VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Topics regarding professional record cutting.

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diamone
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VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 31995Unread post diamone
Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:20 pm

So now that we have our land and buildings out in the foothills of Yosemite and a place to put up the media transfer and restoration studio - we're starting to be on the lookout for a DMM lathe so we can be the only one in America offering the service.

Already we're ``the only one offering the service'' in America for the analog to digital transfer of a number of very strange, obscure and long-since-dead audio and video formats - which is what's keeping us above water since everybody and their brother doing records tapes CDs VHS Beta etc etc etc. so we figure if we can keep the ``only one'' thread going in the rest of our operations - we'll be able to have a go at this.

So far we already have a manufacturer east of Sacramento whose been able to make the DMM blanks to spec (of course don't know sonically yet since no lathe - but he says he'll make em for us for the cost of the metal til he gets em perfected - and then it won't be that much more to get the ``real'' ones afterward.

Opcode says he's working on better DMM styli - so once we get a lathe we'll start seeing what's up w that - and then going ahead as we can.

And FYI w my father's funeral settlement I'll be able to afford to have somebody teach me the difference between cutting for DMM and the cutting for lacquer I learned eons ago from Len Horowitz.

Talked to a couple ex DMM guys already and they all say it's not that different except you have to EQ your master for DMM or it will end up overly bright when you are pressing your final product.

Any help wd be appreciated.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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mossboss
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 32082Unread post mossboss
Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:22 am

Hi There
There are already 3 DMM lathes in the states we all know where they are of course Thats the greatest number of DMM lathes in any one single location
However as you rightly said no one is offering a service
The other point that needs to be mentioned are the blanks
I would have thought, the guy offering you copper blanks has very little idea what he is letting himself in for
This is not a platers dream more likely a nightmare, certainly not impossible, they need a dedicated bath due to the additives necessary
Further, blanks need to be cut within hours after they have been made, the alternative is for them to be frozen until they are needed, defrosted up to ambient temperature than straight on the lathe
The above are just a few points for consideration, at the end of the day everything is possible that's for sure,
A DMM available to all would be a great achievement by anyone who can manage it
Good luck with it all
Cheers
Chris

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diamone
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 32090Unread post diamone
Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:49 pm

Well, copper cutting lathes at Gold Base Studios in Hemet. I always thought that was funny all by itself.

And yes I heard about having to freeze blanks in some special kind of moistureless freezer from Marcussen years ago when we were first starting to float this idea (think it was back when Europadisc(?) sold or converted the last commercial DMM in the US).
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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mossboss
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 32098Unread post mossboss
Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:18 pm

Europa disc lathe went to the Scientology people
Never converted
The only other copper cutting lathe of which I am aware of was with the RCA plant cutting masters for the CED video system they produced based on record technology about the same time to Laser Discs
Cheers
Chris

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diamone
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 32099Unread post diamone
Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:24 pm

trouble is - it only runs one speed 450 RPM and the only heads for it are the vertically modulated CED heads used to cut SelectaVision video.

All the old Indy RCA technoheads I know all have a sore spot about DMM cuz they got convinced to trade it off to Telefunken for some other research (that - although formed some of the basis for what would later become CD's - was not much good all by itself) and then they tried to sell DMM back to RCA for a mint as a new AUDIO disc mastering system - so if you ever wondered why there's no RCA DMM cut in house in America in the 80's and 90's - that's why.

Most RCA DMMs were cut in Germany or Japan as imports.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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mossboss
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 32123Unread post mossboss
Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:11 am

You are quite right of course However it was a DMM machine cutting on copper blanks albeit vertical only and with a piezo head if I remember correctly
Still if you consider that there was only 20 odd Neumann DMM machines ever sold or there about's for a place to have 3 in they possession it is already a great achievement
The last VMS 80/82 sold in the USA was originally a DMM machine converted back to lacquer
By the way is there a forum as such where the old techies from the CED plant hang around I am trying to locate a particular fellow who was on the pressing side of things, I want to clarify something with the man Had a polish name like Stravisky or such
Any tips would be welcome
Best
Chris

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diamone
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 32136Unread post diamone
Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:29 pm

@Mossboss
I'm sure Bogantz or Dorren or any one of the old RCA Indy gang would know.
Whether the guy you're looking for is still alive or not remains to be seen.

I remember touring RCA Indy in middle school when they were still testing CED - by this time they'd been able to get 30 mins on a side vs the Feb player's nine and a half - but it still took `em two days (kidding - but it sure seemed like it) because they were still cutting at 45 RPM for 450 RPM playback due to the low bandwidth for those early heads.

I was doing some research to find out if a Westrex head and a Scully lathe could be set up to cut on copper - being there's so many more of `em around - but all the research to date tells me its either not possible or so ridiculously expensive to say it might as well be.

I often wondered if anybody could convert an Ortofon to cut on copper being some of their final heads were designed for CD-4 quadraphonic (although they never got used for that being the experimental designs therefor were in `78 and `79 - long since after which CD-4 had died).
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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TotalSonic
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 33368Unread post TotalSonic
Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:26 pm

If I'm remembering this correctly the formulation for the copper blanks changed about 3 times - mainly because some chemical products would become less available and needed substitutes - and occasionally to make some improvements. By the final years at Europadisk with the last improvement made we no longer needed to refrigerate blanks after they were cut (and as far as I know there never was a "special freezer" - you just need one that can maintain accurate temperature reliably and that does not accumulate moisture of condensation inside of it). I wasn't involved in the chemistry of the plating department though - the people that would know would be Jim Shelton (former owner at Europadisk) and Mario Mendes (who was head of the plating dept at Europadisk - after years at being at CBS prior to that) - but I don't have contact info for them (although I believe Jim is still in upstate New York). Perhaps someone with access to the Toolex/Alpha archives could provide info on the original plating operation specs - but that will likely be very hard to get.

I maintain a list of all the current DMM mastering studios at http://www.totalsonic.net/dmm.htm - you might be able to get info regarding European copper blank sources from them. I believe GZ in Czech Republic makes their own, and there seems to be at least one source in Germany. I figure importing them would be a fairly expensive operation due to their weight though.

One piece of gear that I found invaluable in cutting DMM was the Neumann VAB-84 vertical amplitude limiter - being able to control depth in such a precise manner really helps.

Good luck with your venture! I have to say one of the most awesome playback experiences I've had is playing off of a freshly cut copper reference disc.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 33369Unread post TotalSonic
Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:31 pm

regarding converting an Ortofon or Westrex to cut into copper -my personal opinion is there is really no way you will be able to successfully do that. The SX-82/84 was designed specifically to handle the stringent requirements of this chore - efforts to convert other cutterheads to this will likely involve tons of expense and effort to only break quickly when tested.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

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diamone
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Re: VMS-82/84 wanted to bring DMM back to America.

Post: # 33370Unread post diamone
Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:39 pm

That's the same as I heard from Marcussen's people - that for the last couple of years DMM needed no refrigeration. Which would be nice.

On a different topic - Talk about a waste of technology. I ended up with a doll-record master on a 14-inch DMM - probably 6 or 8 three-inch diameter cuts around the 5-8 inch mark. Craziest thing I ever saw.

RE: Blanks - I figured I'd have to research the formulation and mfg specs and have `em made here - for the sheer expense of importation - even from Gay-Zed as it's pronounced over there.

But I figure I MIGHT be able to get away with it if i end up being the only American made DMM. Made in USA is starting to come back into vogue on a number of products - so I figure by the time my crowdfunding campaign gets me enough funding to get a lathe in the first place - have it shipped back in the States - pay a guy to calibrate it - pay for the R&D into mfging the blanks - seeing if the ortofon head idea is valid or not and a hundred other things - I might get lucky and catch the wave as it crests - especially if the 45 RPM audiophile people are of any consequence - I think CD-4 at 45 on a 180 gram disc on blue or green or red or whatever grainless dye supervinyl and etc etc etc I might have something going.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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