Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

This is where record cutters raise questions about cutting, and trade wisdom and experiment results. We love Scully, Neumann, Presto, & Rek-O-Kut lathes and Wilcox-Gay Recordios (among others). We are excited by the various modern pro and semi-pro systems, too, in production and development. We use strange, extinct disc-based dictation machines. And other stuff, too.

Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn

User avatar
nomad
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:39 pm

Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45661Unread post nomad
Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:21 am

HI!

Long time follower and admirer here. I may come into some money in which I would like to invest into a beginner system to get myself cutting my frist records. Once I do so - and finally begin crafting good quality products - and have a system down - is it likely to find enough work for clients to support myself cutting records and mailing them to bands interested in this sort of thign?

I feel like it is a market that could totally make some money - but I want to know what it's like from others who are actually more involved in the world of record cutting than I am. I know there is a TON of work involved - especially in the early stages. I have a degree in audio engineering and a love for sound and records - it's been a long term dream of mine to get something up and going - and I'd just be curious to hear the business side of things from someone who cuts records for a living / side income.

THNx

User avatar
piaptk
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:40 am
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45733Unread post piaptk
Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:08 pm

i think any of the people who do it and *try* to make money at it, will be giggling at this post.

If you go into this as a business plan you will burn out very quickly. A few people are able to eek out a tiny profit, but they paid their dues doing it as a passion. If you ignore the thousands of hours and dollars you will blow during the learning curve, you might be able to make a similar wage as you would at Burger King.

There are a million easier ways to make a buck. Whatever you do, Don't be like every other newbie and start taking orders before you've cut dozens of jobs (or worse yet, before you've even plugged in your machine) similar to the ones you'll be hired for. Cutting one decent record is quite different than cutting 40 of them in a sitting. We cut on four to eight lathes at a time in our studio and still don't make much money.

That being said, if you aren't deterred by the fact that you will ultimately make next to nothing for your time and have to listen to the same shitty harsh noise song over and over again for minimum wage, I've got a working set up I'll sell you.

You can also come to my lathe cut camp in March (see other threAd) and get a taste before you invest. I think anyone who knows the hobby and me personally will agree that it will be money well spent.
I Buy/Sell/Restore Vintage Machines/Parts and Provide Phone/In Person Tech Support
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com

User avatar
nomad
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45735Unread post nomad
Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:06 pm

Thanks for your post!
I'd love to hear more about the setup you have available for sale. Where are you located? Feel free to email me at massmovementt@yahoo.com

THANKS!
-Jake

User avatar
tapesandtubes
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:12 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45746Unread post tapesandtubes
Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:16 am

piaptk wrote:i think any of the people who do it and *try* to make money at it, will be giggling at this post....
+1

I agree with everything that piaptk has said. It's certainly a labor of love.
Presto K8 | 6N

User avatar
drdub
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:43 am
Location: AUSTRIA
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45799Unread post drdub
Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:49 pm

piaptk wrote:i think any of the people who do it and *try* to make money at it, will be giggling at this post....
a perfect post, 100% !
satan spins vinyl

*** www.drdub.com ***

User avatar
powerstrip
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:02 am

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45822Unread post powerstrip
Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:15 pm

Just imagine trying to run a niche market tape duplication service with ONE (70 year old) TAPE RECORDER, and pay the bills.

Then half your products jam when played back on a less-than-perfect tape player. (poly cuts are unreliable)

User avatar
tragwag
Posts: 1259
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:30 pm
Location: Providence, RI USA
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45828Unread post tragwag
Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:44 am

it's certainly a hard market. possible? yes, I've been doing it consistently for over 4 years as my only source of income.
I had A LOT of material help getting started.
since I've been aware of lathe cut records, more than 10 companies have come and gone.
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
http://www.audiogeography.com

User avatar
fredbissnette
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:38 pm

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45850Unread post fredbissnette
Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:05 am

i am getting ready to do this very thing
i do not expect to make money
i expect to pay my rent eat and make records for people
Instagram @styluspressurerecords

User avatar
TThomson
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45860Unread post TThomson
Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:47 pm

I have a small studio and I charge people the absolute bare minimum so I can just keep cutting. All I try to have the sessions pay for are the cost blanks and to keep me working the machines as much as possible.
It's 100% a labour of love.

User avatar
sat159p1
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:02 pm
Location: Cottbus
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 45900Unread post sat159p1
Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:51 am

it's all about fun and love. only.

if you think about making money for a living, invest setting up a pressing plant.
i can't image working with 30*C room everyday to cut a few records.
also if you don't have mastering knowledge, you'll end with mediocre results
the same for electronic/machinery knowledge

User avatar
jesusfwrl
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 2:24 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46031Unread post jesusfwrl
Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:50 am

Cutting plastics is very unlikely to be a viable way of earning enough money to sustain yourself. Whichever way you go, there will always be a bunch of problems, you never even thought about in the beginning regarding every aspect of the craft.

Equipment failures, no parts available, extremely specialised manufacturing needed if you are thinking of making your own parts, styli being more fragile than you originally anticipated, blanks being less perfect than they ought to be, customers sending you completely unsuitable material with a bunch of errors that you will have to spend hours communicating about, then having to guide the majority of your customers over the phone on how to properly adjust their turntable (if adjustable), and other similar joys.

The worst part for us was the type of customer that this service seemed to be attracting, compared to our other services.

It is a useful way of gaining experience, since you are bound to be cutting your 1000 sides of plastic a lot faster than you will be cutting your 1000 sides of lacquer, if you would ever go down that path. The mileage you gather as a cutting engineer is quiet important, so it is a good way of getting 1000 sides under your belt for educational purposes.
Nowadays I only cut plastic as a favour for good customers, who record an album in our studio and also have the masters cut here, if they also want something to show around before the pressed records arrive. This is from the perspective of doing it on a Neumann based disk mastering lathe, or on a highly modified Fairchild lathe, both of which have been optimised for doing high end disk mastering (lacquer masters), along with a high end vacuum tube mastering console and a bunch of top of the line professional tape machines. The amount of money you can charge for cuts on plastic do not even cover the cost of a single NOS vacuum tube, let alone precision bearings, tape heads, and all the other ridiculously expensive things that wear out the more you use them.

You can technically achieve very high quality cuts on plastic, but the cost of doing so is quite prohibitive for any practical purpose.

To do this kind of job to a high standard, you would need a good background in electronics and mechanical engineering, audio engineering, a few years of practical experience with sound recording and pre-mastering, and a bunch of very expensive test and measurement equipment. By the time you have all that you can most likely earn a lot more money doing other things than cutting plastics. This is what I do, which leaves no time for plastics.

On a cheaper lathe, destined only for plastics, and a low-fi setup, it might be a different story, although from what I am reading above, maybe not. That's not my thing anyway.
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com

User avatar
diamone
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46050Unread post diamone
Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:46 pm

One thing I WOULD do just to get started like a lot of us did is start cutting audiobooks - off of cassette-to-computer restorations if CDs aren't available.

Before I got with Len and his Scully in the early 90s, that's what I was doing. It's good because you can start off with voice-only titles and get used to different depths and groove pitches and use the dollar-back leftover lacquers that still have cutting space on them (some have whole sides left) so you don't have to worry bout wasting a $10 dubplate or a $25 mastering lacquer on some practice cuts.

Get used to cutting both laterally as well as vertically modulated monaural program material so you at least have SOME foundation of what you are doing once you start trying out dramatized talking books once you get some consistently good cuts with the lateral and vertical speech-only titles.

Once you progress into stereo with the dramatized audiobooks that have limited-dynamic-range music and effects to where you won't slam into your substrate if you have the depth wrong - or slam into previous or subsequent groove revolutions if you have the pitch wrong.

Then you can start in with some medium-dynamic range stuff like the old background music material e.g. Muzak or Seeburg or Rowe etc that's available around (from large Fidelipac cartridges recorded into the computer if you can't get it any other way) and then start over with the monaural lateral and vertical cuts with that material.

Maybe a year or two later you'll be ready to start cutting higher fidelity - and even stereo - wider range material up to a point where you can start getting good results with some of the classical. light orchestral and jazz material - and then progress to rock and pop after that - especially once you start incorporating variable pitch and variable depth and other newer tricks of the trade.

Learning the basics from Len Horowitz was no easy task and I can't imagine the learning curve being any shallower 25 years later - but I can absolutely tell you that if you learn it going through the same steps as Len made me go through - whether you end up doing it or not or just being a producer or musician able to EFFECTIVELY communicate what you want your record to be to the mastering engineer - at least you'll be able to talk his language to him where neither one of you will get frustrated about miscommunication.

Len had me go through a lot more hoops than you need to - but I would still recommend doing it anyway.

If you are lucky enough to have acess to both fixed-pitch lathes as well as variable pitch lathes - do like I did and start off on the fixed pitch lathes and study up your physics about whatever you can especially on things like groove depth and pitch - and more importantly how they correlate with one another (e.g. why you can't have a really deep groove and a really tight pitch at the same time and vice versa - (see under Club Singles on DMM) and why stereo takes up more room than lateral-only mono but not vertical-only mono) and other important parameters like that.

I started off cutting 78's at 70 and 96 LPI which was the only two lead screws my grampa's old Presto had - the thing looked like courderoy pants when it was done. For an example of of that - look up some of the 90-second-or-under 78's of the mid `50s. Les Paul had a few, the Boston Pops and there's a couple others I've run across that spread a short song out over the whole disc like that.

Then get into the base pitch with variation like you can get feeding with a reel to reel featuring a preview head - or do it the hard way with a waveform monitor and get ready to close in or widen out your pitch by hand since depending on where your preview head is mounted at - you might have as much as a second or two to catch up to your program material.

Once I started with Len building up on that knowledge - like I said I hated jumping thru all the hoops - but 25 years later I'm glad I did cuz I was able to use that to help e.g. the college's orchestra and choir make their series of vanity records sound better than they might have otherwise.

So absolutely go to Mastering Camp for whoever will have you and lay out your sleeping bags on the floor for however long you can tolerate each other for - and pick up and practice whatever you can before you sally forth.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

User avatar
ejemmons
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: Crestline, California
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46053Unread post ejemmons
Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:05 pm

Yes, it is absolutely a Labor of Love! It is also multi-disciplinary: think of all the things that can and usually do, go wrong! From the prosaic clogged chip tube, to bad tube sockets blowing a master...

The R&D aspect is for me the tipping point: it is a permanent 'work in progress'. But as a way to make heaps of FGL? Nope. Balancing that, for me at least, are the clients: they all LOVE records, and we have a swell time going through the processes together despite the fact that none have actually been to my studio - too far off the beaten path!

It must be said, without Len's friendship, guidance, and insane prowess at making good cutterheads, I would not be doing this now.
Scully "500" with Westrex 3DIIa,
RA-1574E amps.

User avatar
Gridlock
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:41 pm
Location: eugene oregon

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46057Unread post Gridlock
Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:15 pm

Len is the man!
<\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\[[[[[[[\/]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\>
Recordette Sr.......Presto K-8

User avatar
diamone
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46058Unread post diamone
Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:15 pm

ejemmons wrote:Think of...Prosaic....
Which is another good idea. or Wellbutrin, Lexapro, Zoloft... even an occasional Xanax will help you deal with both mechanical and electronic as well as failures on the artist's part. even if
ejemmons wrote:the clients all LOVE records
all that does is allow you to lessen the dosage and/or the frequency.

And as far as the reasoning behind starting off with fixed-pitch lathes and STUDY OF PHYSICS is just like engineers at NASA - the knowledge of physics WILL save you COUNTLESS hours of trying to do the impossible or near-impossible - but it will still give you enough leeway for how far you can push a format i.e. how loud of a dB can you get at 70 or 96 LPI on a fairly fixed +/- 100 micron deep groove (for lateral or 90-110 for vertical without slamming into substrate or knocking into the neighboring groove.

That's b.t.w. how Tom Moulton discovered 12 inch Disco Singles in 1974.

His mastering engineer - a holdover from the 78 days and well-versed in very loud 45's that would sound good over AM radio - besides realizing that the pitch could be widened out from the normal 110 LPI of a 45 back down to the previously mentioned 96 or 70 also calculated how much extra level you could get from such a wide pitch while leaving the speed at 45.

At least if you were doing this in the early 70s when loud records were really frowned upon - and did it like they did to flip the establishment the yellow Snuffalupagus Friend - and got away with it the way they did because the popularity with clubgoers and DJs overrode the label executives and producers - if you blew it you were only out a then-five-dollar mastering lacquer ($25 today) and a$50 cutting stylus ($200 today) - and you learned something.

Anymore - unless you're bankrolled by somebody or something with deep pockets and big philanthropic interest like Jack White - I agree - like most other non-commercial or quasi-commercial art form - the chances of making a living at it are next to nil.
ejemmons wrote:Without Len's friendship, guidance, and insane prowess at making good cutterheads, (many of us)would not be doing this as we are.
When he used to lament about never getting married or having kids - apart from being married to the studio or lab like we always used to joke about - the rest of the guys and I used to tell him over and over and over - he's have to be the King of Siam to result in the number of progeny he ended up with.

With the kind of quality knowledge and friendship that just the members of THIS BOARD pass around to each other and instruct the newbies with and etc - nevermind the record world at large - I don't think a day will go by in the record business for the next hundred years without somebody somewhere preaching a Len Horowitz story to their respective choirboys and getting the same awestruck look from their once-or-twice-removed choirboys as we got directly from the horse's mouth.

That kind of legacy - with apologies to Patsy Cline - you can't buy, make or steal.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

User avatar
diamone
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46059Unread post diamone
Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:57 pm

That kind of legacy - with apologies to Patsy Cline - you can't buy, make or steal.
Scuse me while I go wipe off all the plastic Halloween puke Len would have certainly thrown at me if he had ever heard the above comment either Live in Person or else with Glorious Technicolor Breathtaking Cinemascope and Stereophonic Sound. (slide over to 0:42) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vE4HqEToGw P.S. It wasn't tablecloths - it was napkins and I hemmed - and hawed - the whole set for him after his mother passed.

P.S. Any deep pocketed philanthropists you run across with an equally deep love for records who are looking for a project to support can do so with my DMM CD-4 quadraphonic 33-for-45 playback audiophile project (see other thread).

If that ain't noncommercial art I dunno what is.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

User avatar
jesusfwrl
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 2:24 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46108Unread post jesusfwrl
Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:02 am

Wait, so, cutting lacquer masters is not profitable either?

How about burger flipping?

Or plumbing?

Or space craft engineering for NASA?

Have these also been promoted into the realm of non-commercial art done for the greater good?

We are either slowly running out of profitable jobs, or we are heading straight for the post-monetary revolution!
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com

User avatar
diamone
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:51 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 46120Unread post diamone
Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:37 pm

jesusfwrl wrote:Wait, so, cutting lacquer masters is not profitable either?
As stated above - not for the vast majority of people since you can't hire immigrants at below minimum wage to do it for you while you reap most of the profits like
jesusfwrl wrote:How about burger flipping?
In the case of
jesusfwrl wrote:plumbing
or any other electrical or mechanical trade - again - the union corruption and the immigrants have undercut everybody - which is why sociologists etc all say ``jobs Americans won't do'' because they can't feed their families on that kind of salary.

Look at all the trade colleges or career colleges - especially the ``for profit'' ones. Walk on a campus as an Anglo-American male. Guaranteed you won't see anybody like you - or extremely few if you do - and that includes the vast majority if not all teachers and administrators. Maybe there might be some Anglos in the corporate offices back East - but generally it's a female and minority pursuit.

In the case of the immigrants - they do it because living and job conditions are a hundred times worse in their third world home countries. So they come to a first world country and `do all the jobs the natives won't do' and do it gladly - much to the glee of the companies hiring them AND the customers buying the resulting products - all of whch are cost-conscious.

In the case of
jesusfwrl wrote:space craft engineering for NASA
like every other Government agency - that's a holdover from the Cost-Plus days and yes DOES qualify as noncommercial because there's absolutely zero way that space - or any other kind of research - is ever going to be able to be made commercially viable in any capacity.

Look at drug companies. Heavily subsidized by the Federal Governments of the First World countries in which they develop product - especially those WITHOUT universal healthcare. Then they release their drugs, charge exhorbitant prices for them during the guaranteed period before they become available generically and force the Government by way of insurance companies and other avenues - to pick up most of the rest of those costs and keep their coffers full BESIDES all their subsidies and tax breaks and etc they get.

And the corporations that don't pay any taxes or get most if not all of it written off? Same story. Subsidized by the Government whether directly or indirectly.
jesusfwrl wrote:Have these also been promoted into the realm of non-commercial art done for the greater good?
Pretty much. Only difference is whether the Government subsidies are overt or covert.
jesusfwrl wrote:We are either slowly running out of profitable jobs, or we are heading straight for the post-monetary revolution!
I would say both are becoming true at a very rapid rate.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

User avatar
Dub Studio
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:41 am
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 47540Unread post Dub Studio
Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:55 pm

I have been living off cutting dubs since 2003. Sure its hard work, and there is not a *lot* of money in it, but its like most things. If you behave like a professional, offer a really good product, and market it well, you can charge a decent rate (like any studio engineer doing recording / mixing / mastering / events / whatever) and pay the bills. You can also help your clients show off their music, and watch their careers flourish.

If on the other hand you basically don't have much skill as an audio engineer, and you are no good at mechanical / electronic stuff, then you are really gonna struggle to shift product at a decent price. You can do naff cuts at bulk prices of course but in my experience its really soul destroying because you know the music deserves better, and you won't have time to take pride in your work. Your clients won't do well, and will think again about using vinyl.

Also the financial side of things depends a lot on your locality. If you have a really vibrant local music scene, the local tax regime and living expenses aren't too crippling, then you can have a really rewarding career (at least that's what I have found).

User avatar
platesrecords
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:53 pm
Location: Nottingham-UK
Contact:

Re: Making money / Supporting yourself cutting records?

Post: # 50755Unread post platesrecords
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:19 am

Hi - some interesting discussion here. We all either know or suspect that cutting dubs alone is almost profitless, or at least doesn't bring in much more than a minimum wage job.

Can anyone give advice on where / how they obtained the capital to invest in a cutting lathe? We managed to borrow money and use our own savings; but we are now weighing up whether to spend another £10,000 to getting our lathe up to scratch for master / pro cutting.

If people can share insight on their investments/how they weighed up if it's worth it/any feedback on the reality of the decision would be really helpful!

Also, if you did invest - how long did it take to break even? I have an idea for myself but interested to hear the experience of others

Many thanks

Nick

Post Reply