Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

This is where record cutters raise questions about cutting, and trade wisdom and experiment results. We love Scully, Neumann, Presto, & Rek-O-Kut lathes and Wilcox-Gay Recordios (among others). We are excited by the various modern pro and semi-pro systems, too, in production and development. We use strange, extinct disc-based dictation machines. And other stuff, too.

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timinbovey
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49128Unread post timinbovey
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:56 am

timinbovey wrote:To say lathe cut is crap because it's not stereo, or doesn't have the frequency response, etc is like saying black and white photography is crap because it doesn't do it's best to reproduce the
original scene.
Again, two different things here;
-reproduction
-another version of the original

When you say you'll make a reproduction of a colored photograph and you reproduce it as b/w , something goes wrong...


Not what I said. I don't mean making a black and white reproduction of a color photograph. If you were to take two original photographs of the same scene, one in color, one in black and white. Is the black and white photo by default "crap" because it doesn't replicate the scene as accurately?

Just like making a mono, or not as high of fidelity of a recording doesn't automatically make it crap.

(granted there can be recordings that are SO bad they are indeed crap).

TIB

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timinbovey
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49129Unread post timinbovey
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:02 am

Radardoug wrote:Timinbovey, you are very wrong in one respect. When you attend a live show, it is in STEREO! The perspective will be different for every person in the audience, but it is definitely stereo. We have two ears, and they give us the ability to hear a stereo soundfield. We can also localise sounds in that field. Doesn't matter if there is a p.a. or not. Classical musicians generally dont have a p.a. Go to an orchestra show sometime, and tell me you cant hear from different places. Or are you completely deaf in one ear?

OK, I will concede that technically a live show is in stereo, and that stereo effect can be simply the room, or the stage depending on the venue and performance. My point was, it I attend a rock and roll concert in a venue with 35,000 people watching, NO ONE in the entire place is hearing a stereo mix from the stage. NO ONE in the place is HEARING the bass player coming off the left side of the stage and the sax man from the right. It's a mono mix to "front of hall". So, yes, I suppose you get the stereo effect from room or hall acoustics, crowd noise, etc. But if someone mixes a recording of that live show in stereo and pans the two performers left and right it will not sound like it sounded to anyone at the show.

I will also grant that if you're sitting in the right spot, close enough, at a classical or jazz concert, and there's no PA there is some stereo effect, again, depending on your seating. And certainly more so than at a rock show. I've been to hundreds of shows of all types, from small clubs and coffee houses to fine concert halls to sports arenas. The stereo effect varies greatly. How one decides to record and mix that is what creates the stereo recording and 99 times out of 100 that recording will not replicate the actual live sound.

TIB

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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49130Unread post Tremdall
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:22 am

timinbovey wrote:
Not what I said. I don't mean making a black and white reproduction of a color photograph. If you were to take two original photographs of the same scene, one in color, one in black and white. Is the black and white photo by default "crap" because it doesn't replicate the scene as accurately?

Just like making a mono, or not as high of fidelity of a recording doesn't automatically make it crap.

(granted there can be recordings that are SO bad they are indeed crap).

TIB
Your comparison doesn't hold because when cutting records, you mostly replicate already existing music. Record Cutting is per definition Replication, unless you use recordcutting to create something entirely from scratch; as an autonomous artform, like artistic photography (vs photography as a replication); so not cutting already existing music, but creating entirely new music as an integral process of music and cutting combined. I don't see that happening now. Lo-Fi cutters simply take an already existing piece of (someone else's!) music and make a lo fi version of it. For me that's simply a bad replication. In other words a crappy reproduction. Thus: Lathe Cut=Crap
Some people may like Lo-Fi reproduction of their music, others don't. I personally think, why not show the respect towards someones music and simply cut it sec as a good replication (per definition hi-fi). Why make your own version of it (hence b/w version of colored photo). When you want to make something really genuine, make your own music and make a lo-fi cut of it. Thén you're making -potentially- something worthwhile. Doing it with someones else's music is respectless and no more than a bad replication.
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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fredbissnette
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49159Unread post fredbissnette
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:20 pm

a lot of my clients have come from far away just to pick up their orders just to see my diy machine that cuts(embosses) records and the look on their faces when i play them their music on my turntable is priceless, this is a process that transcends and suspends belief most people think a group of oompa loompas makes records in a large cutoff from the world factory and the thought that a guy in a small shop or garage or apartment can do this blows them away, the sentimental connection that people have to records is as strong as steel.

it is what it is but in the end it is considered alchemy or magic to people that have no gumption or clue what it takes to cut records with a very small investment

whether you built your machine or restored an old one it is a labour of love and just as valid as a record pressed at a plant.
Instagram @styluspressurerecords

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Gridlock
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49160Unread post Gridlock
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:41 pm

Fred's right. It is literally twilight zone tier magic that a single modulated groove can reproduce any kind of sound. Once you incorporate two separate signals into a single modulated groove it's even crazier wizard level stuff. This argument is kind of dumb. Tim in bovey is right. I also like Fred's oompa loompa comparison. Friends of mine who watch me cut records on the regular still ask me about my "record press". I don't care! I don't even smack them around, refuse their business or even correct them! Because what I do makes me a wizard to these people, literally on a higher plane of existence. I am so glad this hobby chose me, and I don't give a shit if I ever make a single dollar on it. Also, when I need something to happen in my life, I make a spell and cut a record of a song that encourages that thing to happen in my life, physically carving my intentions into a permanent medium that will never become obsolete unless destroyed. A while back I had my landlord issue an eviction notice so I cut a record of "corner store" by Jonathan Richman (in addition to other preparations) and took my slumlord to court AND WON. I was even granted a few months free rent from the judge. Don't forget the valuable work you are doing, people. Without purists and analog assholes like us, culture, music, society, art, and the very planet we live on and the infinite (?) Cosmos is DOOMED!

I DARE YOU TO BE AS WEIRD AS ME.
Ps. My 45 rpm flexis are sounding pretty good
....if you like CRAP

P.S.S. Jonathan came to my town a while back and I was able to give the 7" to him. Rad stuff
<\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\[[[[[[[\/]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\>
Recordette Sr.......Presto K-8

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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49162Unread post Tremdall
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:12 pm

@ gridlock & fred:

Love these texts! I'm all for wizardry so you got me in a spell now... oompa loompa! Who cares for hi fucking fi... :)
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.


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MEGAMIKE
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49181Unread post MEGAMIKE
Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:51 am

great work Jono...

the biggest myth out there ..thankyou for your example..

biglove..

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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49183Unread post Tremdall
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:30 pm

jonoaustin wrote:There's always this: https://youtu.be/Nfvykg7no5g
Well done, thanks for the upload.
Very quiet indeed.
You apparently chose for a direct copy from the CD which had more low end. Because of this the bass on the lathe sounds a bit boomy. But I'm 100% certain you can get the bass sound more natural like the LP version with some equalizing.
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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jonoaustin
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49184Unread post jonoaustin
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:59 pm

Tremdall wrote:
jonoaustin wrote:There's always this: https://youtu.be/Nfvykg7no5g
Well done, thanks for the upload.
Very quiet indeed.
You apparently chose for a direct copy from the CD which had more low end. Because of this the bass on the lathe sounds a bit boomy. But I'm 100% certain you can get the bass sound more natural like the LP version with some equalizing.
Yes, CD has more low end throughout. I cut it flat. Sounds boomy compared A/B'd to Cisco by the time the 3rd song rolls around, as the low end was cut dramatically on the Cisco. It sounds good in context when played by itself, however - much like the CD does. There are a bunch of masters that exist for this record on both vinyl and CD. Nimbus, Steve Hoffman, Bernie Grundman, etc etc. They all sound different....so a cut flat from the CD will sound different than the Grundman vinyl master of the Cisco. Anyway, the purpose was just to see how a lathe-cut (VR) could sound quality-wise with a well respected piece of vinyl. It was fun to do.
Jon Niess
Austin Signal
https://www.austinsignal.com/retro

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jonoaustin
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49185Unread post jonoaustin
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:48 pm

timinbovey wrote:Random thought followup:





For me, stereo is crap. if somethings been recorded multitrack then a stereo mixdown is created, you hear what someone decided it should sound like.
If you record from a spot at a given performance in stereo with two mics, those mics better be about 8-10" apart. Cause that's how your "stereo ears" hear it.
Anything else is not even a close reproduction.

In fact, nearly ALL of the classic rock songs that were also hits (it's a long list – from the Beatles to Steppenwolf and everything in between) were hits because they were played on the radio. MONO AM radio. Rock/Top 40 stations in FM stereo barely existed prior to the mid to late 1970's and even then were few and far between. Studios were specifically mixing and releasing records in mono, and designed specifically to sound as good as possible on mono AM radios with limited frequency response and one speaker. I was a teenager in the 70's, listening to the songs and buying the records. People were listening to and buying mono records. I have well over 40,000 records in my collection. I can pull nearly hit 45 off the shelf and see it was in mono. Of course there were exceptions but they were few and far between.





The biggest thing to screw up music was the implication of the scam called stereo. When you listen to a classic rock album, and the drum set is panned across the stereo spectrum, where the drummer works the drums set from one side to the other, and the sound goes from one speaker across to the other, what the hell is that?

For most general listening music should be mixed mono.

Unless you're a hardcore stereo fan who sets up a good system and finds the perfect hot spot to sit where you can hear the stereo balance and mix perfectly. Then you hear everything, and you hear the fake positioning of the individual instruments as someone decided they should be. But remember, in real life, unless you're standing at the front of the stage you have no real spatial reference as to where the sound is coming from, and listening to your stereo system you don't either, unless you're standing in the front of the “stage” created by your system. The difference is the recorded sound rarely replicates real life, ESPECIALLY in classic rock. With classical music, or jazz, they tend to leave the mix alone and just use the stereo effect for some depth. This is rarely the case with classic rock.

The second you move away from that hot spot center position, you're not hearing all the music. And you're certainly not hearing stereo sound. It's only “valid” when you're in the right spot.

When you're listening to stereo and the singer pans from left to right, are you to believe he's on stage blipping from left to right and back while he's singing? That the guitar player is somehow panning himself from side to side? Even if you're at a live show and the guitar player is moving about the stage from left to right, his AMP is staying put.

Who wants to hear classic rock in stereo in their car? The balance is way screwed up because of your position to the speakers. What if the lead guitar is on the right and you're driving and your wife has her leg in front of the speaker on her side? It's all just gimmick mixing tricks BS. Switch the radio to mono, turn it up, and hear EVERYTHING.

Classic rock owes it's hits and success to songs played on mono AM radio. Damn near all classic rock hits were mixed to sound their best in mono. Even the Beatles were mixed for mono radio and record player purposes and the stereo work was done much later.


Tim in Bovey
Given this wonderful rant(!), I would respectfully submit the following. Single microphone, no DI, tape delay and spring reverb while tracking. No effects post: https://youtu.be/cUx_uFBjoho
Jon Niess
Austin Signal
https://www.austinsignal.com/retro

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fredbissnette
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49188Unread post fredbissnette
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:40 pm

thats dope
Instagram @styluspressurerecords

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SONARC
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49876Unread post SONARC
Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:29 pm

Are there rules in this game? Darn, I must have missed that memo.

I've been listening to whole mono vs. stereo debate for years, as though there can't simply be both.

If I've learned *anything* in all my years working with sound, it's that *everyone* is an expert, when it comes to mattes of personal taste.

In my record collection I have a lot of duplicates of the same LPs - well, not exactly *duplicates*, one is the mono edition, and one is the stereo edition. I also have some old mono Newcomb phonographs, and a couple of present-day stereo, hi-fi turntables, and they all get equal rotation in my house, depending on the mood of the day. If you don't like mono, you don't have to stick around if I feel like firing up one of the Newcombs. If you're offended by stereo, you're free to leave if I feel like spinning the Rek-O-Kut or one of the Audio Technica units.

To *my* ears, and my aging brain, stereo is a neat technical effect, and little more. It's a bloody nuisance if I'm wearing headphones, especially if there's a lot of crazy panning or separation happening. Likewise, if I walk away from one speaker, I'm not comforted by half of the sound suddenly disappearing. Everything is mono to me, it's just a matter of how many channels - generally two, since I have two ears. Now feel free to flame at will, but rest assured you won't tell me anything I haven't already been blasted with from a number of experts for years. And really, why bother? Everyone likes what they like, so does someone telling them they're wrong to like it make it so? I don't think so, but I'm just some dude with a few half-informed opinions, pretty much like everyone, I reckon.

It *does* seem a bit ironic, though, for someone to come into a room called "Lathe Trolls", just to spew vitriol about lathe cuts. Just sayin'....

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Discomo
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49904Unread post Discomo
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:54 am

Last remark:
Are you from the Lathe Trolls Anti Subversive Control ? :)

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ilium
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49910Unread post ilium
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:11 am

GroundHog0420 wrote: It *does* seem a bit ironic, though, for someone to come into a room called "Lathe Trolls", just to spew vitriol about lathe cuts. Just sayin'....
Actually it seems entirely appropriate, the irony is complaining about it when they do! :lol:

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grooveguy
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49969Unread post grooveguy
Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Hey guys,

This is getting almost 'political,' in that two sides are creating a very divisive situation among us. Some of our members are content with being able to recognize the tune they just recorded on a plastic dinner plate; others demand "Red Book Digital Quality" from an electro-mechanical process that never will be able to quite deliver. As someone up the thread said, 'let's just try to get along here'. From the Recordio experimenter to the Neumann professional (whose lathe isn't quite paid-off), "Beauty is," as the saying goes, "in the eye of the beholder." We're all here because we have a love for, or fascination with, a 'legacy' process of sound recording. Let's enjoy it.

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Discomo
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49977Unread post Discomo
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:05 pm

grooveguy wrote:Hey guys,

This is getting almost 'political,' in that two sides are creating a very divisive situation among us.
No not at all. People are entitled to give their opinion. Only because we all cut records doesnt mean we have to agree with each other or like what the other is doing. Respect- yes thats always nice and valuable. But there should be room for people to ventilate their concerns towards quality and the public opinion about hand cut records. 'Lathe cut' doés have a bad reputation in terms of hifi. That's just a fact. Nothing wrong with lofi, but when you're proud of lofi, why not simply profile your lofi record more clearly? Then everyone is happy. Because of unclarity in the public opinion -which is the fault of the lathe cut community as a total- the cutters who cut hifi suffer from the lofi cutters. I'm much for better profiling. I assume this is a common problem in free professions where there's no overall quality control. But better profiling of what product you deliver, wether lo or hi fi, wíll help.
Like there are different types of wine, there are different types of hand cut records. But no one likes to buy a bottle of chianti when he wanted a riesling.

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meltingpotsound
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 58678Unread post meltingpotsound
Sat May 29, 2021 6:56 am

Here we are in 2021, before 2015 lathe cuts were certainly crap. But not until yours truly, Rich Flores at NY lathe cuts, I re developed the sapphire embossing stylus that was invented by Frank L. Capps in 1932 or 36. I can easily claim that the sound you can get when embossing polycarbonate plastic is as close or as good to a lacquer cut in sound quality when recorded on a good lathe. You should record with levels at -4 dB -3dB to avoid skipping and no deeper than 4 mils 3 mils is best to avoid surface noise .
No need to use DW-40, lighter fluid, or Pledge Wax and furniture polish or heat lamp. Just emboss the dam thing at room temperature, DRY !.

So all you lathe cutters out there, stop listening to BS and those who say otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPIquSTB9EpX1K1mo_4sXoQ
https://nylathecuts.com
Rich Flores

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