobody wants to waste his/her time to press records with high noise and other production problems.

I expect your comments and discussion. It may help also to others readers.
I have never gotten request of 10 seconds of unmodulated groove at the beginning of a side for noise measurements. How would this work on your end? Would you play the unmodulated test groove on the lacquer before plating and measure noise? Then compare the mother playback to that?

It seems to me this could be useful for crackle but wouldn't catch much else. Like most of the other issues you mention.

User avatar
Phinster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:47 am

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37009Unread post Phinster
Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:43 pm

Well George, let me begin by saying that we send out hundreds of lacquers to all the UK and European pressing plants. I have never had any serious
problem with any of them. Sure, occasionally one will tell you that it was scratched or damaged in some way when received,it's impossible to tell how it
happened. Some plants will send photos .Only sometimes you can see what 'damage' has occurred.

Out of respect to the client we always recut these with no charge. We sometimes ask for it to be returned.The shipping costs are not cheap!
Short of taking a picture of every lacquer before we pack it,it doesn't happen often enough to warrant this.

GZ vinyl is primarily a DMM shop as you mention. Reading your website, one gets the impression that you are not really happy plating lacquers
and a 100% guarantee of success may not be attainable. Perhaps you should make this clearer.

I'm encouraged that you are taking steps to improve the lacquer process. If you have specific requirements regarding what you want to see
on a lacquer, it would be useful to know. I'm quite happy to cut a record anyway you want it,and have done so for plants in the past. Overcuts,
kissing grooves should be consigned to history by now,what with the number of VMS 80 lathes out there. Though I must say I have not
encountered any specific problems, or comments from these effects.

I'm aware the factory's have always liked to see plenty of land , a clean groove with minimal horns. By the way, you do produce a mould for all lacquers , don't you?

I have some specific issues (some very silly) I've encountered, but since this is a public forum, it's best to address these through a P/M.


I know there are extremely long lead times to get records pressed nowadays and that GZ can offer a speedier service for DMM at least!

I have seen processed lacquers from GZ that have been returned to me and they look quite good. Most of them from other plants don't survive the silvering stage very well!

I'm sure you are capable of making records from lacquers to the same quality standards of the 'high end' pressing plants.

I trust in the near future that all of this improves for you and conversations like this will no longer be necessary!

Best Regards P ( I too,bite occasionally!)

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37013Unread post mossboss
Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:25 pm

Paul
He also mentions how do you adjust stylus heat?
No doubt this will tell one how much of background noise is expected to be on the track if any
George does a lot of preview of masters submitted to them at the premastering division over there, but that is for media that can be checked out before any cutting takes place
He also checks out quality issues or complains from clients, he has a lot of exposure to a huge variety of issues,
Unfortunately he cannot apply any criteria to lacquers, before they are processed as the only thing he can do is play back the test cut at the beginning, if that's not there, it makes it impossible to do any checks at all
Thought I chip in in this
Cheers
Chris

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37014Unread post mossboss
Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:43 pm

While on the subject
It is public knoweledge that more than 13 million records where manufactured there at GZ last year
If the average run is around the 500 units that's a lot of titles, around the 26,000 more or less
So assuming a very low 1% failure rate that would be about as many titles as the smaller plants do in a year around the 130000 records or about 260 titles, of course these figures are arbitrary However sufficiently close enough to make the point
May be you got a greater share of the failed ones. Ha
Best
Chris

User avatar
GeorgeZ
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:18 am
Location: near Prague
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37025Unread post GeorgeZ
Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:45 am

gold wrote: I have never gotten request of 10 seconds of unmodulated groove at the beginning of a side for noise measurements. How would this work on your end? Would you play the unmodulated test groove on the lacquer before plating and measure noise? Then compare the mother playback to that?

It seems to me this could be useful for crackle but wouldn't catch much else. Like most of the other issues you mention.
There's a standard here at GZ to cut a test groove to every master plate, either lacquer or copper. It has been here since 80s, I think. Test grooves are cut primarily to set up the basic width of grooves properly and avoid insufficient land. Sometimes the lacquer isn't perfectly flat and any variation in groove width/land can be seen when the groove is inspected in a microscope during rotation of the platter just before the cut itself. Also the quality of groove walls (streaky lines or gray color - bad heatening) and its bottom can be inspected to check possible stylus damage (widened or damaged/bottom). And the noise can be measured as an additional benefit of test groove presence. If the noise is OK and the groove looks good, we can continue cutting the audio. After the cut, we look at several last grooves just before the lead-out groove and compare their walls and bottom to the test groove. If it looks similar, there is a high probability that the noise at the end of audio grooves will be at a similar level as measured in the test groove. So probably both the stylus and heating was OK during the whole cut.

The similar is true also for copper plates, but flatness of the copper layer itself is much better after the plate is attached to the platter by the suction. The quality of copper layer and the actual status of diamond stylus (sharpness) are the main factors for low noise of DMM technology. The noise measurements are therefore more important than the set up of width/land, but still it is necessary to have exactly 40 um (or 50 or 60 um ...) basic width of grooves when the pitch computer calculates with this value for groove spacing - to avoid touching grooves and overcuts.

It is a sign of thoroughness and care of the cutting person about quality of cutting when we see a test groove on a supplied master plate. And from my experience, lacquers WITHOUT test grooves are rejected more often than lacquers WITH test grooves. It is not our arbitrariness, they often has worse quality of cut grooves.
Jiri Zita
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic

User avatar
gold
Posts: 365
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Brooklyn

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37029Unread post gold
Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:03 pm

Everything you mention can be checked after the side is cut. Cutting a test groove on every side you cut in a day is redundant and unnecessary to me. Just because someone does it like GZ doesn't mean it will be good (or bad).

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37032Unread post mossboss
Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:36 pm

It has been a long standing standard to adjust stylus heat to suit a particular lacquer
Neumann suggest/ recommends that stylus heat is adjusted per lacquer with playback so as to find the sweet spot by listening to the background noise adjusting the pot so as to get minimum noise than back it of slightly from there.
How is it possible to leave stylus heat at a setting and expect the same results every time? It is a fact that's lacquers are different from batch to batch as well as within one box since rejected lacquers will alter the continuity of a box from the same production run
This is no secret, it is known for many years
So no test cut at the start it means that the stylus heat was set arbitrarily for some lacquer cut at some time, not necessarily optimised for that particular lacquer.
As for the rest I agree all can be checked after the cut
The point being,
I do not think that what GZ likes or does not like has anything to do with the above
It has been standard procedure in many a cutting room for ages
At the end of the day what's wrong with cutters at least taking into account what a plant expects from them so as to have a nice and easy co existence
Let's be realistic
Processing around the 13000 titles in a year would give any one enough exposure to be able to say with a high level of confidence what they expect
I rest my case on this as I have been pushing stylus heat be adjusted on a per lacquer basis for years
Best
Chris

User avatar
gold
Posts: 365
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Brooklyn

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37035Unread post gold
Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:01 pm

mossboss wrote: I rest my case on this as I have been pushing stylus heat be adjusted on a per lacquer basis for years
Best
Don't do much cutting I guess.

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37038Unread post mossboss
Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:53 am

Nah none at all, just like GZ, neither of us have a clue
Best
Chris

User avatar
gold
Posts: 365
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Brooklyn

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37046Unread post gold
Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:49 pm

mossboss wrote:Nah none at all, just like GZ, neither of us have a clue
Best
What is the noise spec I am going for when I adjust the heat per lacquer? How do I measure to make sure I meet the spec?

User avatar
opcode66
Posts: 2700
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:56 pm
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37051Unread post opcode66
Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:33 pm

gold wrote:Everything you mention can be checked after the side is cut. Cutting a test groove on every side you cut in a day is redundant and unnecessary to me. Just because someone does it like GZ doesn't mean it will be good (or bad).
I have had lacquers of varying width in the same box. I'm dialed in for a particualar depth of cut. The next lacquer in the box yields a different width groove. So, I disagree completely. It is totally necessary if you want to insure depth of cut. If you want to pound out sides then I guess you would want to skip this important step. But, why? This is an extra minute per side to do to insure a proper cut for your clients....
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio

User avatar
opcode66
Posts: 2700
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:56 pm
Contact:

Re: GZ Vinyl in the Czech Republic

Post: # 37052Unread post opcode66
Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:38 pm

gold wrote:
mossboss wrote:Nah none at all, just like GZ, neither of us have a clue
Best
What is the noise spec I am going for when I adjust the heat per lacquer? How do I measure to make sure I meet the spec?
You perform test cut on the outer diameter of a master while playing with the tonearm on your lathe. As long as your phono pre has been recapped and maybe even the op amps replaced with better quality ones, then you can in fact monitor the playback of the groove and perform analysis on it with any number of tools.

Adjusting the heat per disc I think is overkill. As long as they came from the same box (lot number) then the lacquer itself should be consistent. Therefore, the heat required to cut a smooth quiet groove should also be consistent per box.

The thickness of the coating is sometimes wildly varying per disc, even in the same box and lot number. Therefore, dialing in depth per disc is a good pattern to follow. Heat can be adjusted once per box. And, heat should also idealy be attenuated from outer to inner diameter automatically.
Cutting, Inventing & Innovating
Groove Graphics, VMS Halfnuts, MIDI Automation, Professional Stereo Feedback Cutterheads, and Pesto 1-D Cutterhead Clones
Cutterhead Repair: Recoiling, Cleaning, Cloning of Screws, Dampers & More
http://mantra.audio

Post Reply