Embossing tech - talk

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jesusfwrl
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Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 35898Unread post jesusfwrl
Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:07 pm

I have been experimenting with embossing using a variety of different equipment in terms of styli and heads. I'm getting pretty good results, but I feel that I don't have much of a reference point. Does anybody have any photographs, through a microscope of their embossed grooves? What sort of groove width are you aiming for? I remember reading comments stating that embossed grooves are not as deep as cut grooves. However, I am getting my best sounding results with groove widths of around 3 to 3.5 mills, which is fairly standard, also for cut grooves.

Also, why not just use some machine oil on polycarbonate blanks instead of lighter fluid? I have tried turtle wax, which didn't work for me, probably because I couldn't get the traditional one. Then I tried lighter fluid which works well but I really hate the smell. Even tried sex lube, which is pretty sticky on the records. I am also thinking trying some of my home made beeswax cream, that I use for maintaining wood constructions. But, it seems that machine oil or motor oil works perfectly good, too, and it doesn't stink as much. Modern engine oil even has detergents in it to clean up any residues from the sticky protective coating on the polycarbonate. I did some experiments using scrap pieces of polycarbonate and dipping them in motor oil for several weeks now with no adverse effects.

Finally, I have been using a heat lamp to heat up the blank but I am wondering if it would be more efficient to use a heated stylus. With saphire, this would be fairly easy, but has anybody tried doing this with steel styli or tungsten? What would the heat transfer be like towards the cutter head?

Most mono cutter heads have the coils placed directly above the stylus, so excessive heat going in that direction is risky business. Stereo heads have their coils further away but I am not sure, how effectively the heat would transfer from the chuck to the linkages and eventually to the coils. If heating up a metallic stylus would be a bad idea, can one of the stylus inventors in the forum invent a metallic stylus with a different material shank to be used for hot stylus embossing? I guess lighter fluid together with a hot stylus could be playing with fire...

Even with motor oil I am not that sure actually. Although, as it is a very different process, I suppose it doesn't have to be as hot as a hot cutting stylus for instance. What if one would regulate the heat to something like 70 degree celsius? It would make it easier to emboss without setting anything on fire. At least motor oil is designed to be in contact with an engine, that runs constantly at 90 degree celsius and can definitely handle much higher temperatures with no risks.

As for the weight, do you guys find that you need to put extra weight on your heads? I have found that a head weighing over 300 grams will work just fine without extra weight, but under that, it probably needs some help.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
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All85
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36166Unread post All85
Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:15 am

Hi
I m testing embossing vinyl , they work good in a stanton turntable.
I play it on a no-adjustable weight turntable but needle skip the grooves.
Any advice?have i to add weight?
Sorry i m not a pro, what does oil or light fluid need?
Many thx

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Gus
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36169Unread post Gus
Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:55 am

All85 wrote:Hi
I m testing embossing vinyl , they work good in a stanton turntable.
I play it on a no-adjustable weight turntable but needle skip the grooves.
Any advice?have i to add weight?
Sorry i m not a pro, what does oil or light fluid need?
Many thx
Embossing records not always play well on cheap turntables without a weighted tonearm
neutral anti-skating and lighter tonearm weight between 1 and 2 grams works best
I'm using a Cleaning spray lubricant (KONTAKT PRF 7-78) it works great but it smells like a gas station.

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tragwag
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36195Unread post tragwag
Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:27 pm

I've found this to be a hassle for years now, on and off, depending on the source material and a whole host of other factors.
The embossing groove is really slight, not deep at all.
And the geometry of the groove makes it a bit harder to track.

The main issue with the non-weighted tables is they get their tracking force (sometimes TOO MUCH force) from pressure, as opposed to weight.
They're still applying so much downward force, but it's such a light arm that it skips and jumps.

I've played many cheap tables that if measured, would have ridiculous anti skate and tonearm weight measures.

You just have to cater to your demographic really, and let people know that not all cuts will play on every turntable.
Also a lot of times the cheaper decks skip because of loud bass. I've had to turn down many cuts just to play on the cheap table, quite a shame really, cutting for the lowest common denominator.

/end rant
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jesusfwrl
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36297Unread post jesusfwrl
Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:19 am

I am testing what I'm doing on some pioneer turntables that are definitely not among the best out there but also not among the worst. I found I was having the same problems as you described in the beginning so I just increased my depth of embossing. I got to the point of 3.5 mill wide grooves which were really quite and tracked perfect but the HF was affected, I assume because of the increased resistance of the material. Reducing the depth a bit to the tune of 2.5 mill grooves has greatly improved things and the records track really good, even with serious bass. I'm still fine tuning it but I cannot figure out why I would have any benefit from shallower grooves. I started off with my own styli, ground from steel, but I am getting far better results with the tungsten styli of John Farmer.
Why do you keep the grooves shallow?
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
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jesusfwrl
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36298Unread post jesusfwrl
Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:27 am

The lubricant on the record mainly acts to reduce surface noise and prolong embossing stylus life.

I do not really have experience with turntables with no counterweight or anti skating.

As for anti-skating, aren't skating forces on polycarbonate more extreme than on PVC? I always find that I need to increase anti-skating force on PC. Having a neutral anti skate force would probably help tracking in very shallow grooves in the sense that the tone arm would already be trying to push towards the center of the record. But, this would accelerate stylus and record wear. An important factor is friction in the tone arm bearings causing drag. Skating forces counter act the drag effect. But, ideally you shouldn't have negligible drag and no skating forces.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
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tragwag
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36319Unread post tragwag
Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:52 am

What I meant was, the embossing groove is much different than the professional cut groove.
even the deepest embossed groove will track differently than the pro cut groove.
add to this that the lathes we usually use for embossing don't have variable pitch and depth, we create more potential for tracking issues.

the turntables I'm talking about are the very cheapest crosley, ion, numark, audio technica LP60, etc
sadly the majority of my clients have these at home, and my records have to track on these usually wildly far from calibrated systems.
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tape
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36527Unread post tape
Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:10 am

the whole issue of embossing was 'solved' many years ago by the soundscriber corp.
Their latest portable models embossed with a tiny tiny diamond stylus, permanently installed. ie. it could be used for many many hours of dication.
Frequency response of these are up to around 8 khz, and could possibly be extended using same stylus with a modern cutting head.
There is room for 10 minutes+ on a 5 inch disc! (constant groove velocity) 33 rpm.
Soundscriber patents are online including the stylus design.
They track without problems on most record players.

If somebody could produce new styli replicating the old ones there would be no more embossing headache!

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The Shank
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36528Unread post The Shank
Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:37 am

tape wrote:the whole issue of embossing was 'solved' many years ago by the soundscriber corp.
Their latest portable models embossed with a tiny tiny diamond stylus, permanently installed. ie. it could be used for many many hours of dication.
Frequency response of these are up to around 8 khz, and could possibly be extended using same stylus with a modern cutting head.
There is room for 10 minutes+ on a 5 inch disc! (constant groove velocity) 33 rpm.
Soundscriber patents are online including the stylus design.
They track without problems on most record players.

If somebody could produce new styli replicating the old ones there would be no more embossing headache!

Do you have any shematic of this stylus?
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36555Unread post piaptk
Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:06 am

According to my buddy who is a jeweler (and looked at my Soundscriber stylus)... it is at best tool grade diamond, sharpened at a 90 degree cone, and raked at about a 30-40 degree angle by the nature of the shank...
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36557Unread post mossboss
Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:58 am

Nice pun! Intended?
"By the nature of the shank"
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markrob
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36560Unread post markrob
Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:48 am

jesusfwrl wrote:I am testing what I'm doing on some pioneer turntables that are definitely not among the best out there but also not among the worst. I found I was having the same problems as you described in the beginning so I just increased my depth of embossing. I got to the point of 3.5 mill wide grooves which were really quite and tracked perfect but the HF was affected, I assume because of the increased resistance of the material. Reducing the depth a bit to the tune of 2.5 mill grooves has greatly improved things and the records track really good, even with serious bass. I'm still fine tuning it but I cannot figure out why I would have any benefit from shallower grooves. I started off with my own styli, ground from steel, but I am getting far better results with the tungsten styli of John Farmer.
Why do you keep the grooves shallow?
One issue with embossing is that due to the fact that that you are moving a circular/conical geometry to form the groove (as opposed to a knife edge when you cut), you get high frequency self erasure. So it makes sense that as you increase the depth, you are wiping out more high frequency detail. I have an old paper on the subject I can email you if you PM me with your email address.

As far as Tape's assertion that the tracking problem was solved by Soundscriber. That's true but only if you record and playback using a Soundscriber machine. It was designed as a system. The U shaped groove geometry generated by a conical embossing tip will always be tough to track with a standard pickup stylus. I'm not sure how well a stereo embossed groove will work since a standard playback stylus tends to ride on one side of the embossed groove wall (or maybe straddle the top edge). In the first case, I would think you would lose the vertical info. I've never tried or tested this myself, so maybe somebody can comment.

Mark

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jesusfwrl
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36562Unread post jesusfwrl
Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:41 am

According to an old book I have, embossing was widely used in the past for vertically modulated grooves. This was mono of course and it actually seemed more practical to emboss vertical modulation rather than lateral.

The shape of the groove depends on the shape and angle of the embossing stylus. If you have a cone with a 90 degree angle, you would only get a 90 degree V shaped groove if you are are keeping it vertical to the record surface. Common practise however is to tilt it back quite far, which helps with reducing surface noise but alters the groove geometry. I am not sure what the tip radius would typically be for different types of embossing styli. Perhaps some of their makers such as Jerry or Farmer John could shed some light? I only have some tungsten styli from Farmer John here and I also make my own out of steel, but not commercially. That's the only types I know anything about.
I've never seen the diamond styli of the soundscriber, so I can't comment on that.

However, the important point here is that the various different technologies used for recording and reproducing records have faded away and the only widely surviving technology is the microgroove 45/45 system, commonly associated with stereophonically cut records. Monophonic records and all other experimental technologies must aim to be entirely compatible with the widely available reproduction equipment if they are to be widely used. Since most other techniques aside from cutting lacquer with a microgroove saphire were developed long before the microgroove records, it is perhaps best to develop embossing styli that will be producing a groove with the geometry as close as possible to a microgroove 45/45 groove. This means that if the stylus is meant to be leaned back and not used vertically, the angle must be a lot less than 90 degrees for it to work properly.

Remember, the reproduction stylus does not touch the bottom of the groove, it is riding on the sides and is designed for sides at a 90 degree angle to each other, weather the modulation is lateral, vertical or a combination of both. Weather the groove is very pointy or a bit rounded at the very bottom is not as important in my opinion, compared to the importance of keeping the two walls as close as possible to 90 degrees, for accurate reproduction.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com

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tape
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36630Unread post tape
Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:56 am

I can confirm that I never have had any tracking problems with soundscriber discs on modern turntables.
Sometimes it can be neccesary to adjust the weight a bit.
On the Model 200, it is actually also possible to adjust the embossing depth - a neat feature!

I am talking about the newest soudscriber models.
http://vintage-technics.ru/Eng-Soundscriber_200_B.htm
Unfortuneately, the close up of the needle here shows one with a broken tip.

To find the patents go to patents online and search for 'soundscriber'
The embossing needle has a an incredibly small point, it's tilted at some special angle ,and it should be possible to replicate it.

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tape
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 36631Unread post tape
Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:59 am

Here it is
Image

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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 37024Unread post rsimms3
Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:17 pm

Has anyone tried naphtha instead of lighter fluid? Same chemical as lighter fluid, but can have different purities. Usually seen as paint thinner or Coleman Camp Fuel. Reading some about it related to use in Zippo lighters I saw that testing evaporation time and residue was a good indication of quality/purity. The post suggested putting some on a piece of glass or slide to time the evaporation as well as check residue concentration.

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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 37086Unread post piaptk
Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:24 pm

I started using charcoal lighter fluid... Definitely leaves more residue and doesn't dry as fast, but it's 1/8 the price, and since I emboss 200-400 sides a day, that is a significant savings. And my cutters wipe off the discs before packing them anyway.
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 37089Unread post jesusfwrl
Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:50 am

I have kept on experimenting with different fluids, but I am still finding good old motor oil offers the quietest cuts. I am buying cheap motor oil for this and saving the more high quality oil for the mechanical parts of the lathe. The only downside is that you need to wash the records with dishwashing soap before sending them off. I am seriously thinking of using a dishwasher for this, modified to work with cold water...

I am finding that I always get a reduction in low frequency response below 50 Hz or so on polycarbonate, which does not happen with lacquer. I am wondering if this is a general property of embossing on polycarbonate or if I am just using the wrong kind of polycarbonate. The only one I can usually find locally has a UV protection and is meant to be used for greenhouse roofs. It seems quite hard as a material but I can get quiet cuts, at the cost of LF and HF past a certain point. The sound I am getting is comparable to a lot of other embossing I've
e heard but it is definitely a bit on the Low-Fi side. It might suit some styles of music but it really doesn't suit others.

What I really like about this process is the ease of making my own blanks and needles.
I guess you can't have everything...
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com

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aaron
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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 37092Unread post aaron
Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:08 am

Maybe this is a stupid question, but isn't it pretty dangerous putting lighter fluid/charcoal lighter fluid underneath a heat lamp and around all the electronics and everything? I've been wanting to try it, but I can't bring myself to do it.

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Re: Embossing tech - talk

Post: # 37102Unread post Bahndahn
Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:36 pm

aaron wrote:Maybe this is a stupid question, but isn't it pretty dangerous putting lighter fluid/charcoal lighter fluid underneath a heat lamp and around all the electronics and everything? I've been wanting to try it, but I can't bring myself to do it.
No fatalities yet reported around here! The combustion threshold of the fluid is a lot higher than what is provided by the lamp.
jesusfwrl wrote:I am also thinking trying some of my home made beeswax cream, that I use for maintaining wood constructions.
I picked up a good lot of beeswax a few weeks ago a friends beefarm in Saskatchewan. I'm using it for machining metal as a lubricant/coolant and it works very well for that. I'm curious about trying a remedy for embossing. A machinist on 'practical machinist' says that a good way to make a cream is to melt it down and combine it with an oil like coconut oil, olive oil, etc. such that the consistency is like butter. Seems like a nice non-toxic solution.

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