Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

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mossboss
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Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 18747Unread post mossboss
Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:13 pm

Here are some answers to the often asked question
"I want to Press records What do I need? "

To all aspiring to do that be aware that there are no New presses available and none have been made since 1982 or so
So all presses of whatever brand will be well used and dating from back then if not very much earlier

Presses were mainly made by SMT Hamilton Lened Fabel TCS TTT and Alpha Toolex Other brands where made as well as the EMI 1400 which was an in house effort sold to no one else However other presses where made in various countries no doubt but they are less known

Ok Here we go for a typical Apha Toolex press installation:

You would need about 60-100 square meters of space with a bit of open space for the cooling tower as well as natural or bottled gas for the steam boiler
You would also need around the 60-100 amps of 3 phase power supply to the premises
A steam Boiler a water cooling system Piping to the presses for both steam and water as well as Compressed Air pressure and vacuum lines would be required as well as the wiring of all the equipment to power
Each machine takes about 10KW for heating and extruder drive motor
Also the ancillary power requirements for the various controls and other services

The machines require the following services in the following capacities on a per cycle basis, not per minute
Since these machines have a cycle of around 18-30 seconds you need triple these capacities per minute :

1. Steam at 1.5 KG per record delivered at 150 PSI For these two presses around the 500 KG of steam per hour boiler would be about right
2. 22 litres of cooling water per record at ambient or about 20 odd degrees C A cooling tower with a 1.5 m x 1.5 m base and about 8 feet in height would be about right

3. 18 CFM of compressed air at 120 PSIHydraulics

4. Hydraulic oil consumption is at 4.4 litres per cycle at 1000 psi for low pressure
Another circuit is needed at 1.5 litres per cycle at 2850 PSI for high pressure
The above are requirements for a 12" machine
For the 7" the requirements are 2/3rds of above
This means a decent hydraulic pack of around 7.5-10 KW with high and low pressure pumps
The control system installed on the press requires two pressure supplies one at 1000psi the other at 2850 psi
The above requirements are on a per record produced

5. Vacuum at 30 CFM The 12" machine provided with the above services can achieve a full cycle of around the 28 seconds per 130 gram x 12" record two records a minute or 120 per hour
Heavier records would reduce cycle time accordingly at 145 Grams there is an increase of the cooling cycle by 3 seconds and at 180 Grams another 4 seconds
The 7" machine will have a cycle of 17-18 seconds for standard 40-45 gram records 3 records per minute or 180 per hour
Cycle times are dependant on all services being available to the presses as above but not to the limits as there are fluctuations
A 30% extra capacity is required so as to assure availability of services at all times

Assuming that one would want to produce the 3 weights of records demanded today

1. Standard 120-130 Grams
2. 145-150 grams
3. 180 gram 12" record
On a 12" press it means that you need to allow for 3 sets of moulds
These cost is about the $4,500 per set of two moulds
There are 3 sources of supply in the Europe and 1 in the USA
One standard set of moulds is recommended as a spare set is kept on the shelf If you were to damage one you are out of production
Besides the spare set than you take whatever other weight record you wish to produce

Moulds are considered a consumable item with a limited life
Without any mishaps like a piece of metal finding its way into the moulds and ruining them they would have a life from about 400K-1 million records
The moulds do wear on the faces so a re profile is required at about 200-300K records pressed
Moulds can be re profiled up to 3 times before they become to thin to use successfully
If they require re profiling after the 3rd time they are finished
The limiting factor on mould life is the water used for cooling
Assuming it is pure and clean as well as treated with the right chemicals one can expect the maximum life.
If very dirty with a lot of minerals as well as calcium in the cooling water the lower life limit would apply
Other items required

Pressing Plant

A granulator which would have enough "Throat" to take a 12" record so rejects as well as the flash produced can be recycled
A Centre punch so as to punch out the labels from rejected records
Assuming that the records are to be sleeved and packed in house the necessary tables benches would have to be allowed for
Some pallet racking for the storage of sleeves inner bags packing cartons as well as raw PVC material would be required
A small fork lift rated at 1.5 tonne would be an advantage or for every PVC delivery one would sweat out shifting 40 x 25 KG from the truck to the store or the palettes of packed records to go out

In the above typical two press set-up no account is taken for electrofoming facilities
So metal work will have to be obtained from outside so some auxiliary equipment are required within the plant unless of course the stampers are provided centred and formed which has advantages as well as disadvantages

1. A circle cutter so as to trim metal work from the plating plant
2. A centering machine so as to centre and punch out the hole in the centre of the stamper
3. A forming press or tool so as to form the centre as well as the perimeter of the stampers
The above will certainly allow one to set-up a pressing plant from scratch

Now
I will not put any costs on any equipment However there will be little change out of around the $130-150 K for the above

Its up to any one out there to add costs to the above equipment and requirements on the list bellow so as to get a budget
This needs to be a separate exercise as items vary from place to place
Prices are of course variable given that supply and demand varies
The list can only be a mixture of used as well as new equipment since no new presses have been made since 1982 odd
Just by the way A new AD12 Alpha Toolex press new back in 1980 was priced at $74,000,00 excluding hydraulics

Equipment

1. 12" Record Press $----------
2. 7" Record press $-----------
3.Steam Boiler $ ----------
4. Cooling tower $-----------
5. Hydraulic System $-----------
6. Air Compressor $-----------
7. Vacuum Pump $-----------
8. Granulator $------------
9. Centering machine $------------
10.Forming press $------------
11.Circle Cutter $------------
12.Miscellaneous items $------------
13. 4 sets of moulds $------------
14. Hydraulic Oil $-----------
15. Boiler chemicals $------------
16. Chiller Chemicals $-----------
17.Boiler & Cooling tower dosing gear $-------------

Installation Costs

1. Electrical $-------------
2. Steam and water $-------------
3. Hydraulic connections $------------
4.Delivery and placement of Gear $------------
5.Boiler installation Gas Oil, Bottled $------------
6.Boiler & Cooling tower dosing gear $------------

Now here what else would be essential for a start up

1. PVC compound 2 tonne black
2. Spare pins and bushes
3. Stock of inner sleeves
4. Coloured PVC Compound

One should seriously consider allowing for 2-3 months rent as that is what it will take to start up after all the main gear is secured
Any security deposits for the energy suppliers as well as sufficient working capital so as to cover at least 1 months production after starting

No doubt there are few bits and pieces missing from this list Any discrepancies please advise so we can add them
Hard to remember everything
Steve E
Best you put this up as a Sticky
It will save repetitive posts on the subject
Cheers
Chris

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dietrich10
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Post: # 18766Unread post dietrich10
Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:49 am

Thanks for the Chris. All in the info in one post that a few years ago took me 6 months to figure out and still not as thorough as this
cutting lacquers-vms70 system

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Angus McCarthy
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Post: # 18769Unread post Angus McCarthy
Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:35 am

Thank you for the excellent summary, Mossy.

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Steve E.
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Post: # 19372Unread post Steve E.
Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:54 pm

StickyWorthy says I.

Ha! I stickied it even before I noticed the request to "sticky." :D

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montalbano
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Post: # 20059Unread post montalbano
Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:58 pm

It's the "Wikipedia" of the Toolex record pressing.
Just some extra info:
- in the list of needed equipment, I would add the steam traps - expensive - and also a tub where the extra condensate is going if the tank is full. I mean, if the tub near the boiler is for any reason full, the extra condensate must go somewhere. We have an extra tub with an exhaust valve controlled by temp, the valve opens and everything goes to drain in the city's rain collecting pipes when the temp is < 40°C. The drain is nothing but the city's rain collecting pipes, these pipes are made of bad PVC, and it cooks at 60C, this is the reason for the temp control of the exhaust valve
- a 200-220 Kg/h will serve one 12" press without issues, but mind the size of the pipes and the speed of the burner. These variables are connected because the bigger the pipes are, the more accumulation you will have, and the faster the burner is, the faster the pipes will be full of steam at proper pressure ready to be supplied to the press when the valve opens.
- if you set up an installation with multiple presses, you have to put a non return valve in the condensate line, so that the condensate goes one way back to the boiler's tank
- to keep a constant quality of the product you will need either a modulating burner (expensive) or an auto pressure reducing valve (expensive but excellent in my view), both working to minimize the steam pressure variations, which with a mid-small boiler will be significant
- hydraulics: accumulator is fundamental for 12"s on the low pressure circuit, recommended, but not fundamental in the high pressure system. 7"s you can work with a midsize pump, most of machines go mono pressure

Hope this can somehow complete Mossy's post
Phil from Phono Press, Milan, Italy
http://www.phonopress.it

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mossboss
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Post: # 20065Unread post mossboss
Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:36 am

Thanks for the input great
The list I compiled is certainly not exhaustive as there is a whole Host of other, considered minor items certainly missing from it
If any one was to compile an exact and complete list of what is needed It would certainly be a major task indeed
There are 3 Isolating valves needed per press one for steam one for condensate these are to be rated at 200 psi and at 200 C as standard ball valves last about 5 minutes
There is also another required at 200 psi but at ambient temperature for cooling water
A large 2" valve rated at 1500 psi for for the return hydraulic line and another high pressure 3/4" in size rated at 3500 psi
A power isolating switch on each machine as well as further protection like a circuit breaker rated at 20 KW
Steam trap is certainly required on the supply side of the boiler at 2"
A pressure relief valve for the cooling pump circuit rated at 200 psi and set at 150 psi is a necessity
A thermostatic controlled valve for the cooler on the hydraulic system plus supply and return water lines including isolating valves
I almost forgot about that post as it did not seem to arouse a lot of interest
So since someone decided to add to the list it seems that there is a bit of interest so here is some more items
The above can certainly be part of the list which can certainly be put together to complete the picture
So guys in you come with some more please
Cheers
Chris

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 34043Unread post mossboss
Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:39 am

Hi All
It has been a long time since the topic of start up cost was posted
It was about right at the time
Since than we had a demand exceeding pressing capacity situation which has resulted in great demand
It appears that the cost of presses has gone up 3-4 times with presses changing hands around the $40-50 K mark
All other items seem to be about right
So do take into account the current market for presses if you are going to do your numbers
Cheers
Chris

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Igor
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 36051Unread post Igor
Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:58 am

Very usefull, thank you!!

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untitledthe
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38324Unread post untitledthe
Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:01 am

Throughout my investigaction i noticed every single plant i saw footage from have actual dedicated presses to mold the stamper and cut labels.
In case of a setup with manuel record press, why does no one use the press to cut the labels for instances?
Saves you costs of 2 machines, never see this, bad idea? why not possible?

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38386Unread post mossboss
Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:35 am

That's a novice comment if I ever heard one. Obviously you have never spend a day in a pressing shop ok you are Asking
Here how it will pan out
It goes like this, you spend a couple of hours to pull your moulds out than place the forming tools to form the stamper for the day or two, put it all back again than start pressing?
Repeat the process again a day or two or even a week later.
Also to cut the labels as well? Not a good idea impractical and costly.
Presses must run pressing records than you have your auxiliary gear to make sure that happens
Don't even think about it that's of course if you are in the business of pressing records and not a hobby.
Cheers
Chris

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untitledthe
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38388Unread post untitledthe
Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:05 am

OK unproffesional :) Bookmolds would slide out of the way, bypass the machine and throw in a sandwich of forms and stamper.
But i get it, im thinking to easy. Thanks for the answer anyway Mossboss.

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38397Unread post mossboss
Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:14 am

There's is no magic hand that pushes these moulds out
There is a hydraulic cylinder mounted at the rear so an extended rod that has pushed them out of the press Stays there till the next cycle
It will be between the platens, besides a bunch of hoses
Not practical my good man
Best
Chris

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chinaski
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38756Unread post chinaski
Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:27 am

Hello everyone,


total newbie here at posting, reading a lot about all those precious informations for a while now .
Apologize in advance if I'm doing wrong, and may be for the "direct tone" of my questions.

I'm currently working on opening a new small pressing plant(2 presses) with a friend in Europe, I'd say we're at 50% of the project right now, and I've got a few questions about all what's listed above(the topic seemed appropriate to me) .

About the stamper finishing equipment, specifically about the centering punch machine, is an optical centering machine now necessarily required? Is there any alternative? Our plan seems really expensive...
Same question about the trimming machine, what are the options?

Sorry if the answers seem obvious for probably most of you, we still have a lot learn.

Thanks for reading.

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38757Unread post mossboss
Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:49 pm

Well Welcome to the Vinyl Truth
I sincerely hope you have deep pockets
Are you starting with these two semi auto Hamiltons?
Sorry no alternative to the centering machine
Back sander is easy enough to make or get made
Forming tools for stampers?
Sure
You can get a TTT press with 12" and 7" formers mounted on them forms both outside and inside
If you cannot find one than copy it around the 20-30K euros
alternative a 20 tonne garage press and get some forming tools around the 5-8 K all up
Any way Why are you wanting stamper forming equipment?
Are you setting up galvanic plant as well?
If not whoever makes your stampers should be able to form them for you
Arghhhh forgot!!! Welcome
Also what you are calling yourselves? and your location please? It will be nice to know so we can add you to our list here
Best
Chris

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38758Unread post mossboss
Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:24 pm

Forgot
If you cannot find a siebert record centering machine, You can buy one made a CD, same way but a much smaller centering machine, modify it to suit, they ask around the 10-15K used, add another 5-6K for modifications
New they are around the 65K mark
Easy stuff pressing records!
By the way, if you want to make some 78 Shellac records I have a client for you, member here
Best
Chris

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chinaski
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38760Unread post chinaski
Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:54 pm

Hello mossboss, thanks a lot for your reply.

We're located in France.
We have deep pockets full of nothingness, talking about money. But the project seems interesting for most of the business "actors" we talked with, now let's see what the banks will say considering we might have some help, on the financial plan. So when I say 50%, I speak of the theorical approach of it, clearly.
About the presses, Newbilt seemed good for us.
We won't set up a galvanic plant ourselves, this is obviously more than a full time job on its own that we absolutely don't know, we'll have probably enough work learning to do well our thing at the start.
The problem is that the only galvanic plant we know, is currently not able to form the stampers.
Of course, any advice or other option is more than welcome.

*edit*
Thanks for the info about the centering machine.

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38788Unread post mossboss
Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:39 am

Good luck. You have yet to find the vinyl truth
You are at the nice stage now
It's called.the dreaming phase.
Business plans cashflows market research the banks the vulture capitalist, sorry venture capital people so on so on
No problem it's all good keep at it its part of the process
Let us know how you get on and dont hesitate to ask
Best
Chris

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chinaski
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38789Unread post chinaski
Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:11 am

Haha, the dreaming phase, sure we're probably at it right now.
Anyway, thank you. I will update things here if this turns well.

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untitledthe
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38795Unread post untitledthe
Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:39 am

If the galvanic plant is the one i think it is, it would be a great investment for them to get the stamper finishing machines.
New plants are popping up everywhere with big demand for stampers. Business!
Would deffo be a good development for European pressings community if done right.
Small plants join forces with the galvanic plant and make it happen together in the end everybody happy and lived happily ever after haha.

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mossboss
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Re: Record Pressing Plant Start up Costs

Post: # 38796Unread post mossboss
Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:09 am

Sure Thing Titled or other wise
The latest quote for an 18 Cell galvanic plant with wet benches and silvering booth etc was 462,900 euro
Add the following:
Installation
Floor preparation
De Ionised water plant
Ventilation
Air scrubber
Waste water treatment system
Peripheral equipment
As a guess another 200,000 euro
Than
Add materials,
2 tonne of nickel Metal
Around the 10,000 Liters of nickel Sulfamate
Other associated chemicals and supplies
All up an investment of a a lazy 1 Million Euro
Need to have a lot of small plants to band together mate
Unless of course you have a very rich uncle or something like that
Best
Chris

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