Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

This is where record cutters raise questions about cutting, and trade wisdom and experiment results. We love Scully, Neumann, Presto, & Rek-O-Kut lathes and Wilcox-Gay Recordios (among others). We are excited by the various modern pro and semi-pro systems, too, in production and development. We use strange, extinct disc-based dictation machines. And other stuff, too.

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Tremdall
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Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49011Unread post Tremdall
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:15 am

Sorry to say, but I've seen so much bad quality lathe cut releases through the decades that for me personally the term lathe cut is synonymous with low fi, hiss, rumble, mono what have you.
I have a music label myself and cut records on a Vinyl Recorder with which I get fairly decent results. I've got compliments from both musicians and audience for the quality which resembles that of a good pressed record.

Because I hold high quality in high regard, I prefer to avoid the nomenclature lathe cut for my records.
Technically they are lathe cuts, but since the term is so much associated with crap quality, I just announce them as hand cut records and mention specifically that the quality is like a pressed record and not that of a regular lathe cut.

This is more a comment than a question here, but still wondering if other cutters on the forum feel the same.

I can appreciate the love people have for old mono machines, but I feel it's for them more about the love for the machine than making high quality cuts.

In the modular synth community lots of people get a kick out of collecting literally walls full with modules, but they don't make any music with them. They simply look at their equipment, turn some knobs now and then. They can even be specialists and you can ask them anything when you have a technical question. But they are not professional musicians, nor do they even make music with it. I'm a professional musician and hardly know anything about the technical part. Same for cutting, hardly know anything about the technical backgrounds but I do seem to be able to get good results. So I can imagine the same goes in the cutters guild - people here who just love the machines but hardly cut anything? People who hate the bad name 'lathe cut' has?
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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timinbovey
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49014Unread post timinbovey
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:47 am

A lathe cut record can certainly = crap.

However, it can also mean the highest quality possible. Remember EVERY modern pressed record you can buy in the store today, and every pressed record made since the beginning of pressed records was pressed with stampers that started as a lathe cut lacquer master. So, lathe cut means just that. It was cut on a lathe. Like every record ever, except possibly for those that are embossed. Obviously "lathe cut" does not mean mono, or hiss, or surface noise, or rumble, etc. Else every record every bought in the store would be plagued with these issues. That if course is not the case. Heck, they've been cutting stereo lacquers to make stampers to press records since about 1958, so it doesn't even mean mono. When you say your Vinyl Recorder records compare favorably to a quality pressed record, you're comparing them to a record that started out as a lathe cut lacquer! In effect you're saying your lathe cut record sounds just like other lathe cut records!

Depends on what you've got invested in equipment, what your skills can produce, and what your goals are. For me, I have no intention of creating lathe cut records that sound just like a modern pressed record. I can't afford, nor do I have the time to master, the modern machines used to create today's stereo masters. But I do have a variety of lathes on which I can cut a lathe cut record that sounds as good or better than a pressed store bought 78. I also have more basic machines that can cut a decent record without that quality, but are more specifically for "lo fi" work. As for surface noise, that is not necessarily inherent in lathe cut records. After all, there's some surface noise in any record, but it can certainly be minimized.

It seems you are automatically associating "lathe cut" to 1930's - 1940's home recorders. There's a heck of a lot of stuff cut in that era that sounds wonderful. Mono of course. But wonderful.

I've heard some records made on a Vinyl Recorder that sounded pretty awful. Obviously made by someone who maybe didn't have the art of cutting worked out yet.

Don't even start me on the mono vs stereo debate.

To me, lathe cut is not synonymous with crap. Not learning your craft is, however. It's hard to tell the guy sitting at his restored Scully or Neumann that his lathe cuts are crap. They'd run circles around your Vinyl Recorder all day.

Tim in Bovey

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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49015Unread post Tremdall
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:38 am

timinbovey wrote:
However, it can also mean the highest quality possible.
Hi Tim, thanks for your insight. Of course you're right when saying pressed records originate from lathes. But in the awareness of the audience in general there is something like a lathe cut as an end product.

I'm basically mentioning the -in my view (!) (which is open for debate) - terrible quality of a lot of lathe cuts (as end product) because I feel like I need to explain my different approach towards both musicians I contact as a musiclabel and the audience who buys the records.

I agree, some lo fi lathes sound great. I had a few cut for me before when I wasn't yet cutting myself, and, yes, they sounded special. Not at all a reproduction (not even by far) but more like a special artistic version of my original. I could accept that for the moment, but well, as a musician who puts a lot of effort in getting the music sound exactly as how I perceived it, it can be a bit of a disappointment. Especially when nobody says it on forehand... I can understand it when they'd put something on their website that it's not a 1:1 copy (ok, never totally 1:1, but 'as close as technically possible') but an artistic rendition of the original.

I also agree some pressed records sound like shite.

And that a handcut record has the potential of sounding so much better than the average pressed record.

I've had a lot of records pressed (by different pressers in Belgium, France, Chech Republic, Germany, Holland) of different titles in the past and it went from so-so quality to very good. Both from laquers as from dmm. But I often missed 'that' warm colored quality which I personally (mind you, my own colored view!) associate with vinyl. The pressed records mostly sounded professional and correct (of course some times there was a fault in the testpressing and things went back) but always a bit on the safe side. Now that I cut myself I can make the record sound as warm or cold as I like. By having chosen my own equipment carefully. And than again, for some my records will sound too warm. But I like to put something of my own personal view -'how I think a vinyl record should sound'- onto the records I cut. Gives it a more personal touch. So yes, that's a great advantage of lathe cuts! But my records will always be a reproduction and the added color is rather minimal. Just 'enough' in my personal view. Never a totally different piece of music.

So, in resumé; I was especially talking about lathes as an end product (sold record). Not as a lathe for a pressed record.
I feel there are so much lo fi lathe cuts sold that at least I personally associate the term more with lo-fi than with a reproduction.
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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Gridlock
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49018Unread post Gridlock
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:08 am

Yeah stuff your lathe cuts up your ass punks! If I wanna hear some bone-crunching, unsigned, never-WILL-be-signed, acid fuzz garage thrash, I'll listen to it in QUADRAPHONIC VIRGIN VINYL ORIGINAL PRESS 220 GRAM LASER-CUT DIGITALLY REMASTERED AUDIOPHILE ALL ANALOG through a TUBE POWERED STATE OF THE ART VINTAGE MARANTZ/TECHNICS CARBON COPY while consuming a COLD ONE WITH THE BOYS.
WHERE. IT. WAS. BORN!

I swear to god I'm going to start making memes of you guys. Or just draw pictures of you trying to untangle a 50 lb knot of VGA cables.
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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49022Unread post Tremdall
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:21 pm

Haha. Great plan!
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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fredbissnette
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49025Unread post fredbissnette
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:41 pm

duly noted
Instagram @styluspressurerecords

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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49053Unread post piaptk
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:29 am

Oh sorry, Mr Wilson, I'll get off your lawn right away!

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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49058Unread post Tremdall
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:33 am

piaptk wrote:Oh sorry, Mr Wilson, I'll get off your lawn right away!
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Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49073Unread post piaptk
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:44 pm

Your formula operates on the assumption that the only redeeming quality of records is fidelity.

If that were true, then Crosley wouldn't be the largest manufacturer and seller of turntables in the world and Urban Outfitters wouldn't be the largest brick and mortar sales outlet for records. I would say an overwhelming majority of people buying records have a crappy enough setup that they would not be able to glean ANY fidelity benefit out of even a 180g audiophile LP over a cd, and are therefore NOT purchasing records exclusively because of fidelity concerns. Based on anecdotal evidence from the hundreds of people that I know who buy and collect records, far less than 10% have a turntable and speaker/receiver combo that could tell the difference. And those people are all total dorks, like Krisd.

What one may sacrifice in fidelity for an embossed lathe cut (MUCH cheaper than anybody that I've seen with a VR or diamond cutting machine selling their cuts for), they make up with accessibility for ANY band to get their music onto a record and buy them in tiny numbers that require very little investment and at a price point that they can still actually sell the records to their fans for a tiny profit. Lathe cuts also offer unique shapes, formats, and small enough numbers to allow hyper customized packaging. Not to mention the quick turn around time versus a pressed record.

Also, how good a record sounds DEFINITELY depends on how good the cutter and their equipment is, but there have been enormous leaps in the possibilities in the last few years. Thanks to Todd rebuilding heads and Rich making styli, the possibilities have grown exponentially. I DJ my own lathe cuts back to back with 45s and pressed LPs, and as long as I turn the volume up a little, nobody notices the difference. And a large amount of the surface noise problem is actually due to the polycarbonate building up static and attracting dust. We have a VERY low noise floor on our cuts. I own a VR, and rarely use it. Only for LPs, which are admittedly not good for embossed lathe cuts. I don't have to worry about vacuum, heat, noise, etc with embossing, and I can run more than one machine at once and I get close enough to the sound of the master.

If the only reason you care about records is for their fidelity, then yeah, embossed lathe cuts are not for you, and feel free to shell out 3 to 4 times as much money for a higher fidelity cut, or 20 times as much to press a full run of records you have to wait 3-6 months for. But if you enjoy the tangibility, physical beauty, nostalgia, artifact aspect, personal interaction with music, then lathe cuts can help fill in the enormous gap between bands with means to press 500+ copies of a single and bands without.
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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49075Unread post Tremdall
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:32 am

piaptk wrote:Your formula operates on the assumption that the only redeeming quality of records is fidelity.
Hi Piaptk,

I fully agree with your point of view.

I was obviously not very clear about my opinion.
I dó like lo fi A LOT. My music (as a musician) is rather lo fi. I love every aspect of it and I agree also, why should everything be hi-fi?
Would be boring. No, I like the dirt in lo fi and all the mistakes; sort of comforting towards my own mental deficiencies :D

So that's one side of my opinion. I made the statement about lathe=crap because the general public view seems (I can't tell for sure though) to be that lathe cut automatically means lo fi.
I can be very wrong of course. Some people (like me in the past for instance) expect automatically hi fi. And can be dissapointed when hearing the result.
I'd say, when the cutter is happy about making lo fi or hi fi, they maybe can be more specific about it on their respective websites, so people know what they buy...
This is all not really thát important of course. Certainly not expecting anything to change, nor would it even matter. Though I'll continue to inform the people who buy my (own cut) records what they can expect.

I was just wondering if other cutters also (or not) think there is a majority of the public who associate lathe cut more with lo fi than hi fi, or, visa versa.
Once the gargoyle had withdrawn and unlatched his suckers from the topside of Tremdall's agonizing torso, a profound slumber would overtake him, as though from the labor of many days.

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tragwag
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49082Unread post tragwag
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:51 pm

yeah I think you have a point in general, but it's more the assumption that things like surface noise, or MONO are bad.
I think if folks took a second to listen past (usually those two aspects) that the lofi mono cuts can be quite enjoyable.

this is why I still choose to offer the mono cuts on the 6N (I call them LOFI) as well as stereo cuts on the Vinyl Recorders (I call them HIFI)
works great for me, and I can please both demographics.
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
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trailerparkjesus
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49094Unread post trailerparkjesus
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:55 pm

Sam Phillips cut lacquers with prestos in mono... I think the older machines can only be limited by there specs such as freq response, rumble and wow/flutter, which should produce a nice recording with a tuned machine.

The rest falls all on the operator to ruin the record.

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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49104Unread post socialroots
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:08 am

Is it true that the human ears listen to sounds in mono? If its true ,then stereo is just an illusion precieved by our brain? Can someone clearify this for me,as im no expert.
Quality is a subjective view. I have come across many scratched,worn out records that ive bought,just cuz i love the music,and it has never bothered me in anyway,or lost any pleasure cuz of the lack of fidelity. Its all about the music.if the recorded song is crap,arrangement is crap,performance is crap, doesnt matter how good the stereo fidelity is,the record that was cut on the "best" equipment will still ne crap.
You cant polish a turd! All my favorite records were done on equipment that would be considered sub par by todays industry standards, but they made up.for it with creativeity,mastering the art of song writting, mastering instruments & voice,and above all else arrangements. Limitations breeds creativeity. Lathe cut records is a very creative way to put out ones music,to share with other music lovers. People that buy lathe cut records.are usually very proud to own something so limited and rare,love showing it off to their friends as well. Crap lover,thats me!
Maximum respect,
Patrick
P.s just look at how many people from around the world have joined this site,seems like most wanna try to get into crap making. Cant seem to buy a cutting lathe so easy,so they go ahead and try to build their own diy crap quality lathe so they can cut their own crappy record!

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Voxster1965
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49105Unread post Voxster1965
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:56 am

Can't we just all get along :)

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Gridlock
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49111Unread post Gridlock
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:46 pm

You absorb acoustical information from both sides of your head AND resonant points in your body. If you absorbed acoustical information in MONO you wouldn't be able to tell which direction shit is coming from and you would get run over by bicycles every single day. And no Dude, we can't all just get along. My lathe cuts are the absolute of perfection and I will personally karate chop anyone who says otherwise and then run them over with my wife's bicycle. The tires are flat so it will hurt and probably kill you.
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timinbovey
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49112Unread post timinbovey
Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:15 pm

Random thought followup:

As the first responder to the OP, I'm taking this opportunity to follow up.

Honestly, when I read the OP I thought it read like a commercial for the Vinyl Recorder. "Lathe cuts are crap unless they're made on a VR" LOL.

People often talk about the accuracy of reproduction -- to create a recording as close to the original performance as possible.
Then they go about tweaking eg, adding reverb, mixing multiple tracks to create their version of a "stereo image" etc. And what you wind up with is NOTHING like
the original performance. Anything multitracked and mixed can never sound like the original performance. Whether you're using the latest and greatest digital recording device
or a Presto J5 with a crystal mic, NEITHER will sound like the original performance.

To say lathe cut is crap because it's not stereo, or doesn't have the frequency response, etc is like saying black and white photography is crap because it doesn't do it's best to reproduce the
original scene.

For me, stereo is crap. if somethings been recorded multitrack then a stereo mixdown is created, you hear what someone decided it should sound like.
If you record from a spot at a given performance in stereo with two mics, those mics better be about 8-10" apart. Cause that's how your "stereo ears" hear it.
Anything else is not even a close reproduction. This is an interesting discussion:

http://www.anstendig.org/Stereo.html

Lets say you're sitting in a club listening to a band. Is it in stereo? From where you're sitting can you tell where the bass player is, compared to the sax man? Does the drum set
REALLY sound like it's spread across the stage from one side to the other? Does the vocalist really bounce from side to side on the stage answering himself? What if you're sitting off to one side of the stage or the other? If the performance was really stereo you'd not hear the players on the other side of the stage well, if at all. Front of hall mix at a live performance is always in MONO. So everyone in the club or hall hears the entire performance. I don't have time to go on with my entire rant against stereo, but lets just say I can take it or leave it. The idea that's it's necessary somehow is baloney. All the great hits from the beginning of recorded history to the mid to late 70's at least were made hits with MONO 45's and airplay on MONO AM radio stations. Records were always mastered to sound BEST on radio. And it's still true today. Although they use "stereo" they're all mastered to sound BEST and LOUDEST on RADIO.

Just for the sake of discussion (and really, I'm good if you disagree) here is an excerpt from a long post I shared in a group of radio broadcasters (I've been in the radio biz for 44 years, still on the air, and chief engineer for 3 stations, I've got a lot of radio and music background) in response to a guy with a classic rock station who is adamant that everything be in stereo. My reply (part of it) :

"I was also amused by the discussion of “Venus” by Shocking Blue” in that you only want to play the stereo version. That's fine, as long as you realize that there wasn't one. Any stereo version is a modern re-creation making a mono recording into fake stereo by various means. The original hit 45 that sold over a million copies was MONO as was the track on the original LP (some tracks on the original LP were in stereo, Venus was not). I'd be delighted to demonstrate with my original 45 and original LP release. Later releases were issued in fake stereo in an attempt to appease stereo and hifi snobs.

35 years ago I had a good friend who worked at an FM station where he did a big band program, and the station management insisted that everything be in stereo. All his music came from 78's recorded decades before stereo was invented. He had the engineer build him a box that basically created fake stereo from the old mono 78's by splitting various frequencies into left or right, creating a fake and generally horrible stereo sound. He eventually won over the management and got to play them in original mono.

In fact, nearly ALL of the classic rock songs that were also hits (it's a long list – from the Beatles to Steppenwolf and everything in between) were hits because they were played on the radio. MONO AM radio. Rock/Top 40 stations in FM stereo barely existed prior to the mid to late 1970's and even then were few and far between. Studios were specifically mixing and releasing records in mono, and designed specifically to sound as good as possible on mono AM radios with limited frequency response and one speaker. I was a teenager in the 70's, listening to the songs and buying the records. People were listening to and buying mono records. I have well over 40,000 records in my collection. I can pull nearly hit 45 off the shelf and see it was in mono. Of course there were exceptions but they were few and far between.


Lots of people think that radio “promo” 45's from the late 60's and beyond that had a stereo and mono side with the same song on each side was so FM could play the stereo side. Nope. It was to eliminate having a different song or “B” side, to insure the stations would play the song the record label wanted to be the hit, removing any options for the DJ to play the “wrong” side. Read sometime about how Phil Spector started putting complete trash on his “B” sides – including musicians warming up or jamming prior to a session starting, and making up inane titles for the songs – one classic would be “Dr. Kaplan's Office”. This prevented DJ's from playing the “other” side of a record. A double sided hit meant that they lost sales, as selling two separate records would move more discs, and having the DJ's make the “flip” side a hit would often put a song that the studio didn't own the publishing right to on the charts, making money for their label but also making money for a different publishing company, rather than being able to double dip with record sales AND publishing rights if the “right” song became the hit. Note how how Spector owned the publishing rights to the fluff songs he put on the “B” sides, so when the “A” side became a hit he also got publishing rights money for the filler song on the flip side that also sold a million as a “B” side. But I digress.

Yes, people were buying stereo albums as well. But not the majority of people. But the songs became hits, and sold millions of mono 45's.

You want to talk about teaching the youth of America about real music, teach them about everything recorded before about 1958. Back when music was recorded by live musicians all playing together in a studio, and recording as a BAND. Once multi-track recording became standard most music stopped being real. It's all assembled, track by track, piece by piece, removing any chance of actual human interaction in the music. Especially more so since computers. Not only is it all “built” mostly without anyone playing actual instruments, but it's the computer guys and engineers who build it all. Most of your treasured classic rock songs were built, not performed. Hell, even I could play classic rock guitar riffs on an album if you gave me 6 weeks to do it over and over and over on one track until I got it right.

When you listen to a great stereo classic album by many of the classic rock acts you're not hearing a stereo representation of music, you're hearing an engineers concept of where the sounds should be, or the neato special effects the band, artist or producer thought would be “cool”. Anything the Beatles did after '65, anything Frank Zappa ever did, all relied on studio tricks. Not to say they weren't all valid musicians, but they let the technology get in the way of their musical abilities. The first Beatles albums were cut in hours, live in the studio. The later albums were done in months, using hundreds of hours of studio time, and built, not played. Phooey. Maybe you think built music full of special effects, wild channel panning, and other effects are great, and that's fine. But don't try to pass it off as a real performance. Real music can be performed by a group of people playing live together. Not with the bass player sequenced on a computer and the singer on an autotune.

The biggest thing to screw up music was the implication of the scam called stereo. When you listen to a classic rock album, and the drum set is panned across the stereo spectrum, where the drummer works the drums set from one side to the other, and the sound goes from one speaker across to the other, what the hell is that? When the ride cymbal is in the left channel, and the high hat is in the right, and the toms are split between the sides, what the hell is that? No one has ever attended a performance where the drumset was spread across the stage from one side to the other. Hell, even the drummer, sitting at the drums playing doesn't hear the drums pan from one side to the other. When you go to a live concert, and the band is on stage, left to right bass, rhythm, vocal, lead, keyboard, percussionist, with the drummer in the back do you think they set up the PA system so the bass and rhythm players audio comes out the speaker stack on the left side of the stage, and the lead, keys and conga player are on the right side speakers with the lead vocal mixed in the center? Hell no. If they did that people in the live show would only hear the music on their side of the venue. The left side hall people would never head the lead guitar solos on the right hand speakers! Live shows are mixed mono. Some may try some surround sound BS, but front of hall PA is mixed mono. For most general listening music should be mixed mono.

Unless you're a hardcore stereo fan who sets up a good system and finds the perfect hot spot to sit where you can hear the stereo balance and mix perfectly. Then you hear everything, and you hear the fake positioning of the individual instruments as someone decided they should be. But remember, in real life, unless you're standing at the front of the stage you have no real spatial reference as to where the sound is coming from, and listening to your stereo system you don't either, unless you're standing in the front of the “stage” created by your system. The difference is the recorded sound rarely replicates real life, ESPECIALLY in classic rock. With classical music, or jazz, they tend to leave the mix alone and just use the stereo effect for some depth. This is rarely the case with classic rock.

The second you move away from that hot spot center position, you're not hearing all the music. And you're certainly not hearing stereo sound. It's only “valid” when you're in the right spot.

When you're listening to stereo and the singer pans from left to right, are you to believe he's on stage blipping from left to right and back while he's singing? That the guitar player is somehow panning himself from side to side? Even if you're at a live show and the guitar player is moving about the stage from left to right, his AMP is staying put.

Who wants to hear classic rock in stereo in their car? The balance is way screwed up because of your position to the speakers. What if the lead guitar is on the right and you're driving and your wife has her leg in front of the speaker on her side? It's all just gimmick mixing tricks BS. Switch the radio to mono, turn it up, and hear EVERYTHING.

Classic rock owes it's hits and success to songs played on mono AM radio. Damn near all classic rock hits were mixed to sound their best in mono. Even the Beatles were mixed for mono radio and record player purposes and the stereo work was done much later.

I know you can give me a never ending list of non-hit classic rock band tracks, believe me, I've got all the albums. And they're in stereo. But it's stupid, un-necessary stereo.

The one big advantage FM has over AM is the greatly expanded frequency response. What we used to call “high fidelity” LOL.

Yes, there were a LOT of classic rock bands who depended on stereo effects. Pink Floyd, Yes, Emerson, Lake and Palmer and many more come to mind. But they were relying on the studio tricks more as a creative gimmick than actual music. And their concerts were in MONO. I know because I was there.

Listen to any of the original records of people like Buddy Holly, Bill Haley and the Comets, the Early Elvis sides, Chuck Berry on early Chess discs, etc. Not only where they all MONO but they were recorded on ONE track, LIVE where the music was mixed LIVE to the single tape track as it happened. Where the skill of the man at the controls was as vital as the skill of the musicians. THAT, ladies and gentlemen is real music, played by musicians, playing together. Not relying on someone else to put it all together and make it sound good after they've gone home.

I've been collecting records for 57 years. I've been involved in the music business, live music, and radio both AM and FM for 44 years. Obviously I can't say that I'm right, as music and the enjoyment thereof is completely in the ears of the listener, and everyone has different tastes. However, I believe that the need for stereo is about as much brainwashing as the belief that todays hits are “music”."

I do get that if you're offering lofi lathe cuts you should make darn sure any customer or client is aware of what you make. They should be able to listen to some samples first.
But to simply dis miss them as crap is wrong.

Tim in Bovey

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Gridlock
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49113Unread post Gridlock
Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:29 pm

". Obviously I can't say that I'm right, as music and the enjoyment thereof is completely in the ears of the listener, and everyone has different tastes."

Yes, you can say that you're right. That was a fantastic rant. I would love to read the whole thing, if you have a link or something
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Tremdall
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49117Unread post Tremdall
Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:27 am

timinbovey wrote:Random thought followup:

As the first responder to the OP, I'm taking this opportunity to follow up.
Honestly, when I read the OP I thought it read like a commercial for the Vinyl Recorder. "Lathe cuts are crap unless they're made on a VR" LOL.
Hah :D Perhaps. But it's more your projection...
timinbovey wrote:People often talk about the accuracy of reproduction -- to create a recording as close to the original performance as possible.
Then they go about tweaking eg, adding reverb, mixing multiple tracks to create their version of a "stereo image" etc. And what you wind up with is NOTHING like
the original performance.
I've never heard of people adding reverb when they're trying to reproduce... Must have been quite some reverberant offspring.
But on fact; reproduction is very simple. And should of course not be what you portrait here...
timinbovey wrote:Anything multitracked and mixed can never sound like the original performance. Whether you're using the latest and greatest digital recording device
or a Presto J5 with a crystal mic, NEITHER will sound like the original performance.
I believe you mix some things here.. The original performance is simply that what the musician offers me to cut for him. Either multitracked or whatever. The musician gives me a piece of music and I cut it. That simple.
timinbovey wrote:To say lathe cut is crap because it's not stereo, or doesn't have the frequency response, etc is like saying black and white photography is crap because it doesn't do it's best to reproduce the
original scene.
Again, two different things here;
-reproduction
-another version of the original

When you say you'll make a reproduction of a colored photograph and you reproduce it as b/w , something goes wrong...

I personally find it rather respectless to make a bad reproduction of a musicpiece. The artist has put a lot of effort in it to get exactly thát result and you just make a 'black and white picture' of it...

It will be better if the cutter mentions on forehand if he's making lo fi or hi fi. So everyone knows what to expect.
timinbovey wrote:Yes, there were a LOT of classic rock bands who depended on stereo effects. Pink Floyd, Yes, Emerson, Lake and Palmer and many more come to mind. But they were relying on the studio tricks more as a creative gimmick than actual music. And their concerts were in MONO. I know because I was there.
Hmm. So you are going to tell what's music and what's not? It's such an outdated discussion really...
And concerts are per definition stereo when you have two ears.
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socialroots
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49118Unread post socialroots
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:12 am

http://www.anstendig.org/Stereo.html, this paper is an interesting read.thanks for the link Timinbovey

Maximum respect,
Patrick

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Radardoug
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Re: Lathe Cut = synonymous with Crap

Post: # 49121Unread post Radardoug
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:06 pm

Timinbovey, you are very wrong in one respect. When you attend a live show, it is in STEREO! The perspective will be different for every person in the audience, but it is definitely stereo. We have two ears, and they give us the ability to hear a stereo soundfield. We can also localise sounds in that field. Doesn't matter if there is a p.a. or not. Classical musicians generally dont have a p.a. Go to an orchestra show sometime, and tell me you cant hear from different places. Or are you completely deaf in one ear?

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