Runout Groove Through the Label

Once you have cut a master laquer, you have metal stampers created and have records pressed from them. Discuss manufacturing here. (Record Matrix Electroforming- Plating, Vinyl Record Pressing.)

Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn

Post Reply
User avatar
Basil Cueburn III
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:26 pm

Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43632Unread post Basil Cueburn III
Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:20 pm

Hello!
I hope you will suffer a question from an outsider, one who is merely a consumer of records, because I really don't know where else to ask. Please forgive my ignorance. I came upon this forum while researching this, but have had no luck.

What I am wondering is, how can a runout groove end up cutting through the label? The particular 12" pressing I'm referring to is Amadou & Mariam's Dimanche à Bamako, pressed at MPO France. Release information is here:

https://www.discogs.com/Amadou-Mariam-Dimanche-Bamako/release/7579888

The runout groove cuts into the label of both sides, of both discs, on the copy I have. I had heard that this was something that occurred with styrene records, which are injecta-molded. But the label does seem to be paper, (although it is amazingly flat compared to some other records I looked at). The record feels like vinyl, as far as I can tell, and, although the edge seems exceptionally smooth, (no trimming burrs), it is not flat-edged. The center hole appears to be drilled. It's gotta be vinyl, right?

Perhaps this is a mystery only to an amateur like myself but, in all the decades I've been buying records, I don't think I've ever gotten a pressing like this. In my limited understanding of your dark arts, I picture a glob of vinyl being tossed between two plates, which are then mashed together, so I can't understand how a label could be applied before the record was stamped. Am I wrong? How could this occur? TIA for your help!

User avatar
piaptk
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:40 am
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43633Unread post piaptk
Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:15 pm

The label is placed on the plates when the glob of vinyl is smooshed. Whoever cut the lacquer masters for the record cut it too far in (or they may have gotten 45 sized labels, which are bigger). Therefore when the plates came down they impressed the grooves into the paper label. Seems like a pressing problem (I got some records once that they had pressed with a 45 label on a 10" that did the same thing. I rejected the entire pressing and made them make them again).
I Buy/Sell/Restore Vintage Machines/Parts and Provide Phone/In Person Tech Support
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com

User avatar
Aussie0zborn
Posts: 1822
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43634Unread post Aussie0zborn
Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:49 am

This is not a pressing problem at all. The pressing plant simply pressed what was delivered to them on the master discs. There is no way the centre hole in your record was "drilled". Check out some videos, particularly of manual record pressing to see how the label is affixed to the record and how the centre hole is formed. Try googling GZ Media or Palomino Records.

So how do the lead-out grooves extend all the way in to the label?

Older lathes like the Neumann AM32B use cams on the sled to activate the lead-in spiral and a horizontal extendable pin to activate the lead-out spiral. If the lead-out pin was not re-set after cutting a 7" record, you would get the record that you describe. The locked concentric groove on a 7" disc has a smaller diameter than the locked concentric groove on a 12" record.

So, if the 7" lead-out was activated rather than the 12" cam, the grooves will ofcourse run into the larger label. This was probably accidental - if it was done purposely I would suspect they would have used the smaller diameter labels as used for 7" records.

To do this on a VMS66 or 70 lathe, you would need to set the programmer which is quite a hassle. Interesting thing here is that Discogs says it was mastered by one of the owners of Metropolis Mastering, London although that might relate to the digital pre-mastering and not the lacquer cutting. I doubt Metropolis uses such an old lathe so it may have been cut elsewhere.

User avatar
Aussie0zborn
Posts: 1822
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43635Unread post Aussie0zborn
Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:16 am

piaptk wrote: .... Seems like a pressing problem (I got some records once that they had pressed with a 45 label on a 10" that did the same thing. I rejected the entire pressing and made them make them again).
I take it the "45 label" is a 92mm diameter label as used on 7" records? Given that 7" records have the smallest diameter concentric locked groove at the end, I would think that cutting past this diameter is a cutting problem rather than a pressing problem.

Modern day 10" records usually use a 100mm diameter label as used on 12" records so if you use a 92mm label you could cut further in but going further than the diameter for 7" records suggests a cutting fault unless the intention was to use the even smaller labels as used on 78rpm discs. I'm a little confused how this occurred.

Except for the 78rpm and the DMM record profiles that produced records without a contour on the face, the label area of a conventional vinyl record is thicker than the music area. Therefore, if you used smaller labels and cut further in your groove would be travelling uphill once it hits the outer diameter of the original label area. This may cause an undesirable or interesting effect.

User avatar
Basil Cueburn III
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:26 pm

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43639Unread post Basil Cueburn III
Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:27 am

Thanks for your kind answers! I didn't know that the label was affixed at the same time the record was pressed. Most labels seem to be sitting on top of the vinyl, a glued-on piece of paper. This one seems almost impressed into the vinyl - there's almost no ridge. When I get home later, I will measure the label. Interesting stuff!

User avatar
piaptk
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:40 am
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43648Unread post piaptk
Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:47 am

Ok. I had it backwards. 7" cut, 12" label.
I Buy/Sell/Restore Vintage Machines/Parts and Provide Phone/In Person Tech Support
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com

User avatar
piaptk
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:40 am
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43649Unread post piaptk
Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:50 am

And when I say pressing problem, the plant should have noticed that the grooves went into the label and checked to see if that was what was intended.
I Buy/Sell/Restore Vintage Machines/Parts and Provide Phone/In Person Tech Support
www.MichaelDixonVinylArt.com
www.LatheCutCamp.com
www.RecordLatheParts.com
www.MobileVinylRecorders.com
www.LatheCuts.com

User avatar
Aussie0zborn
Posts: 1822
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43651Unread post Aussie0zborn
Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:09 pm

That makes sense now. Yes the plant should have checked.

User avatar
mossboss
Posts: 2050
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am
Location: Australia.

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43652Unread post mossboss
Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:13 pm

May be a simple case of 7" labels been cut on the 12" die cutter. In an auto press at almost 2 a minute, well, if it's a small run they be pressed sleeved than into the outer bags out the door before any one noticed the issue
On the other hand the client may just said OK let them go rather than waiting another 3 odd months for his order
Hard to know the real story, all things posted here are plausible
Cheers
Chris

User avatar
Basil Cueburn III
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:26 pm

Re: Runout Groove Through the Label

Post: # 43675Unread post Basil Cueburn III
Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:33 pm

I measured the labels, and they are about 99mm. I also measured the labels on a couple other LPs, and they were all 100mm which, as you say, is the standard size. The runout cuts into the labels by about a millimeter. That would make the diameter of the concentric groove about 98mm, if that means anything to you. I would've liked to compare the diameter of the runout groove with that of a seven-inch, but I got rid of all mine years ago.
Clearly, they had the settings for the runout wrong. What really confused me, at first, was how the runout could've actually cut through the paper, since I thought the label couldn't be applied until after the record had been pressed. Having checked out a video, I now see they make a label-sized vinyl donut first, then press that with the label already on.

Incidentally, according to the Discogs release page, it was pressed at MPO. Presumably at MPO France, since it was a French release.

Thanks for your replies! I learned a few things, (and terms), I didn't know before.

Post Reply