Federal Recorder Model 16S

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theironclad
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:33 am

Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35202Unread post theironclad
Sat May 23, 2015 4:35 pm

I recently found a good deal on a Federal Recorder Model 16S but have a lot of questions about it. First off, it cuts at 78 and 33 rpm. The thing is built like a tank. It seems to have all the parts, cutter head, tone arm etc etc but it has a weird cable coming off of it and I have no way to power it and test it. I will post some photos and please let me know if anyone has seen a recorder like this...any info will be greatly appreciated.
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rsimms3
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:01 am

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35204Unread post rsimms3
Sat May 23, 2015 5:07 pm

I have one if these, will post info when I get home. Would like to compare notes. FYI - It only cuts inside-out.

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theironclad
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:33 am

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35205Unread post theironclad
Sat May 23, 2015 5:08 pm

thank you, inside out???? why?

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rsimms3
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:01 am

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35211Unread post rsimms3
Sat May 23, 2015 7:33 pm

So, here's what I know having had mine a little while, but not restored it to working order yet.

1. The four prong connector is for power to the motor and signal to the cutterhead. The 1/4" style connector is for the playback arm. I am guessing these units were sold as a set with a power/amplifier that you plugged into it for mobile recordings. Not sure if it would work with Presto amps like the 87-A that came with the 75-A lathe. You can do a continuity test from the four prong connector to the jack for the cutterhead to determine which ones are which.

2. My rubber idler was cracked so I sent it to Terry's Rubber Rollers for refurbishing, he did a great job. Usually an idler doesn't determine the speed, but with how this is set up with the stepped idler and changing the overall diameter from the motor capstan to the edge of the platter, you get 78 and 33. If anyone knows the math on how this works so I could get my roller changed to do 33 and 45, I'd appreciate the math lesson.

3. The feedscrew is geared and cut to work with the half nut in one direction - inside>out. I called the manufacturer of the cog on the end of the feedscrew and they only make it in one direction so you'd have to completely re-engineer it to go outside in. I would guess this was an early model for Federal because early on for lacquer cutting they cut inside out because of the swarf. You could wrap it around the center of the spindle and not have to worry about it getting under the cutterhead as it cut inside>out unlike cutting outside>in. That made for better usability by most folks because you didn't need to sweep, blow, or suction the swarf.

4. If you haven't lifted the plinth off of the box yet, here's something interesting. The motor is mounted on springs to reduce vibration and apply pressure to the idler wheel. Interesting concept that I haven't seen implemented in other lathes. No idea if it is better/worse than screws/dampening.

5. My cutterhead measures 8ohm. When I bought mine (off eBay) it was advertised without a cutterhead but seeing the wires coming off of the overhead mechanism, I was 99% sure there was one included.

6. Question - Have you taken the protective box off of the idler wheel? I'd be interested to see what yours has under it. I am guessing there is a thumb screw in the post that keeps the idler wheel down on the shaft. My shaft appears to have something broken off inside the center and it won't run without having something to keep the idler down otherwise it just slides up and grinds against the top of the protective box or the idler. I'm going to look into having a new shaft with a thumbscrew manufactured.

7. Did you buy yours off eBay? I ask because I bought mine, then 2 weeks later someone listed another one but used the pictures from the auction I won for their auction. I figured it was a scam on a hacked eBay account.

Here's some pics of mine.

Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

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markrob
Posts: 1623
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:14 am
Location: Philadelphia Area

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35215Unread post markrob
Sun May 24, 2015 7:45 am

Hi,

It looks like you are missing the retaining clip for your idler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retaining_ring

In this era machine, they were typically e-clips, but they may have used one of the other styles (see the link). There should be a shallow groove cut into the top of the shaft that the idler fit on. The clip snaps into this groove. Often times, there was some sort of shim washer between the e-clip and the top of the idler. This served two purposes. It provided a smooth surface to keep friction low and was also used to adjust vertical play under control. You should be able to source the correct clip if you take some measurements and do some searching on the web.

As far as idler math, If I'm understanding the setup correctly, it looks like the the larger diameter operates as a a true idler in the 78 RPM position. In this case the large idler diameter is in contact with both the capstan and the turntable rim. In this case the reduction ratio is:

capstan diameter / turntable outside diameter

Note that the idler diameter has no bearing on the platter speed in this configuration.

When 33 rpm is selected, it looks to me like the larger diameter idler stays in contact with the capstan and the smaller diameter contacts the turntable rim. In this case there is an extra reduction ratio determined by the ratio of the two idler diameters. The ratio should be equal to 33/78 = .423. The original ratio of capstan / turntable remains in place.

If I am correct about this, then you have two possibilities. You can have a new idler cut that changes the 33 rpm selection to 45 or use an VFD (variable frequency drive) to run the motor slower such that the 78 rpm speed becomes 45. If you go the idler route, then the ratio of the diameter becomes 45/78 = .577

You may need to experiment with the ratio because the effective diameter of each step is dependent on the deflection as the capstan and turntable rim is pressed against the rubber.

If it were me, I'd go the VFD route since it will allow you to dial in the correct speed at at any setting. These machines were not known for great speed accuracy.

Mark

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rsimms3
Posts: 427
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Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35217Unread post rsimms3
Sun May 24, 2015 10:56 am

Thanks Mark! I was hoping I could have 33/45 RPM replacing one or both steps on the idler to eliminate the 78 speed. I'll have to check the math and possibly the size of the capstan to see if that is possible. I really like the dual speed on a single idler concept, I wish it was possible with the Prestos instead of the rocker between the two idlers. The accuracy on mine is consistent without a cutting load, not sure how it will be under cutting. The platter is really heavy, 7lbs I think. It's interesting to have the well on the platter instead of a shaft with the bearing sitting on top of the stem mounted in the well.

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markrob
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:14 am
Location: Philadelphia Area

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35224Unread post markrob
Sun May 24, 2015 5:04 pm

Hi,

Make sure you check me to see if I'm right. If I am, you can't change the 78 speed as it set by the capstan to turntable ratio. I guess you could try to have the capstan reduced, but that's a big deal to get done.

Mark

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rsimms3
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:01 am

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 35227Unread post rsimms3
Sun May 24, 2015 7:24 pm

A capstan for this shouldn't be too difficult since it's a single size. Getting a replacement made for a marred 6N was interesting. What I ended up with is close, but just enough off center in the hole for the motor shaft that it vibrates. I'll definitely do the math for everything involved and see what options are available. If only getting the overhead to run outside>in was as easy as some math and a new capstan.

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rsimms3
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:01 am

Re: Federal Recorder Model 16S

Post: # 48040Unread post rsimms3
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:43 am

So, I bought this machine several years ago and it sat. In the past few months I've tinkered with it to update some things. But...I never came back to update that this machine does in fact cut outside in. I'm not sure what I was doing 2 years ago that I thought it only cut inside out but apologize for the error above. I can't seem to edit my previous post so I've posted this update here.

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