What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

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drumnbum
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What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35708Unread post drumnbum
Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:08 am

Just wondering if anyone has ever sprayed an acetate a second time. Let's say the first time didn't work for whatever reason. What effect would "doing it all again" have on the overall quality down the line?

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leethal
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35714Unread post leethal
Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:27 am

I'm just guessing here, and generating some conversation, but Chris has mentioned that Ammonia and Hydrogen Peroxide is required for removal of bad silvering. Which leads me to believe that a 2nd crack of the whip is common place amongst the titans of industry....again, I'm just thinking out loud here

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mossboss
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35725Unread post mossboss
Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:36 am

drumnbum wrote:Just wondering if anyone has ever sprayed an acetate a second time. Let's say the first time didn't work for whatever reason. What effect would "doing it all again" have on the overall quality down the line?
Nothing!!! Silvering is known for its unreliability, stripping it off, than start over is not uncommon
Cheers
Chris

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Greg Reierson
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35727Unread post Greg Reierson
Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:32 pm

Follow-up question: Once silvering is done, what typically happens to the lacquer? Is it archived or tossed in a pile?
Greg Reierson
http://www.RareFormMastering.com
VMS70 :: SAL74B :: SX74

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35737Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:16 am

As detailed above, a just-silvered lacquer can be stripped of silver and re-sprayed.

A processed lacquer (silvered and plated) typically produces surface noise if it is silvered and plated a second time.

Fabeldis patented a process where the silver remains on the lacquer after plating and this serves as the mother for making as many direct stampers as required. How successful this was and whether or not this process was put into production in their plants, is unknown.

Processed lacquers are usually used as spacers in a stack of records as they come off the presses. The lacquer coated aluminium (US: "aluminum") disc acts as a heat sink and helps to keep the records flat. A spacer is usually placed on the stack after each fifth record.

After processing, we would play the lacquer to check the cut and get an idea of how the test pressing will sound. This convenience is not available if your plating is done elsewhere.

Excess lacquer discs are sold for scrap metal. Back in the day, local cutting studios would send reject cuts back to Transco for recycling the aluminum disc which would get you a credit on your next purchase. On a visit to Transco (before their acquisition by Apollo) we saw these discs being dipped into a tub of boiling hot water so that the lacquer could be peeled off. The blank disc would then be re-coated with lacquer and sold.

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mossboss
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35760Unread post mossboss
Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:31 am

Hi all
Once silvering is done it is normal for a lacquer to be plated up!!! He He
Once the first negative is taken off, the lacquer may or may not have any silver left on its face, quite normal
Assuming you want to play it back the lacquer is than stripped off, regardless if any visible silver remains on it or not
After that, in some plants they are kept for reference until the records are produced, if there are issues like pops and clicks or surface noise, the first stop is the lacquer, than the metal work, than the press, until the cause has been established, after they are used for spacers or scrapped, as pointed out in the last post
By the way, returned lacquers to Transco where never sold as master lacquers but as 14" dubs or "recycled masters" for any one wanted to save a few bucks
They already have a hole in the center which builds up a ring around the hole making almost unsuitable for masters
All master lacquers have their center holes punched after the lacquer is applied, usually at the very last stage after inspection just prior to packing
If the lacquer is rejected it is not punched but re cycled definitely without the center hole punched out
cheers
Chris

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drumnbum
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35762Unread post drumnbum
Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:31 am

Thanks for the answers. Specifically, I had been wondering about the acetate being resprayed/resilvered after it has been used for making metal parts, and whether that is a good practice.
For example: metal parts are made, there are issues that are discovered on the metal part(s), and the only alternative is to either have a new acetate cut or to reuse the first one (assuming you haven't played the acetate).
What, if any effects would this have on the end product? AussieOzborn mentioned an increase in surface noise. Any other issues with this? Or is it best to just chalk it up to experience and a lesson learned and pay for a new acetate.

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mossboss
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 35783Unread post mossboss
Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:47 pm

This is a very strange question
If you made a bad negative in the first place what makes you think you get a good one the second time around?
The lacquer is most likely damaged with bits been pulled off it when separation takes place with a perfect negative on the first process
The likely hood of getting another good negative out of a perfect lacquer that has already produced a a good negative is so remote that you should not even think about it, let alone one that has produced a negative with issues
It is the state of the industry with cost cutting that a mother is not produced from the first negative than treated as it should be to produce a perfectly sounding positive from where one can get a perfect stamper
Bad practice, unprofessional, amateurs may do it but not any self respecting plant
Just not worth the head-fucks
Cheers
Chris

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 43796Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:56 am

mossboss wrote:
By the way, returned lacquers to Transco where never sold as master lacquers but as 14" dubs or "recycled masters" for any one wanted to save a few bucks
A good hypotheses. I dont make this this stuff up. This is what the owner of Transco told me when I visited the Transco plant in the heyday of vinyl when the factory was at its peak.

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montalbano
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 43866Unread post montalbano
Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:13 pm

Re-silvering is not uncommon at all, as Mossy says.
Who says that you cannot play back the lacquer? If you do it carefully, with a good stylus and not too much weight on it, then it will not be damaged at all.
Sure, you maybe cannot do this 10 times, but it's not a given.
There is a significant difference, however, among different situations which may happen.
One thing is to re-silver a lacquer which has NOT been plated yet. In this case, you simply strip chemically the silver off, and if you do the job carefully, then you can be almost 100% sure that your lacquer will be exactly how it was when you had cut it. Unless you damage it during the degreasing process or when you sensitize it with the stannous chloride. Its "shiny" look might be a little bit compromised after the 1st silvering, but the overall quality of the sound and the lack of clicks and pops will be, most likely, kept safe.
Another thing is when you - for any reason - have to resilver a lacquer after the pre-plating process. I might say after the plating process, when the negative is formed, but what matters in this case is the pre-plating process, because it is the process which electroforms the nickel foil over the silver film. In this case, if something goes wrong, you have to peel the nickel foil off the lacquer, and the lacquer might be damaged by this process. This is not a given, however, but in this case there is a much higher risk of damaging tiny parts of the lacquer.
The "judge" is - also in this case - always the playback of the lacquer. That's why I think that it doesn't make sense to assume that a lacquer cannot be played back "by default". Why? To play back a lacquer, even if silvered or plated, is always very helpful, and in most cases it can help you to recognize where the problem is. Especially when you compare it with the nickel mother.
I happened to resilver lacquers after having got problems with faulty negatives with tiny holes, and audible clicks, and in this case the problem was not on the lacquer, which was still good.
Many tiny defects on the record might even result on how the negatives and/or stampers were formed. And in this case, too, lacquers are not relevant. Typical example: if you do a bad welding to the brass ring on the back of the mother, with just a few spots touching the shaft, and then plate the stamper at a high amperage, you let a lot of current go through tiny passages, with the result of overheating them, and releasing hydrogen onto the sulfamate solution. Which will most likely cause tiny "bubbles" and tiny holes on the stamper.
But this thing could go on and on ... many people are looking for perfection, they want testpressings to judge the lack of clicks and pops, but they don't know that testpressings are normally pressed from cold ... this thing might vary a little from Alpha Toolexs to Leneds, but unless you press 30-40 records before, testpressings are significant only to check the correct order of the tracks, the overall sound, and that's it. What is important for the click and pops is the nickel mother. There are a lof of testpressings from the 80's-90's available on the market, stuff for collectors, and they always sound worse than the official release. There must be a reason or not for that?
At Philips, here in Italy, back in the days, when the average runs were 20.000 or more, the QC was done like this: there was one person listening to the whole record after a little less than 100 records were pressed. If the record was OK, then there was another person who was listening to one record every 20-30, in the points which were considered "critical" (the most silent points, etc.). Just to be sure that no major issues were occurring to the stampers for any reason, and that the steam pressure was steady enough to guarantee a steady output.
The quality of records is not just depending on the quality of the cutting and plating. A 50% is given by the pressing, and this 50% is also strongly influenced by a steady thermical environment. The more you press, the better it will sound. Or, to better say it, the closer it will be to its nickel mother.
We have anyway covered this subject a lot of other times in this forum. There is not much to say. I just wanted to point some things out.
Phil from Phono Press, Milan, Italy
http://www.phonopress.it

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mossboss
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Re: What would happen if you respray/resilver an acetate?

Post: # 43876Unread post mossboss
Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:30 am

Very good. Thank you.
Chris

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