presto 6n vs. other machines

[professor plum]

hey guys, so im very new to this and have been mouseing around here the past few hours.

my goal is to be able to cut small batches of records (20-50-ish or something like that) because a). i would just like to do it for fun and to learn about how records are made and b.) if i could do small batches of lathe cut records for bands here in brooklyn for the cost of materials and get a little extra money for beer, why not? is that practical?

plus if i get pretty good and save some money i could have a go at making a small press or something myself, but thats only if all goes well i guess...

im looking at a presto 6n on ebay right now and i was wondering if you guys though i could get away with making a master on a machine like that with a good deal of practice? could i send it out to be pressed?

were those machines normally mono or stereo? would i be able to change the cutterhead to a stereo one if its not?

from my limited knowledge, it seems that a neumann lathe is pretty much the cadillac of this kind of stuff and they are $$$. did they ever make a small lathe or some simpler model or something i can score in the 1-2k range? im down to get something quality but i dont have 20-30k...

any other lathes to check out?

once i have a lathe what are the peripherals like?

it seems like i need at least a pre amp and power amp if it dosent have one already...

what else? a compressor? a mixer? any other helpful goodies?

and i guess lastly, can someone maybe point me in the direction of a website or something that sells blank vinyl?

thanks a ton for any help and making a cool spot to learn about this kind of stuff... i hope my questions give you enough to work with.

-plum

[opcode66]

Welcome to the fabulous world of cutting!

If you can get setup and minimize your costs there is usually a few dollars to be made. However, this is becoming more a labor of love than an engine of profit these days...

There are a number of considerations for you. I'm not sure you can get setup to make good cuts for bands for $1-2K. Might take a bit more than that. But, not terribly much more. It all depends on what you are ok with and what the artists you cut for are ok with.

When you say you want to make a press do you really mean you want to or can fabricate a 100 ton vinyl press? That would be a huge undertaking. And, to press records requires more than a press. You need all sorts of stuff for plating. And, steam generator, and cooling tower, etc. I'd say focus on cutting first.

If you had meant that you want to make your own lathe, well though possible, it would be very difficult and very time consuming. But, if you think you can go for it! There is a guy on the forum named Flozki who is currently working on a new cuttrerhead called Caruso. So, for sure, homebrew systems are doable. Just tough.

The Presto 6n on eBay comes with a lathe body, overhead feedscrew mechanism, and a 1-D cutterhead. Does not seem to come with additional feedscrews so you will only be able to cut at one pitch to start (lines per inch). You can buy others down the road. It appears to come with a Mono cutterhead. So, you can only cut mono records with this unit. Also, I'm not sure how much of the high end this head can handle. I seem to remember that the head can not handle frequencies above 5K but I'm sure one of our Presto experts could answer that specifically.

http://www.youtube.com/user/speakerscornerrec#p/u

There are a series of videos from this user on youtube that show you every step of the process to plate and press a record. There are many other videos on youtube regarding cutting records and then the plating and pressing process. Do some searches and sit back and watch the magick happen on screen.

The bands you cut for will have to be ok with a few things:

1. Unless you get diamond cutting styli ($350 per needle) you will only be able to cut lacquers (a.k.a. acteates or dubs). Laqcuers do degrade over time. Simply playing them will wear out the grooves and cause high end frequencies to be lost. With diamond you can cut into plastic blanks and not have the playback degredation issue.

2. Your clients would have to be ok with a mono record. Without a stereo cutterhead, you will only be able to cut mono records. A stereo cutterhead will cost you 5 or 6K at least for a working one.

If you cut a lacquer and have it plated and pressed then you wont have these issues but it will still be mono and it will still have the high end frequencies cut due to the limitations of the 1-D cutterhead.

You would need to find a mono amp that output at 8 Ohms. This system does not come with an amplifier. That is required to drive signal to the cutterhead. You can't cut without one.

The auction does not state anything about the actual working order. All to ofter you see auction like this saying "I'm selling this for a friend". On eBay, in my experience, that is code for I'm selling this thing that I know is not working as expected and so I'll say it's a friend's item so I can claim to know nothing about it. Who knows if the lathe runs. If it is missing anything physically, if the pucks have rubber that is still good, if the motor actually works, etc. I would say wait for one that says it is in working order. Or, buy one from Gib at Westech, he generally has 6n's and other Presto lathes. And he will restore it to working order.

http://www.west-techservices.com/

For sure you could have a pressing made form a cut on this machine but I don't think you would want to do that for the reasons above. However, yes, if you spent some money on a cutterhead like the Vinylium SC-99 you could certainly cut quality stereo masters for plating and pressing.

Neumann lathes are the height of record cutting. The best was the VSM80 system. They only made about 50 of them. There are even fewer than that still running. Probably only about 4 exist in the US, 2 are owned by the Church of Scientology. The VSM70 system is the next best and they made about 600 of them. A lot are still running today. This is the workhorse of the industry for sure. It was nice because unlike Scully lathes, Neumann lathes were turnkey. They came with everything you needed to start cutting and did not require add-ons. To find a working Neumann you must expect to pay $20K. If you want a restored one expect to pay $30K. If you want a VMS80 expect to pay a minimum of about $50K.

They made earlier models. They only made high quality pro gear. No mid range or portables. You could score 66 model for around $10K. Or you could just buy the AM32 and add things to it. My guess is that you should be considering either Vinylium or Vinyl Recorder.

http://www.vinylium.ch/page/content/index.asp?MenuID=24&ID=21&Menu=1&Item=11

http://vinylrecorder.com/

At minium you need a lathe body, good working platter motor, a working cutterhead, stylus, and amplifier. Other good things to have are: monitoring system, a simple mixing board, compressor, hi/low pass filter, de-esser, maximixer, EQ, parametric EQ. Other things that one can add to lathes are: diamond stylus, heating wire for stylus, stereo cutterhead, viable groove pitch computer, etc.

There are only two companies that I am aware of world-wide that sell lacquers. Apollo Masters is who I go through. There is a Japanese company but I have no dealings with them.

http://www.apollomasters.com/

If you get a diamond needle then you can cut polycarbonate plastic blanks. There are many people to get these from on this forum. Also, you can purchase them from Flo at Vinylike.com.

Please feel free to use the search feature on this forum to find answers to many things. I spent the better part of a year reading as much as possible on this site. I also suggest buying the AES anthology on disc cutting. DISK RECORDING VOL.1: GROOVE GEOMETRY AND THE RECORDING PROCESS

http://www.aes.org/publications/anthologies/

Hope this helps get you going in the right direction!

Best of luck,

Opcode66

[professor plum]

wow.

thanks you for the SUPER helpful and in-depth reply. its so good to kinda have an idea what the scope of this is now.

i really look forward to lurking here/watching youtube, and learning a ton.

the DIY press idea was a wayyy down the road adventure if i get good at cutting. it seems like it would be an interesting project. but nothing like that anytime soon. i dont know if i would have access to the kind of tools you need to try to build a lather or else i would think about it.

i have one more question though. on a machine like the nuemann 66, is that one i can expect to have a stereo cutter and/or dimpnd tip on from the get go, or is that 10k+6k?

it seemed at first glance that the other 2 newer cutters you recommended were about the 10k mark, and as a general all around audio geek,if i was investing that much already i would be willing to put up with a few extra dollars or headaches to have a classic old piece of german engineering around me

thanks for the warning about the ebay 6n. i was getting a little ahead of myself with excitement. lol

and MANY thanks for the list of stuff other than a lathe. i was kinda thinking of getting some outboard stuff for recording, so now i can look at some of that stuff with both applications in mind.

i really really appreciate the warm welcome and wealth of information.

[opcode66]

Cool brother! Take into consideration that you can get by with plugins for your DAW like ProTools or Wavelab or Logic. So, until you get nice outboard processing you can always do it in the digital realm.

The VMS66 is stereo. However, I do believe that the AM-32 (the 30's model) is mono... FYI a lot of mono lathes can be modified to be stereo. You could take a Presto 6n or a Presto 8K or something like that and mod it for cut stereo.

As long as you start with a lathe body that is worth modding you are golden. Important factors are platter size (14" lacquers for 12" plating and pressing), platter weight, platter bearing, motor (type, torque, condition, etc), pitch control (LPI or lines per inch), and the type of feedscrew mechanism for the cutterhead.

If the overhead feedscrew mechanism can handle another head easily and you have an adapter plate machined you could mount a head like Flo's Caruso, Vinylium's SC-99, or a Neumann SX. Once mounted, you simply need the proper amplification and feedback racks and you are good to go for cutting stereo into lacquers with sapphire or into plastic with diamond.

Most cutterheads can take a diamond cutting stylus. It's really a matter of the shank (the piece of metal that holds the cutting stone and also attaches to the cutterhead). Think of a shank like a sleave with the stone glued to one end. As long as you order a needle with the proper shank you are golden. Or, you can order needles with a particular shank and have a shank adapter machined.

A 66 system will probably cost right around $10K. Not exactly sure though.

Man you should have seen the portable mono cutter that I got all excited about on eBay that lead me here and eventually to owning a VMS70. It was a pathetic beaten up little portable. But, without seeing that I wouldn't be here now!

Cheers,

Opcode66

[subkontrabob]

welcome professor plum! your avatar and name tell me that you're into jamaican music.... is that correct?

Opcode posted some good links, the disk recording anthology is great, but here is some more (less "engineery", and best of all, free) stuff to check out:

https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1962&mforum=lathetrolls
this is a manual for an old lathe, it has some very good basic information about disk cutting.


https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1042&mforum=lathetrolls

https://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=1042&mforum=lathetrolls

http://www.west-techservices.com/disc.htm
all kinds of documents, a disk recording glossary etc etc.....

oh, and if time permits, read the whole forum

[professor plum]

hey man! thanks for the welcome! you tottaly guessed. i loveeeeee jamican music. early ska, and dub stuff are pretty much my favorite music ever along with a healty dose of some healthy fuzz guitar.

thanks for the links! im gunna make my way through those soon...

i plan to stick around and read a lot. this place has already got some prety crazy ideas brewing in my head...