Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 38572Unread post Aussie0zborn
Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:35 pm

That's a lot of progress in just eight weeks or so - looking good indeed.

The extruder looks like it has an air cylinder under the cake maker to push the vinyl cake out to the operator. Neat idea.

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untitledthe
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 38980Unread post untitledthe
Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:40 am

Posted this allready on the forum but is pretty relevant in this topic to;

Newbilt USA story;

http://www.plasticsnews.com/article/20151204/NEWS/151209890/first-new-vinyl-record-presses-hit-the-market-after-a-30-year-break

Seems they got a great start.

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kasimyr
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39407Unread post kasimyr
Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:25 pm

I visit them last week to have a look at the company and the presses.
They still couldn't show the pressing of a record, cause of the lack of steam and cooling.
They showed me a set up duplex system (two presses, one extruder) and as I asked which number
they have, the answer from them was "this is number one and this is number two, the prototypes are
standing over there".

I wonder if some one here has ordered from Newbilt jet, or has plans to do.

Here two snapshots
IMG_1287.jpg
IMG_1289.jpg
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leo gonzalez
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39409Unread post leo gonzalez
Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:11 pm

are those wahsers on the post nuts?

first time i see those on any press.




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untitledthe
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39416Unread post untitledthe
Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:18 pm

kasimyr wrote:
Here two snapshots
Thanks for sharing these photo's with us kasimyr, looks good.
At the looks of it these seem pretty much finished, would be nice to see them in action.

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cuttinglover
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39511Unread post cuttinglover
Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:14 pm

I been in contact with them for more than a year ago , they give me lot of information , but i was confused by the steam plant drawing .
Chris checked them in a discussion about a steam boiler a few month's ago with me. And i did also some resource . The conclusion was the drawing is not correct . I want to be 100% shure that the presses are working . If they do i will spent the money . you can only sell a good product if you have make the full cyclus of pressing.
Now i have to many questions .

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39515Unread post leo gonzalez
Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:08 pm

press looks nice but i have doubts too. washers with nuts? steam running on hydraulic fittings, hoses undersized...


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montalbano
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39575Unread post montalbano
Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:28 pm

This "Newbilt thing" is gaining a lot of interest also on some Italy's music magazines: "with these machines, the usual delays for manufacturing vinyl records will be definitely solved". I wanted to post a reply to the article, but it wasn't worth.

Apart from the fact that this is a false statement, simply because you can buy 10 new presses, but if you are not supplied with the stampers by the plating shop, you will spend your days with the machines sitting idle (the real "bottleneck" is in the electroplating, as correctly stated by an article published by a German magazine I cannot recall at the moment), I wonder how a company somehow connected with a pretty respectable company like R.P.A. USA can pre-sell those presses without having tested real records coming out from them.

What about the clamping rings? What about the pneumatic behaviour of the centerpins? To press picturediscs, for example, the way the centerpins work is crucial.
Record pressers will certainly know that to test the clamping rings, you have to press many records. And I could add a lot of other potential issues: non-fill on grooves, stitching, ram rising speed, spring return of the press ... a lot of things, which can be tested only on the FINAL product, done with steam and water. I am talking about issues we used to experience everyday on manual presses. Working presses. Now we run only with auto Alphas, and we're happy with that.

No steam and water installation? To test a press, it would take a simple 100Kg/H boiler, with burner driven by fuel. A simple water pump, a water softener, and no cooling tower either (if you test just some records, it is not necessary). It's maybe a 10K investement in front of the 100K they ask for one press.
Phil from Phono Press, Milan, Italy
http://www.phonopress.it

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montalbano
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39576Unread post montalbano
Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:16 pm

...and there is one more thing. If you look at the videos they posted on the website, the extruder does the puck without hole, in the Alpha Toolex way. Now, Alpha Toolex presses self-center the puck and make the final hole of the record with the combined action of the upper and lower centerpin. On a manual press, this makes no sense. Because the operator will have to center the puck visually, without any reference. With the result of a lot of possible rejects. Manual presses must be supplied by a cake with inner hole. Here we had the TCS, with modified Alpha extruders making cakes with the centerhole, but even in Germany for example, there were the Werner-Pfleiderer presses, supplied by the TTT-Disk-O-Mat extruders, which did the puck with the centerhole. There are plenty of Youtube videos showing that.
Phil from Phono Press, Milan, Italy
http://www.phonopress.it

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39578Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:30 pm

Phil, you make some good points. Not having a steam boiler to press records for demonstration is a bit lame. Dan from RPA explained in this thread, the press uses a tried and tested concept... one that is 60 years old. If RPA makes the clamping rings and moulds as supplied to Finebilt users, then the clamping rings should be OK but, in my opinion, to invite people to Germany to see this press without pressing records is not OK.

Where a press has a fixed top pin and a sliding bottom pin (or the other way around as per Fabel presses) you don't need a hole in the puck. As the pins meet, the vinyl is squeezed out to form the centre hole in the record. The Toolex Alpha manual extruder does not make a hole and nor do the plethora of American extruders currently feeding Finebilt presses.

A hole in the puck is essential when using a long bottom centre pin as seen in the W&P, Hamilton and Lened manual presses. The long pin is better for making picture discs, allowing you to build your five part sandwich on the pin so the hole in the puck is really only necessary when you have a long bottom pin typically found only on four column presses.

Before anyone points it out, the Fabel manual extruder does make a hole in the puck but it's not essential for the reasons I mentioned above.

Leandro pointed to the steam/water hoses on the latest photos. Are these indeed hydraulic hoses or a new "German steam" technology we haven't seen yet?

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mossboss
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39580Unread post mossboss
Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:49 pm

Well well well I really cannot understand the negativity sourounding the attempt of these people in making these machines
A lot of Guesswork on the part of posters on the subject without a single word from the makers
There are so many negatives about these machines it is hard to really understand why it is so in view of the fact that there is a real need for pressing capacity
At the end of the day these guys have put their money and resources to the real test in attempting to fill this need as against a score of others who have danced around the issue
There has been many a proposal by quite a few people suggesting that they can also produce a press, so far we have seen nothing from them
So here we have a real situation with a bunch of people producing a new machine which must be a credit to them
In return here we have a bunch of experts as well as a few armchair philosophers judging the potential of these machines by photos posted in this forum as well as elsewhere
I would have thought that positive input rather than criticisism would be more appropriate in this case
There is a shortage of pressing capacity as the vinyl world knows, these people are offering a machine which may go some way in resolving the issue facing the vinyl game
To talk about washers on nuts, nothing wrong with that, hydraulic hoses for steam, they seem like a proper steam hose to me with extremely well made end fittings in Stainless steel, with a proper 90 degree bends to get them out of the way, than holes on the puck as well as minutiae knit picking points made by some seem inappropriate
It will not be long before these machines are in production somewhere, all the points will either be shown to be irrelevant or be modified so as to be fit for purpose
It is not to be forgotten that not all presses ever made where brilliant
The alphas had and still have a lot of issues so do the leneds Hamilton's fable tcs, as well as the smt's, thats after they have made many many hundreds of them
Making anything from scratch even if you are copying an existing design will always have its own issues which will take time and a few presses on the field so as to sort out
In the meantime encouragement and positive input as well as, one may say, suggestions for these people would me more productive rather than being critical of their efforts in particular since we are without first hand knowledge
It would me more conducive to the spirit of a common cause for the continued success of the vinyl record industry, if the negativity shown in this thread or elsewhere in this forum changes towards a positive tone or stops altogether
This very forum is visited by just about every one in the field, despite the fact that they never post or become members, even if they don't they will be pointed to post's by others
So let's be more generous guys they are doing a first in many years we should be giving them a lot of credit
Best
By the way here is another one to look towards to http://www.viryltech.com, coming along nicely.

Best
Chris

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leo gonzalez
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39582Unread post leo gonzalez
Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:14 pm

chris,

the questions raised by others since the beginning of the thread have been valid and have sparked a bunch of comments on the workings of a manual press, which was missing on the board.

so even if you dont like the tone of these comments, they have indeed provoked something positive.

when the project was advertised, i believe it was stated that they were "cloning" the system. now that we see the differences with the original, its obvious that people will ask about those just for mere curiosity.

of course everyone is amazed at the fact that they are at it and all that jazz... kudos to them yes... hats off!!!

chris, if you would build a press, would you have used those nuts with washers?

would you have used stainless steel fittings and if so which grade?

instead of 3/8 hose, why not 3/4?

whats that valve configuration on the side of the press?

might be better to use hose clamps than those hose ends.

this is not constructive enough for you?


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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39600Unread post mossboss
Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:17 pm

I will reply to your post for no other reason than it is quite off the mark
The hoses and fittings are excellent,
Aargh grade of S/S ?
Man these are standard fittings produced by the 1000's
I am sure the grade can be what ever one wants, does it matter for this application?
I Do not think so
And 3/4 " hose
Mmmmm lets see,
Ok so the channels within the mould itself are 3/4" ?????
Or around the 3/8 or less ?..
Nuts and washers ?
May be you ought to consult some text about the use of washers under nuts
And the valve configuration?
Why pay around the $4 + K for a Collins valve when a far better solution can be had for less than half the cost
Now as previously pointed out they will be in the field before long under power
I am not in any way involved with these people, I have no financial involvement either at the end of the day they do not see this forum or some of the participants as serious enough to warrant a response
Chris

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 39604Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:06 pm

And therein lies the beauty of a discussion forum.

There is no doubt the Newbilt press will come to fruition but they have left themselves open to speculation - firstly with the re-badged Finebilt press at its first public showing who one professional who attended described as "a complete waste of time". It might be fair to say that this showing was premature but understandable as it might be imperative to their success to get pre-orders and deposits.

ODME started with a design and a pre-order with deposit from an Israeli start-up allowed them to get funding to make their first machine. ODME went on to merge with the larger Toolex in what was in effect a reverse takeover, making them the largest provider of optical disc machinery in their day. Nothing unusual about this strategy.

Newbilt's website indicates they will be making stamper forming equipment. It uses a photo of an old Digital Matrix laserdisc galvanic system. So again, they're ahead of themselves. That's not to say it won't happen - the whole project so far is looking good.

As for no input from them that's understandable too. The proof is in the pudding. Over the years we've had reports of professionals not joining the forum because of some participants and many more withdrawing from the forum for the same reason. This is nothing new.

The beauty of a discussion forum is that issues of interest can be discussed and critiqued. There is no obligation for anyone to participate. Keep up the discussion, gentlemen.

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Oliver-Ibiza
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 42481Unread post Oliver-Ibiza
Sun May 15, 2016 4:01 am

May 2016 and still no Newbilt press is working on the planet. I asked them for a Video to see pressing records. Nothing is happen. Funny to create a new (old) machine without demonstration. I heard Laser Disc Argentina and a FL-based plant bought Newbilts. Does anybody know if they are working ??

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Oceanus
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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 42626Unread post Oceanus
Sun May 22, 2016 8:13 pm

Newbilt in production :D

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 42645Unread post Aussie0zborn
Mon May 23, 2016 5:06 pm

Very nice. Any chance you could film it in widescreen next time, rather than tall screen?

Delivery of the vinyl puck by the extruder is a good design. Movement of thr moulds sliding in and out might need some refinement but generally, it looks good.

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 42668Unread post ROLANDJAYS
Tue May 24, 2016 12:42 pm

I like it ! :D

nice design , much smaller than the original machines, easy to load, double safety buttons , biscuit gets made as record gets made .
entry level operator can do it .

good job . !! makes me want one !!! :D

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 42672Unread post Aussie0zborn
Tue May 24, 2016 6:24 pm

All such manual machines have double safety buttons. I would think that the sideways action of the buttons would be tiring for the operator. If they were front facing it could be a better ergonomic design.

Perhaps it's a safety feature to have them sideways instead of front facing in case the operator faints, falls forward and activates both buttons while his head is sandwiched between the moulds.

Which reminds me of a remake of Phantom Of The Opera where the phantom has grooves pressed into the side of his face after his head got caught in a record press. Ouch.

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Re: Made A Trip to Germany Last Week: Newbilt

Post: # 42678Unread post untitledthe
Wed May 25, 2016 6:01 am

Works like a charm! Congratz to everyone involved. Finally a new commercial available recordpress in production since 30 odd years! Do you got more information about this setup Oceanus, where is this filmed? The people in the background seems not to be talking german? :) As with the double safety buttons, a very small detail to me but if you want to have the buttns facing towards you this is a really small change to make. What i would want to change if i have to manage these presses is the work height of loading, raise the entire press with 10/20cm with something solid beneeth it. Imagine your back working 2 of these if you see this operator. Also a longer pneumatic cylinder for the outstroke of the moulds so they open just a little bit more. But all these details mentioned here are just customer preferences, and maybe in practise this isnt a problem, its just a cellphone video to judge upon. Anyway its a solid and proven design. Nice times cycle times to, now get in a nice workflow of loading/unloading. Another question, anyone familair what type/brand of valves are used? Very different from the regular controlled steam valves you see in other industries. What type of steam valve is this, how is it called? Something new?

Have a good day!

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