Interesting cutting issue.

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Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby concretecowboy71 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:41 pm

On two jobs that share similar circumstances, I have got lift outs in my track bands between songs.

Here are the parameters:

The first "song" is under 30 seconds.

Audio plays through the track band from one song to the next.

Volume is not excessive.

Phase does not seem to be a problem.

Any ideas?
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Unread postby opcode66 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:48 pm

Depth of cut?
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Unread postby concretecowboy71 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:52 pm

Sorry I left that out:

2 mils starting width. That would translate to 1 mil deep, correct ?
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Unread postby opcode66 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:56 pm

That is shallow. Anything with volume I cut at 3 mils groove width or more.
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Unread postby concretecowboy71 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:08 pm

Interesting observation.

How did you come by that number? The material from Neumann has always suggested 2 mil width and at one point I went through my vinyl collection and randomly picked 12 records to look at under the scope.

Almost all of them were 2mils wide and a couple were a little narrower.

A lot of 7" records I have looked at are well over 2 mils, even up to 4.

I am certainly not opposed to cutting wider if it will help.

Do you know at what depth/width and needle will fail to track properly?
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Unread postby dietrich10 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:34 pm

a 2 mil cut during the 'time' between songs should not skip. there is no audio.
what LPI running? grooves clashing?

belt adjust time?
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Unread postby gold » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:40 pm

Sum to mono and see if it goes away. If it doesn't it's system malfunction if does it's the program.
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Unread postby concretecowboy71 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:46 pm

Belts are new (1 month old).

LPI -- 180

No grooves touching. The groove moves the way it should then the head just lifts out.

Paul, cut the same audio again and it went fine. I am leaning towards a "system malfunction" but am wondering what to look at.

Is this just something that might happen every now and then? These things are old and quirky I know, but is there something deeper I should look at?
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Unread postby opcode66 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:16 pm

@D - He did say there was audio during the track band.

@Concrete - When you said you got lift outs I thought you meant on playback not while cutting.

When I cut loud dance track I have to cut deeper thus the 3 mil to 3.5 mil groove width. Even with summing bass to mono. Otherwise I get skipping playback. But, I can always cut even with loud content and 2 mil groove width. Cutting is never the issue, playback is. 2 mil is the standard and is good for lower volume longer play.

One time my lathe sort of conked out during a cut and the head jumped. Power went out on some modules for a second. I think there was a loose connection from when I changed out my ps66 the last time. I reseated it and everything was fine after that.
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Unread postby gold » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:00 pm

concretecowboy71 wrote:Is this just something that might happen every now and then? These things are old and quirky I know, but is there something deeper I should look at?


It shouldn't. If it just happened this one time I doubt you will be able to chase it down. If it happens again you will have something to go on.
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Unread postby mossboss » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:37 am

Paul is right
These random cases are hard to track down it points to a loose connection somewhere
As a precaution we take all of the connectors off spray them with contact cleaner once every few months making sure they all go back nice and firm
It seems to do the trick with random occurrences Alas only most of the times
We still get unexplained events
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Unread postby gold » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:05 pm

A loose connection in the depth current circuit is a likely culprit. I agree with Mossboss. The depth current meter is at the output of the circuit (but doesn't get feedback from the solenoid).

I'd keep an eagle eye on the depth current meter for any instability or jumps. It wouldn't hurt to re seat the TS card in the depth control panel. Also turn the depth pot and make sure the meter moves smoothly with no jumps. That would point to a dead spot in the pot.

I forget whether you have a leaf switch or microswitches in your suspension. If you have the leaf switches I'd squirt some contact cleaner there.
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Unread postby concretecowboy71 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:32 am

I have leaf-type switches.

I have reseated my connections and will keep an eye out for odd movement on my depth gauge.

I did work the pot and did not see anything odd. The needle moved smoothly up and down the range of the meter.

I keep this updated if I find anything new.
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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby platesrecords » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:45 pm

Hi everyone - thanks for this thread...found it both interesting and useful!

I am currently an amateur cutting on a kinda frankenstein scully with capps varipitch computer [which i operate manually, without feedback loop] and presto mono 1d cutter head.


- I am getting lift outs and overcuts currently and trying to diagnose.

The problem at the moment is all my lacquers are slightly warped! I'm imaging this is enough to cause these issues, but also it is obviously preventing me from progressing until i rule it out- ordering a fresh box of lacquers tomorrow.

I am cutting dance dj dubs at around 200 lpi and and fairly hot maybe +2/+3 db [according to NAD reference level] - I was getting aggressive overcuts and one groove wall looked to have almost split off and run across 3 or 4 grooves-hard to tell as I've never seen this before. It seemed to be happening only a towards the centre of the record yesterday, but i tried dropping the level at least 1db and set the LPI lower and it still happened. Today it also seems to have shown it is not happening in the same places each time either.

Once the warped blanks are ruled out, I suppose the reasons I see might be;

-a loose connection in the depth current circuit [as mentioned here, thanks for the tip!]
-not enough weight on the cutter head?
-not cutting deep enough [haven't been able to set depth properly yet due to warped lacquers]
-Capps computer is sometimes a bit erratic... sometimes LPI gauge does a bit of a dance- can jump wildly to like 350 lpi from 200. I wonder if this is part of its actual functioning or not but it doesn't receive the audio signal.
-Clipping in audio? On my PPM meters, although the signal remains within my chosen cutting level, it sometimes flashes briefly as clipping [perhaps on bassier sections]. It does not sound bad in the studio or on cuts. Could this cause overcuts or lift outs? It is not clipping anywhere else in the signal path.

Ok that's a lot, sorry...

Thanks in advance guys, and apologies for dragging you back so far into the past with this post!

Nick
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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby markrob » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:28 pm

Hi,

Have you looked at your low frequency activity? Maybe some sub sonic issues? If the pitch reading is erratic, I would look into that as well. Sounds suspect.

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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby platesrecords » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:32 am

markrob wrote:Hi,

Have you looked at your low frequency activity? Maybe some sub sonic issues? If the pitch reading is erratic, I would look into that as well. Sounds suspect.

Mark


Thanks Mark - low frequencies were a suspicion of mine too, I just wondered what exactly clipping bass does to the cuts? I presume it would cause grooves to be wider and deeper and therefore demands more space and fewer LPI to avoid overcuts or lift outs.

I did also check that none of the source material was out of phase but didn't find any problems with it

Cheers

N
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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby THD » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:39 am

Hi,

This is a cool and easy tool, to deal with the bass that's out of phase:

http://www.nugenaudio.com/monofilter-professional-bass-management-mastering-plugin-aax-au-vst_25
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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby platesrecords » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:59 pm

Thanks for the link - that looks like a really useful tool for me! Gonna trial it :)
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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby dubcutter89 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:41 pm

Out of phase bass is not a problem if you're using a real mono cutterhead (Presto) since it can not make any vertical modulation....
If the pitch computer is not hooked up to any signal then it can not react to it. But maybe it is broken and does unpredictable stuff...
If the material has huge amount of low bass then big modulation will occur, but that is not a problem on short recordings (low LPI)

Is that happening on the same spot of the record?
Is it electrical caused (audio, weired pitch computer)?
Is it a mechanical issue? (does also appear without music, same spot/diameter, mechanics dirty bent or broken)?

Do you have a pic of the grooves?

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Re: Interesting cutting issue.

Unread postby platesrecords » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:43 am

Thanks for the insight Lukas - hope all is well!

I suspected what you're saying about vertical modulation, thanks for clearing it up. I would say that it is not the musical content or excessive bass causing issues because i have tried several different tracks now. It was previously just happening towards the end of the record but now doesn't seem to be following a pattern.

Still not sure why i am getting overcuts - i will do my best to take a picture for you this week, it is very difficult! I'll try and hook up a webcam or something/

I am not sure if it is electrical or mechanical issue yet - as suggested, it could be the current going to the cutter head to set the depth that isnt working, or the warped lacquers may simply be the problem?, or the jumping LPI dial may also have caused this.

Fancy catching up on skype this week maybe Lukas if you have time?

Cheers

Nick
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