Question for dub cutters (legality)

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opcode66
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23651Unread post opcode66
Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:59 pm

I buy tracks from online brokers: Beatport, Traxsource, Stompy, juno, etc. They expect you to burn the tracks to CD-R to play on CDJ's in clubs. Or, these days, to copy to a jump drive or straight to your laptop hard drive to play with digital dj software. In all cases, a legitimate COPY of the originally downloaded file is made for its INTENDED use by a dj. Tell me what the difference is between that and cutting a ONE-OFF DUB PLATE (not a master for duplication). In my mind there is technically no difference.
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mossboss
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23656Unread post mossboss
Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:41 pm

Quite wrong actually
Personal use does not cover or allow you to use copy for public performance
I am talking about the strict application of copyright notice/law, the practical side of things well it is simply a case that you play with fire you will ultimately get burned
If the speed limit is 35 miles per hour and you are doing 60 mph Is it OK? Of course it is not, it is fine until the state trooper pulls you over, but that may never happen or you may get pulled up more than once, than you are dealt with according to stature
If you got away with it it does not make it legal
This may be an over simplification but in principle it is the same
The question is a vexed one but thats the law whether we like it or not agree with it or otherwise
At the end of the day the law is there to protect all and sundry it all depends which side of the fence you are sitting on and what part you playing or taking in the industry
As of recently in the UK the guys that got raided some time back where dealt with by the long arm of the law
One got a sentence quite enough to deter him of ever doing it again I would have thought, besides his legal fees which run into a substantial sum will certainly have him think twice about doing it again
The other is still waiting for the outcome of his case, another person involved in the same raid has not yet even being interviewed, he is a resident in the continent not in the UK
Word has it that they will not bother with him as the Authorities there have no budget to pursue him besides he is a bit of a wanderer in so far as tracking him down
No fixed address as they say A good way to be if you are doing these things
The "distributor" is cooling his hills as a guest of her majesty for the next 12-18 months or so, his bank account has been confiscated, it was deemed to be the result of proceeds of crime
A number of other individuals interviewed, played dumb or ignorance or it was to hard to pin them so they where left off the hook
That was all on vinyl by the way the medium that no one cares about! as reading between the lines here there seems to be a view that no one bothers with vinyl now days! Ha
I beg to differ as it is not like that at all fellows
The point is:
The guys protecting copyright need to strike every now and than so as to ensure that the fees are still coming in so they got a job.
They will pounce on any one who is infringing copyright, we all of us here are in the vinyl or cutting game for pleasure or as a way of earning a living
In our game we are very very easy targets
We are much easier to pin down, here is the reason guys!
There may be 100,000 or more CD manufacturing replication and duplication plants out there plus a few million CD burners owned by individuals
For these guys looking for a successful prosecution would be like looking for a needle in a haystack if they are looking for something to stick in a court of law
Vinyl and dub cuts? Not hard to go figure out were to go
How many of us are out there?
Say about 40 pressing plants and anywhere between 3-500 cutters will cover the whole lot worldwide and that may be over the top on cutters both professional and hobby or part time small lathe cut runs
What would you do if you where a person involved policing copyright infringement so as to get a successful prosecution?
Personally having been following the UK case for over 2 years now I would be very reluctant doing anything that may be outside the law even if it is doubtful that it is illegal I would still be careful
I would suggest that every one here take note of this simple fact, we are all a very easy target
I would also make the point that it would not be a case that they are looking for any financial gain in taking any one on who may be doing what they deem "illegal" but rather than establishing that they are "vigilant" and they do bring successful prosecutions so as to justify their existence
So beware guys make sure that you follow simple rules and always get a copyright release form signed by your clients
It is up to us to protect ourselves from all sorts of people out there who want to take the easy path placing us in a compromising situation without us even knowing
Its no that hard follow the rules, don't just take the view that you can interpret the law based on what others are doing It may not serve you well
Always protect yourselves by getting a copyright release from the client let him be the guy that does the explaining
Cheers
Chris

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opcode66
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23659Unread post opcode66
Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:03 pm

If the music sold on Beatport was not meant for DJ's to play at clubs then they would go out of business...
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markrob
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23667Unread post markrob
Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:55 pm

Hi,

This is from the Beatport web site terms and conditions:

All "Content", including but not limited to digital downloads of sound recordings and related digital content, including songs, mixes and loops, music, downloads or samples, and all software, artwork, graphics, video, text, interfaces, Trademarks, logos, images, photographs, and any other element of the Website, including the layout, look and feel, organization, and coordination of such Content on the Website is the property of or is licensed to Beatport, and is protected by U.S. and international trademark, trade dress, copyright, and other intellectual property rights laws. Without the prior written consent of Beatport, and except as provided in this Agreement, no Content may be transmitted, distributed, translated, publicly displayed, uploaded, published, recorded, retransmitted, rented, sold, distributed, digitized, marketed, reproduced, altered to make new works, performed, or compiled in any way. Through the use of the Website, you are permitted to listen to Samples (as defined below), and obtain digital downloads of sound recordings and related digital content, including songs, mixes and loops, which is part of the Website's Content. Some of the Content is "Products". The Content is only for your personal, noncommercial use.

So it looks like its not legal to use this material as a source for live performance.

Mark

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JayDC
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23674Unread post JayDC
Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:25 am

markrob wrote: So it looks like its not legal to use this material as a source for live performance.
Absolutely 100% correct.. Unless you have express written permission from the artist, label, and (most of all) the publisher, your not cutting anything bought legally. DUBPLATES in the DJ scene I am apart of are given to you from the artist "exclusively" with permission to transfer to any type of media with the intention of public performance..
optcode66 wrote: If the music sold on Beatport was not meant for DJ's to play at clubs then they would go out of business...
Professional DJs would not get their music from these sources.. aspiring DJs do, an those are the ones that are "kept down" in all of this, make a mix of beatport tracks and uploaded it to soundcloud.. it'll get removed before it gets one play.. That music is copyright the publisher, and they DO enforce it.. Same with records "technically" it is illegal to DJ most records bought at a record store.. That's why DJ record pools used to exist, you're paying for the vinyl and the license for public performance..
generally its for reproduction.. but i like to play wif it sometimes.. :P

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scalawag
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23703Unread post scalawag
Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:14 pm

I've never had a single problem with mixes done with Beatport musics posted on Soundcloud or Mixcloud. They are still there...

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JayDC
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23704Unread post JayDC
Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:19 pm

scalawag wrote:I've never had a single problem with mixes done with Beatport musics posted on Soundcloud or Mixcloud. They are still there...
Tell that to all the kiddos on my facebook news feed that constantly bitch about this... i don't use beatport nor soundcloud, so i don't have personal experience..
generally its for reproduction.. but i like to play wif it sometimes.. :P

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opcode66
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23726Unread post opcode66
Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:53 pm

I'm really not speaking to the legality. I understand what Beatport has to put up on the site. I'm speaking more to the reality of the situation.

Like Jay, I also get a lot of music directly from fellow artists/friends. So, that is not really an issue.

But, in the real world, this happens every club night.
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JayDC
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 23753Unread post JayDC
Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:52 pm

opcode66 wrote:But, in the real world, this happens every club night.
I think if you track whom the publisher of the song is, and who the parent company of the club is you may see a pattern... that's a whole other topic, on a different board altogether...
generally its for reproduction.. but i like to play wif it sometimes.. :P

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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 25200Unread post Dub Studio
Tue May 07, 2013 6:26 am

Its all about the Ts and Cs!

Some retailers allow it, some don't.

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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 25202Unread post Dub Studio
Tue May 07, 2013 8:17 am

Professional DJs would not get their music from these sources.. aspiring DJs do
Yes, that's absolutely correct, all professional DJs belong to an elite group that only play unreleased material they were given express written permission to use...

The reason Beatport have all the DJ Charts isn't because they sell music for people to DJ with, its because they want listeners at home to buy the same tunes that all the DJs promo'd before their release.

Not sure why it says "Beatport Pro gives DJs an efficient way to discover and download new music" on their website... I guess its just a place for DJs to buy music outside their elite network of mates that they can play at home or in the car.

Also its odd that when they contacted me to compile a DJ chart for them, they insisted all the music on my list had to be available from their store? Maybe they just wanted a list of tracks I used to DJ 6 months ago before it became illegal for me to do so...

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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 25203Unread post Angus McCarthy
Tue May 07, 2013 9:28 am

markrob wrote:This is from the Beatport web site terms and conditions:
See, this is where it gets really confusing. Right smack on their front page they are pushing "Royalty Free" loops and samples. On that page they repeat lines like Filled with every melody you'll need to build your Saturday night, mainroom floor-filler... and ...a must have in your arsenal to assemble your latest warehouse rumbler.

On the one hand their legal disclaimer says that everything on the site is for private use only, but here they are selling third-party sample packs specifically for use in a live, public setting. It looks like they never thought to differentiate between their own content and the content they are simply acting as brokers for.

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opcode66
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 25217Unread post opcode66
Tue May 07, 2013 3:17 pm

They are PURPOSEFULLY blurring the lines. Trust me on this. Again, they would not sell anything at all if they were actually enforcing the legal text on their site. They have to put that there. But, that isn't the reality of the situation. I would say at least 80% of the tracks sold are used by dj's to play events.
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Re: Question for dub cutters

Post: # 25427Unread post Aussie0zborn
Tue May 14, 2013 6:36 pm

opcode66 wrote: Tell me what the difference is between that and cutting a ONE-OFF DUB PLATE (not a master for duplication). In my mind there is technically no difference.
None at all. Its only a format conversion to your preferred playback format. Whether you put the track on a USB thumb drive, CD-R or lacquer disc it's all the same.

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Steve E.
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Re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 31452Unread post Steve E.
Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:30 pm

I want to cross-reference a statement made in another thread, which has some good comments in it in general on this topic:

http://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4680&p=29719#p28712
concretecowboy71 wrote: In no way is making a record the same as putting a copy on your computer and phone. You are making a mechanical copy of the music and this is clearly prohibited by US copyright law. Whether the copy is sold or given away, you need a license to make this copy. In fact you would need a mechanical license and a master license to create this copy. The person who bought the music in not making the copy, a third party is, who is trying to make money. I feel the views on copyrights here are skewed to rationalize being able to make copies of other peoples music. I have to kick master back to clients if they even contain a sound bite from a movie.

Refer to the Harry Fox Agency for more info on this topic.
He is correct.

While this _obviously_ applies to acetates that are cut with the intention of plating and pressing (that's called "pirating" or "bootlegging"), it applies to dubplates as well, under United States law. I can't speak for individual countries outside of the USA.

I really wish a lawyer could weigh in on this thread and supply more exact language and statutes, because I am a mush-brain. But, I have consulted with lawyers on the issue, and that was the advice I received. In fact, I think there is a recent case on the books, addressing this concern.

The only reason the RIAA allowed blank recordable CDs to be sold for years was because they installed a sort of "music tax" on the sale of special "music CDs", which were the only ones that would record in "audio" mode on standalone CD burners. I don't know why that legal problem went away with computer-based CD burners. Perhaps the fact that we don't usually pay a third party to make our CD-R copies figures in as well. But, receiving money to make a dubplate made of music, without having the licenses to do so, could get someone in big trouble, at least in the USA.

I can't say for certain whether cutters could absolve themselves of all liability by getting their clients to supply some sort of paperwork promising/proving that they have acquired all clearances, or that they take on all liability....something like that. It still seems risky, and I wouldn't want to leave it to the courts to determine my fate, or that of my business and equipment.

I think it is only correct that people who are doing this for any sort of income be educated on the legality of it. And there is plenty of money to be made, of course, cutting dubplates for the artists and labels themselves, with their permission.

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Re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 31455Unread post Steve E.
Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:21 pm

One other thought I have on this: If the growing popularity of this site (and, therefore, record cutting) is any indication, it may soon be in the interest of the music industry to MAKE such one-off-copy licensing more easily available. There's a subject for further discussion.

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Re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 31456Unread post Snakeheadfishlab
Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:42 pm

I concur...


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opcode66
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Re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 31467Unread post opcode66
Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:28 pm

What I sort of giggle to myself about here is that CD's are also made "mechanically". The only difference is the tool used to perform the mechanical transfer. Regardless of if the mechanical transfer represents digital data (pits or no pits) or analog audio waveforms. Records employ a cutting stylus. CD's employ light. They are exactly the same. Each produces a physical copy of the material via a mechanical process that removes material from a substrate in order to encapsulate the material to disc.

So, back to my original assertion. Everybody and their cousin makes backups of their music. Even to CD. I see one-off dubs as no different. Not one stitch.
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Re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 31469Unread post emorritt
Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:58 pm

Cutting a dubplate is technically "fixing" the sound as described by the copyright law. However, what lawsuit enthusiasts like is where someone is making money - a lot - from selling someone's material that isn't theirs for profit. They way I always have seen it is that what I am doing is providing a service that not many people have the ability to provide. Not everyone has a cutting lathe and can make a physical needle-in-groove record, much less one of quality. In the digital age, while there is hard evidence of a revitalization of the vinyl record as a product, it's still an exception more than a rule. If someone downloads something, creates tracks of their own on their computer or other device, etc., then brings it to me to convert the format to a playable record, I'm providing a service. I am not making money off the content I cut, but rather the time, materials and expertise required to make something that the customer can use for whatever purpose. I do not do short runs of many copies of the same thing that a customer will go out and sell for profit. This is what the music police are looking for. One dub at a small cost to a customer who wants it for their jukebox or to DJ with isn't producing enough of a profit to anyone for them to care. Now, if the jukebox in question is in a bar or restaurant - same with DJ's working in clubs - the establishment better have an ASCAP, BMI or SESAC license (or all three), which is required of any public venue where music will be played - live or from a fixed medium. This covers anything played there, including material that has been format converted; you're still hearing the content that was downloaded (hopefully legally) or created as original, in a public venue. Those three organizations take care of public performances from fixed medium or live ("cover band") material. Yes, obviously if you're going to make your own re-issue of an out of print, but still copyrighted album, cut a bunch of discs and then sell them, that's patently copyright infringement. I won't even make two copies of something for a jukebox collector. I tell them to use the disc and if and when it wears out, have me make another at that time. In almost ten years, I haven't had a single request for a re-cut.

Infringement has to happen on a scale that an artist or record company would take notice before lawsuits start flying. However, I do agree with Steve's comment that because of the market for dubs that has emerged in the recent past, there needs to be some sort of means to address format conversion at a reasonable cost. I have licensed things through Harry Fox in the past. For under 500 units the fees were around $60 per title. For a single format conversion something like $5 or $10 would be reasonable. Just my $.02...

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Re: Question for dub cutters (legality)

Post: # 31514Unread post tragwag
Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:33 pm

one thing I've found is in the iTunes license agreement,
"USAGE RULES
(i) You shall be authorized to
use iTunes Products only for personal,
noncommercial use.
(iv) You shall be authorized to burn an audio playlist up to seven times.”

Through this clause, I find it perfectly within the license agreement for a client to purchase a song on iTunes, and commission me to make up to 7 copies for their designated personal use. I have clients sign an agreement that quotes the iTunes agreement, and defines it in terms of our purposes.
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