noisy acetates in 2010

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roberth909
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noisy acetates in 2010

Post: # 9857Unread post roberth909
Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:09 am

Hello,

I'm in the process of trying to get a 12" 33RPM album with 20 minute sides out. I now have test pressings. The reference acetates were rather noisy (crackle throughout the entire sides) and now my test pressings seem quite noisy in a similar crackling way.

Now, I know it's possible to cut and press very clean vinyl with minimal surface noise, I have many examples in my record collection. Most of my vinyl is from 1980 - 1986 before I transitioned over to CDs.

I'm beginning to wonder if the source of this crackling is the acetate itself? Are acetates in 2010 not up to the quality of acetates in the 1980s? Heck, I even have an acetate from 1998 from the first record I had pressed, and both the acetate and the final pressing have completely acceptable levels of surface noise.

So I'm a little frustrated by what I'm hearing with this album project. It seems like even splitting the album across four sides and increasing the level on the vinyl might help the S/N issue a bit, but the noise would still very much be there. My DJ Stanton GrooveMaster II is a little more forgiving of the crackling than my Hi-Fi Pickering XSV-4000, but I would prefer, in an ideal world, to have far less crackling.

Are others finding acetates today to be noisier than they have been in the past?

I'm assuming the acetate is the main source of my noise problem, not the plating or pressing. If others in 2010 have clean acetates in 2010, then maybe I can start looking at the plating or pressing as a source of noise, but based on my noisy reference, I'm inclined to blame the acetate.

Please let me know if you have clean acetates in 2010 and what brand they are. Heck, give me a batch # if you've got it. This information would be for the 14" acetates, the ones that matter, not the 12" references.

My mastering engineer did a great job with the transfer, I just wish it could have been transferred to something much cleaner.

Thanks!

Robert

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Aussie0zborn
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Post: # 9861Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:03 am

Have you discussed this with your disc cutting engineer? Are any of his other recent cuts like this? What does the rpessing plant have to say about this? Very unusual to have crackly reference cuts to begin with.

Cutting 20 minutes per side @ 33.3rpm is not exactly a miracle....most of your records from the heyday of vinyl will be around 22 , 24 or 26 minutes per side.

The crackling should not be there to start with. Hopefully the professional disc cutters here can answer your question about the quality of master lacquers. There are only two manufacturers in the world today MDC in Japan and Apollo in USA who make Apollo and Transco lacquer discs.

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mossboss
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Robert

Post: # 9863Unread post mossboss
Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:38 am

Hey There
Acetates are fine not an issue in so far as surface noise or crackles are concerned
Just clarify something for me Have you played back the actual acetate that was used to make your TP's?
If so and it has noise on the master than you have your answer
Since it is useless any way I would play it back and listen to it for a comparisson with your tp/s
I would not bother with the reference 12" whats the point
If the master is clean than the most likely source is the silvering process or the plating baths where very low on nickel etc etc etc etc quite a long list
Also The plating shop would have mothers from your job, play them back and see if the noise is there Surface noise you can not do much about Clicks and pops you can, dehorn the mothers, get another set of stampers out of them way you go
keep us in the loop on this it helps others as well
Cheers
Chris

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gengy
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Post: # 9870Unread post gengy
Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:11 am

I wanted to remember that an acetate is a very soft material and that the manufacturer by 5/6 times for play before it begins to deteriorate and thus increase its noise.

cheers
Alessandro Di Guglielmo
Mastering and Disk Cutting

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concretecowboy71
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Post: # 9872Unread post concretecowboy71
Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:45 am

I have been using Transco masters for the last couple months and the S/N has been really good once I dialed in my stylus heat. Before that, I had a few cuts that seemed noisy.

Perhaps your cutter used an old stylus or had put a new one in without checking the heat setting.

Do you know what the cutting system was that did the transfer?

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roberth909
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Post: # 9908Unread post roberth909
Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:30 pm

Right now the pressing plant is addressing issues with "materials" (raw vinyl I would imagine) and they have made some adjustments to the press. They want to make new test pressings for me. I've suggested pulling stampers from the mothers, but they don't seem to want to do that, yet.

I did load audio snippets from four test pressings into Digital Performer, synced up the tracks, and the noise seems to be in the same locations for all four pressings. That's for the a-side. I would think because the noise is so similar, if not exact, that it's on the stamper?

The b-side has similar patterned noise, but there is a lot of additional noise on top of it that seems much more random from test to test. This very well could be from the material and press adjustment issues that they are addressing.

I have audio snippets if that helps shed some light on the noise:

http://www.anarobik.com/publicfiles/ana_test_press_1644_side_1.mp3

http://www.anarobik.com/publicfiles/ana_test_press_1644_side_2.mp3

Thanks for the feedback!

Robert

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roberth909
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Post: # 9909Unread post roberth909
Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:41 pm

The lathe: it's a Neumann VMS 66 lathe with an SX74 cutter head. The actual cut is great, I can't detect hardly any distortion, if any, throughout the entire disc. I asked for more conservative levels for a cleaner cut. I suppose that makes the noise stand out more, but it's not super quiet, I have comparable examples in my records collection that aren't buried in surface noise. Depeche Mode - Black Celebration, side 2, 26 minutes, perfectly listenable with minimal noise.

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concretecowboy71
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Post: # 9925Unread post concretecowboy71
Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:09 pm

Gotta Groove has been having an issue they are calling stitching, which sounds raspy every rotation of the disc for the affected part.

Mossboss has suggestions in a post about that recently.

Search the forun for stitching and it should come up.

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emorritt
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Post: # 9930Unread post emorritt
Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:35 pm

I just had that problem with a dub; had it on two masters a while back that had to be re-cut. It doesn't seem to happen too regularly but is annoying when it does.

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roberth909
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Post: # 9936Unread post roberth909
Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:34 pm

Interesting post:

https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1974&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&mforum=lathetrolls

I'm curious to hear my new tests after the adjustments and new raw vinyl.

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roberth909
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Post: # 10030Unread post roberth909
Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:54 pm

I got the test pressings. The noise is getting better (less). The b-side is much better. There is still a problem with the first 1/2 inch into the b-side, there's a rather loud swatch of scratchiness, but and character of the scratchiness is different with each test pressing. So, I think the main source of the really loud offending noise is happening during the pressing process.

Are there any typical press adjustments that could be made to improve noise, on the outer area of one side of the record, that seems to happen in the same physical proximity of the record? It may seem odd to suggest things to the pressing plant, but, why not?

Thanks,
Robert

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blacknwhite
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Post: # 10032Unread post blacknwhite
Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:49 pm

...non-fill, Mossboss?...

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roberth909
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Post: # 10039Unread post roberth909
Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:36 pm

Right now I'm considering pushing my pressing out to October and just skipping the related issues during the hot summer months, if the plant is willing...

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