DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

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diamone
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DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34833Unread post diamone
Tue May 05, 2015 12:35 am

So has anybody tried it yet?

Since it is going to be awhile before we are able to get the funding to be the only people to bring DMM back to America - (unless somebody has some inside connections at Gold Base in Hemet where Scientology has three) we were going to put the CD-4 part of CD-4-on-DMM on hold just to see whether or not you could just

cut at 33 for 45 audiophile playback (getting all the top end from half-speed mastering but none of the bass contour effect) and

cut on DMM for the necessary longer sides to fit a 22 min program on one side of a 45 without much loss in quality (or being more than made up for on DMM)

just by itself to see how that came out.

Even accounting for having to tweak the NAB to play back the 15 IPS tape at 11-1/4 (or doing like we were going to do - playback the 15 IPS tape on a 11-1/4 IPS MUZAK deck) - and tweaking the RIAA down so that it would match for 45 playback - none of the DMM houses we checked with (Abbey Road - Gay-Zed, Teldec Schallplatten and everybody else we could think of) won't touch it with a ten foot pole with ANY amount of money because it would take a lathe out of service for anything else.

And the one place that said they WOULD try it - wanted so much money for the mods that - we could have bought the lathe had em ship it over and pay the guy's flight and expenses to come and calibrate it for us once it got here.

So if anybody wants to try it with scraps of tape and unused DMM sides they have leftover - it would be nice to hear - and THEN see if the CD-4 would be viable or not.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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GeorgeZ
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34837Unread post GeorgeZ
Tue May 05, 2015 7:32 am

Hello diamone,

We are able to cut any speed (16/22/33/45) for any playback from our mastering software with all the necessary conversions done automatically. Order test pressings from us with your request clearly specified and supply us 96 or 192 kHz / 24 or 32 bit WAV files with your already prepared CD-4 audio. But there is no chance to do it all-analogue from tapes. Nobody will try to modify analogue paths and make changes to electronic circuits here in GZ. Sorry, but the digital method is the way to go. Or you have to look elsewhere....
Jiri Zita
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic

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diamone
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34844Unread post diamone
Tue May 05, 2015 11:46 am

We'll have to talk on the phone then cuz I spoke to a guy there already and he said

1. There's not a way to slow down the digital output at a lower pitch and slower speed to master at 33 for 45 playback - mastering is real-time only.

2. Same thing with taking down the RIAA curve to match, hence no ability to do 33 mastering for 45 playback according to the engineers there.

3. CD-4 is not like matrix which operates all in the normal range of audio at 20-20KHz. Your engineer said it was impossible because of

A. No CD-4 modulator at GZ (or anyplace else in Europe) and even if you DID find one you would still need FOUR discrete tracks of 192/32 to then pass through a modulation unit in order to demodulate upon playback.

B. If you FOUND one - IT would have to be tweaked as well since it's built for Half-Speed-Mastering and not 33-for-45, so the carrier wave generator would have to be adjusted along with the RIAA.

C. No way to pre-modulate the CD-4 into a 192/32 file and get an acceptable sample rate for subsequent demodulating.

D. 30-50 KHz modulated CD-4 signal means at ten samples, you would need a MINIMUM sample rate of 300-500 KHz and preferably 3000-5000 KHz (a hundred samples) in order to create enough of the carrier wave to demodulate properly - and probably wouldn't even work then because the demodulator is used to a continuous tone.

E. Digital CD-4 would be like your FM radio or cell phone carrier wave only being there 1% or 10% of the time.

which is why I posted on here for.

Look at my other CD-4 DMM 33-for-45 playback threads for further info.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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GeorgeZ
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34868Unread post GeorgeZ
Wed May 06, 2015 8:28 am

diamone wrote: 1. There's not a way to slow down the digital output at a lower pitch and slower speed to master at 33 for 45 playback - mastering is real-time only.

2. Same thing with taking down the RIAA curve to match, hence no ability to do 33 mastering for 45 playback according to the engineers there.
I repeat again: We have the ability to cut any speed for any playback and we DID it several times. The RIAA curve is implemented in our software, so there is no need to do it by Neumann circuits. Therefore the software does all the calculations (incl. RIAA, VCA, possible distortion compensations etc.) and the output signal is completely prepared for amplification and cutting. This is the reason why it is much easier and cheaper here to cut from digital files than from analogue tapes. Either you are referencing very old informations from our side or you were talking with another plant/studio.
diamone wrote: A. No CD-4 modulator at GZ (or anyplace else in Europe) and even if you DID find one you would still need FOUR discrete tracks of 192/32 to then pass through a modulation unit in order to demodulate upon playback.
B. If you FOUND one - IT would have to be tweaked as well since it's built for Half-Speed-Mastering and not 33-for-45, so the carrier wave generator would have to be adjusted along with the RIAA.
True, we have no CD-4 modulator or demodulator. Maybe in the past we presented you our statement to a complete (pre)mastering process for CD-4. We have no time or resources to do it now. According to our lead developer, it would be possible to do all the process by the software (I've found some papers about CD-4 written by Lou Dorren in 2007/2008), but we have more important tasks to do for more than 2 years ahead. My actual offer is only for cutting and you have to supply properly prepared digital files.
diamone wrote: C. No way to pre-modulate the CD-4 into a 192/32 file and get an acceptable sample rate for subsequent demodulating.
D. 30-50 KHz modulated CD-4 signal means at ten samples, you would need a MINIMUM sample rate of 300-500 KHz and preferably 3000-5000 KHz (a hundred samples) in order to create enough of the carrier wave to demodulate properly - and probably wouldn't even work then because the demodulator is used to a continuous tone.
E. Digital CD-4 would be like your FM radio or cell phone carrier wave only being there 1% or 10% of the time.
My "basic" knowledge about digital processing tells me IT IS POSSIBLE to store modulated CD-4 signals into a 192/32 file and cut from it without problems. Our software can import 192/32 files, work with double precision floating-point numbers and use internal oversampling up to 768 kHz for measurements of geometrical parameters of simulated grooves. But for the real cutting, all the pre-processed signals are sent to our DA converters at the source sampling frequency. The PrismSound Orfeus converters used for cutting in GZ can work in a 192 kHz / 24 bit mode and it is sufficient even for the most audiophile titles.

Regards,
Jiri Zita
Premastering manager
GZ Vinyl / GZ Media Lodenice
Czech Republic

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diamone
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34869Unread post diamone
Wed May 06, 2015 9:16 am

GeorgeZ wrote:ither you are referencing very old informations from our side
2007
GeorgeZ wrote:I've found some papers about CD-4 written by Lou Dorren in 2007/2008)
Which is what we're going off of when we were first trying to consider doing this seven years ago.
GeorgeZ wrote:...you have to supply properly prepared digital files. My "basic" knowledge about digital processing tells me IT IS POSSIBLE to store modulated CD-4 signals into a 192/32 file and cut from it without problems.
A good test would be to take - say - an FM logging or instrumentation tape (e.g. flight recorder) that's around the same frequency - try to cut that - and then see if the instrumentation or logging reader can read the data off the disc instead of the tape.

I'd have to read his research and see if his math is right, since at 192/32 you'd only get around 6 samples of the low end of the carrier wave (30KHz) and only around 3 samples of the higher end of the carrier wave (50KHz)
GeorgeZ wrote:Our software can import 192/32 files, work with double precision floating-point numbers and use internal oversampling up to 768 kHz.
That's no different than everybody else.

Trouble with oversampling is - it doesn't give you any increase in resolution - it just looks at the same set of numbers more than once. Meaning all oversampling does is increase the bit accuracy of what there is, e.g. you can't store full-bandwidth video in an audio spectrum - which is what this is, i.e. according to most methods of calculation - the math is simply not there.

Of course, as I said earlier, if you can point me to the digital sampling and bit depth research to which you are referring that states that a 30-50KHz carrier wave can be stored in a 192/32 file and then subsequently demodulated off the disc with acceptable quality - then that would be different.
GeorgeZ wrote:The PrismSound Orfeus converters used for cutting in GZ can work in a 192 kHz / 24 bit mode and it is sufficient even for the most audiophile titles.
All of which work within the normal band of audio spectrum - which this does not. Again, I'd welcome a reference to whatever research to which you are referring, but barring that, the math does not support it.

And then there's the lead time....
GeorgeZ wrote:We have more important tasks to do for more than 2 years ahead.
...which although shorter than the original quote of five years back in 2007 is still insufficient.
GeorgeZ wrote:My actual offer is only for cutting and you have to supply properly prepared digital files.
That's the same as everybody else: send us your pre-mastered files in the correct format and we can cut it. If that were possible, we could have done that at any one of the DMM plants around the world, all of whom say in addition to providing two-channel stereo-ready files already pre-mastered - say we have to understand that they have no way to QC the final result as they have no demodulator, modifications cost a mint, 2-5 year lead time, etc etc etc).

The other thing is - it may be possible to encode a static 30-KHz to 50 KHz sine wave at that frequency and recover it on laboratory equipment - but not if that carrier is completely changing second-over-second with modulated program material.

So - sorry - but unless you have something different than Teldec or EMI or everybody else - and unless your research on digital sampling methods allows for some other way - it's not possible to encode CD-4 digitally unless the sample rate can be multiplied at the minimum of a hundredfold.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34902Unread post markrob
Thu May 07, 2015 10:03 am

Hi,

I'm not sure where you are getting the numbers that indicate that you need 100-200X sampling rate to encode/decode CD4. AFIK, the total analog bandwidth is in the 50 Khz range. The FM is narrow band. I've been playing around with this using Flowstone to develop a DSP based CD4 decoder. I was able to capture a CD4 disk flat with no RIAA filter at 96Khz 16 bits. I separate the base band audio from the FM using two 64 tap FIR filters low pass and high pass filters. I then demodulate the resulting FM without much trouble. Its right on the boarder at 96Khz (192Khz would be much better). I have the entire decoder developed with the exception of the ANRS. It runs in realtime on a PC using about 9% CPU on a older quad core intel chipset. I haven't done much work lately for several reasons:

1. I don't have any really clean CD4 LP's here. Most of the LP's I've collected to date are iffy.
2. My audio interface is limited to 96 Khz
3. I don't have a good pickup to extract the audio from these LP's (I'm currently using an inexpensive Ed Saunders CD4 pickup that uses a cheap AT cartridge with a stylus of unknown geometry).
4. Since my move, I don't have a surround monitoring setup.

I can post a short wav file of the source material and the raw decoded FM if you are interested (Lr - Lf and Rr - Rf). The FM demod I used is implemented based on the paper attached. Also attached is the MathCAD worksheet I used to develop the FIR lowpass (the high pass is similar). You can see its much steeper that the analog filter used in the JVC decoder. I've also developed an IIR FM/PF de-emphasis filter using MathCAD.
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diamone
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34907Unread post diamone
Thu May 07, 2015 11:27 am

markrob wrote:Hi,

I'm not sure where you are getting the numbers that indicate that you need 100-200X sampling rate to encode/decode CD4.
Lou Dorren's paper from the early-to-mid-2000's (Don't have the 2007 paper handy - just browsed it at the AES library.
markrob wrote:AFIK, the total analog bandwidth is in the 50 Khz range.
True.
markrob wrote:The FM is narrow band.
Being only 20 KHz deviation instead of 200 like on FM radio.
markrob wrote:I've been playing around with this using Flowstone to develop a DSP based CD4 decoder.
One or two other guys are also experimenting with that - but as they say on SNL - not quite ready for prime time play just yet.
markrob wrote:I was able to capture a CD4 disk flat with no RIAA filter at 96Khz 16 bits. I separate the base band audio from the FM using two 64 tap FIR filters low pass and high pass filters. I then demodulate the resulting FM without much trouble. It's right on the boarder at 96Khz (192Khz would be much better)
I have my trusty Aloha From Hawaii Elvis Limited Edition 140 gram LP (looks like an original Dynagroove except for the black label that says Special Products - and I can't even get a straight capture that can be demodulated at 192/32 nevermind 96/24.

I keep getting all this ``off-station'' noise everytime I try to demodulate straight. But then I'm not using any bandpass filters or anything either - and just trying to run the resulting flat transfer through a vintage JVC 4DD5 demodulator - just as if the cartridge was transmitting it to the demodulator instead of (in this case) a DVD line out feed attenuated to match the mag level from line level - and all I get is all kinds of spits and sputters when the LP played on a normal phonograph plays fine.

It kind of reminds me of trying to take an old 44.056 KHz F-1 format tape (or the non-Dolby AC3 or DTS or whatever PCM digital audio tracks off an NTSC laserdisc which are the same format) and trying to burn it raw onto a DVD - and then trying to play the DVD back through the F-1.

It's the same as trying to take an old 16 bit 44.1 KHz 1630 U-Matic digital audio tape which uses the same technology of storing the 2-channel stereo PCM feed into the video bandwidth of a videotape - trying to burn it raw onto a CD and expecting it to play. That don't work either.
markrob wrote:I have the entire decoder developed with the exception of the ANRS.
I'll have to find his PM on the quad board because one of the guys there got the discrete ANRS noise reduction circuit off the 4-channel quadraphonic cassette deck that failed - and presumably was able to at least noise-reduce a CD-4 feed or (with two) a JVC 4-track quad cassette feed via software - even though he kept having problems with demodulation off a digital feed same as me.
markrob wrote:It runs in realtime on a PC using about 9% CPU on a older quad core intel chipset. I haven't done much work lately for several reasons:

1. I don't have any really clean CD4 LP's here. Most of the LP's I've collected to date are iffy.
2. My audio interface is limited to 96 Khz
3. I don't have a good pickup to extract the audio from these LP's (I'm currently using an inexpensive Ed Saunders CD4 pickup that uses a cheap AT cartridge with a stylus of unknown geometry).
4. Since my move, I don't have a surround monitoring setup.
Ah. I hear yah on the `moving' part. We got out here in December and with my ex-foster-dad- I live with and take care of still in care after a month postop on his back surgery - me and my uncle are STILL unpacking and putting stuff away.

I looked around Amazon and eBay - there's a few CD-4 copies of AFH on the black label and pressed onto the stiffer (non-Dynaflex) vinyl that was always terrible for CD-4 demodulation. Same with the Doors Greatest Hits on either the red-and-black 80's label - also on stiff vinyl - or on the light red almost pink label of the late 70's. Same with the Judy Collins Colors of the Day or the Bread GH on 80's or early 90's thick-vinyl pressings. I can't tell you how many mint-condition period CD-4 pressings don't demodulate worth a hoot even on the best gear straight outa the wrapper.

You just have to ask the sellers if their pressing has the little quarter-inch groove guard around the edge or if it goes halfway through the first song on a gentle slope (which you don't want). Most of those are going for a couple of dollars since nobody knows how hard it is to find either of those two (or anything else for that matter) on a non Dynaflex-esque pressing.

But maybe instead of a Saunders you can get like a Stanton 780DQ or ortofon equivalent or something. They're all over eBay and are supposed to be some of the top-of-the-line either New Old Stock or rebuilt _(I have two NOS I use exceedingly sparingly).
markrob wrote:I can post a short wav file of the source material and the raw decoded FM if you are interested (Lr - Lf and Rr - Rf).
PM me for my email to send it that way.
markrob wrote:The FM demod I used is implemented based on the paper attached. Also attached is the MathCAD worksheet I used to develop the FIR lowpass (the high pass is similar). You can see its much steeper that the analog filter used in the JVC decoder. I've also developed an IIR FM/PF de-emphasis filter using MathCAD.
Have to spend some time reading that then.

P.S. As far as I got was the ΔΣ modulation and was getting all kinds of crap in the feed.
But then again A) I'm not a software engineer or computer programmer and B) I've been having to squeeze this in between caring for my ex-foster dad, moving and unpacking and a whole host of other mess.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34908Unread post markrob
Thu May 07, 2015 11:57 am

Hi,

I'm using the Best of the Doors CD4 LP for my testing.

I had a JVC decoder that I picked up off of ebay. I never got it to work with anything. It needed to be gone through and I never got around to it. I ended up selling back on eBay when we downsized in front of the move.

I have the ANRS patents and I've looked at the circuitry for the JVC decoder. All of the work I've done to model it was based on that info. Not sure there is any way to know if you have it correct.

It would be interesting to see if I could create a CD4 encoder and send you the file to see if it decodes on a working vintage unit.

I was also looking to capture at half speed to avoid my lack of a high quality pickup.

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diamone
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34925Unread post diamone
Thu May 07, 2015 7:56 pm

markrob wrote:I'm using the Best of the Doors CD4 LP for my testing.
Like I said - that could be a c***shoot. Real early pressings on the green butterfly label are T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E and the ones that feel as if they were pressed on Superflex or Dynaflex etc - are worse than that.

If you can get one on the black Quadradisc label - they're a little better as well as being considerably thicker - but the best ones you are going to find are either on the all-red label (watch out for thin pressings tho - and check for the little groove guard around the edge vs the kind that runs halfway thru the first song) - and SOME of the ones that are on the red circle label with the black overlaid on the top
markrob wrote:I had a JVC decoder that I picked up off of eBay. I never got it to work with anything. It needed to be gone through and I never got around to it. I ended up selling back on eBay when we downsized in front of the move.
Ah. Well there's a few WORKING ones out there now you could try - or build yourself a CD-4 50 which has always been the Holy Grail of CD-4 hardware. So many of the onboard demodulators (inside of receivers - and a handful of turntables) are mediocre at BEST by comparison. And like you said - your Saunders clone cartridge and stylus is the best you can find - but that's not going to give you that great of a reference either. Look around for a Stanton 780DQ or the Ortofon equivalent. It'll be worth your effort totally.
markrob wrote:I have the ANRS patents and I've looked at the circuitry for the JVC decoder. All of the work I've done to model it was based on that info. Not sure there is any way to know if you have it correct.
I dunno if he still works there or not - but you could call up MRL (what became of STL test tape company) http://home.comcast.net/~mrltapes and see if one of the old time engineers leftover from the STL days still has his master reel of the ANRS calibration tape used to run off the JVC quadraphonic 4-track single-direction (and 8-channel dual direction - gave rise to the 8 channel Tascam cassette portastudio) calibration tapes.

I probably have a cassette - but Lord knows where it is though in a 12 by 15 by 18 storage.
markrob wrote:It would be interesting to see if I could create a CD4 encoder...
Modulator - as the other unit is known as a demodulator - even though it also by necessity has to produce the same matrices as in SQ EV and QS.
markrob wrote:...and send you the file to see if it decodes on a working vintage unit.
Yeh - be interesting. Just remember - every demodulator is going to be expecting a flat input at mag level - since it also performs the RIAA itself - so I'd have to find a good attenuator to take it back down from line level to mag level before piping it into the deck.
markrob wrote:I was also looking to capture at half speed to avoid my lack of a high quality pickup.
Being up until the very last year of CD-4 (1979 into 1980) all titles had to be cut half speed because otherwise it would blow up the cutterhead with such a high and constant tone - that only works if you STILL have a compatible cartridge with a properly aligned nude square shank hyper elliptic stylus and the correct ultra-low capacitance cables to pipe it through.

Otherwise - even if you end up capturing it at half speed - you'll still get the same terrible bass-contour effect that plagued all but the very last CD-4s that were mastered at 22-1/2 RPM for 33 playback (that's the six Ortofon test cutterheads I talk about in the other thread).

Also - even if you found an all-metal CD-4 mother - whose grooves would not be able to be destroyed (as much as) a vinyl pressing made from it - you'd still get that spit-and-sputtery or `sandpapery' sound you are probably getting as it is.

Look up Greg Bogantz in North Carolina. He was one of the original CD-4 engineers along with Lou Dorren - who's been sick and pretty much noncommunicado the past couple years - even on the quad board - and see if he has any of the CD-4 (and especially UD-4) engineering that wasn't widely published - as well as the ANRS calibration tapes - or knows if any of the guys still have any.

Also remember the 22-1/2 RPM for 33 playback (i.e 2/3rds speed) was the best they could get in those days - and that was after CD-4 had already gone through its' death throes - and you STILL had bass contour effect just a lot less than you did at half speed. Guys were still trying for 3/4 speed CD-4 cutting - but like I said Ortofon pulled the plug early in 1980.

But since it's only a little faster than the 2/3rds captures guys were doing a few years ago with just normal elliptical styli (still need the 50KHz cartridge tho and ultra low capacitance cables) - maybe you could do a 25-for-33 capture with what you have and get something usable. That's the same percentage (roughly) as mastering at 33 for 45 playback. Capture flat like you are doing - then recalculate your deviated RIAA curve down 25% and see if you get any better results with your cloned cartridge and various other hardware. That just might be enough to still keep your top end without messing up the bass anymore than it already is from being mastered half speed.

I understand a lot of the guys are picking up the Delta LT 1010 sound card/interface units off eBay for a pittance and doing great with those and their various CD-4 capture experiments. Go on the QQ forums and see if any of the engineering guys there can give you any pointers.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34970Unread post markrob
Sun May 10, 2015 11:04 am

Hi,

If you PM me with your email address and give me some place to store them (Goggle Drive, etc.), I have some short samples of the raw CD4 capture of the Doors LP (32 bit 96Khz) and the output from my digital FM demodualtor (16 bit 96Kz) of the raw audio. They are about 20 seconds in length and 10 to 20 Mb in size (they seem to be too big to upload here).

Mark

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 34972Unread post diamone
Sun May 10, 2015 2:26 pm

markrob wrote:Goggle Drive, etc.
Goggle is for bozzers and doppers. I use Dropbox when I have to.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48561Unread post diamone
Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:55 pm

So - two years on. What else have you come up with in 33-for-45 playback and/or mastering for CD-4?

The ANRS can be tested for accuracy from the 4-track quadraphonic JVC cassette deck from 1974 shows up occasionally on the various electronics museum-excess resale sites (instead of eBay/Amazon - I saw one go by for $250 over the summer) - and you can occasionally get one of the promo titles for it (Jesus Christ Superstar brown album double cassette set being the easiest to get besides the demo tape it came with).

I just re-inquired about the DMM 33-for 45 at every DMM house on the planet over the summer of 2017 - including with your own engineer staff at GZ - and all I got was the same as I always get - an info-and-referral kid doing recitations of frequently asked questions off your website that had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

When I asked for a engineering supervisor, a slightly older kid got on the line and proceeded to start in reciting the same answers to irrelevant FAQs - and when I asked to speak to the chief lathe engineer, he was busy and never got back to me with anything that was applicable to what I was talking about - since the only thing I ever got back was the same pre-typed list of answers to irrelevant FAQs I always get.

We repeated the same thing across all the other DMM houses in Europe and Scandanavia and got similar info and referral kids and their supervisors reciting the same irrelevant answers to FAQs off their websites I didn't ask about - and similarly their chief engineers were also busy and never got back to me either with any information other than the usual.

Meaning
1. We accept these source formats.
2. We cut with this gear only in this fashion only.
3. We cut at these speeds in real-time only.
4. We have an X year waitlist for that.
5. We have no ability or interest in cutting out-of-format product.
6. We have no ability to QC the result of the cut which is against company policy.
7. If that doesn't work for you, sorry but we can't help you please go online and research other companies who might be able to assist you in a further capacity.

Which they all say (pointing to each other).

It seems we are never able to talk to any man who understands the technology and how it can be applied to the modern world of DMM mastering - so we keep getting referred around and around and around a circle of all the DMM houses - and within each house we keep getting referred up to assistant engineers (never the chief R&D guys) and back down to I&R kids over and over and over.

These guys who have limited or no idea of what we are talking about - incessantly refer us back up to their assistant engineers - who refer right back down to generic I&R staff - whose ability is limited to reciting their webpage - which has no relevant information - who incessantly refer back up to their assistant engineers - who refer right back down or out to other houses and start over and start over and start over around and around.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48564Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:42 pm

Where did you find a DMM facility in Scandinavia?

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48565Unread post diamone
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 pm

I lose track. I emailed all the cutting houses in Europe and Scandanavia and I thought I got a reply back from somebody in one of the Stockholm Copenhagen or Oslo suburbs who had one that got very little use IIRC it wasn't one of the major houses like all the others.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Aussie0zborn
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48569Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:47 am

Your project is certainly interesting but makes no economic sense for anybody to take it on. Modifying equipment for a one-off project is a bit risky and time consuming. The commercial reality is that anyone that has such a facility needs to keep it working.

Let us know if it works out.

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diamone
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48571Unread post diamone
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am

Aussie0zborn wrote:Your project makes no economic sense.
Neither does anything else in the archiving/preservation/niche-market world.

Normal Super45Sonic or Half Speed Mastered or 180/200G vinyl or special grainless dye color vinyl or picturediscs/shaped discs etc for $117.95 a pop?

Obscure bands nobody ever heard of being struck from a quarter-inch safety bumped up to a half inch 2 track 1:1 on 15 IPS open reel for $500 a pop because that's the only thing producers can get the rights for cheaply?

$250 apiece for one-off Gould-Moulded Cylinders and Edison Diamond Discs?

$400 for a one-off or one-run 78 RPM picture disc (Gutzky-style)?

$300 for a set of digital Optigan discs and $500 for a newly cut set of reproductions that play on the original organ - along with new beats and songs?

$100 a disc ($750 a set incl shipping) for modern stars recording on e.g. Mattel-O-Phone German Juniorfon or Remco Talking Kennedy Airport?

You KNOW NONE of these people even made their R&D money back nevermind made any money through product sales anymore than the audiophile tape or any other niche-market guys.

Yet they still find their equally-niche manufacturers and funding sources to pay for it - none of whom are presumably worried about whether it's commercially viable or not or nobody would make them.

All these guys are the same types of guys I grew up around. They made their money elsewhere (or got financiers and philanthropists) and never had to worry about whether a venture was commercially viable or not.

All I'm trying to do is find some in the new generation - because all the original generation is either elderly in a nursing home with no ability to do anything anymore or passed on and everybody else is only interested in the money.

A lot of especially 78 and transcription dealers I used to know before they died were the same way before Nauck's auctions came out - and they have millions of leftovers every month that nobody cares about that they should just ship to Archives.org in San Francisco or Manhattan and be done with it.

A few of these guys w the proper gear - even unused for years in a basement or storage locker someplace - preferably w no family or friends or anybody else interested in taking it over - which is how we got almost everything else here - would be ideal.

We came close several years ago right when we were forming our nonprofit. One of the Talking Book Libraries for the Blind had one in the late 80s or early 90s that was un-converted back to lacquer.

Once vinyl crashed the first time, they bought it as a test to see whether or not they could resurrect the 4 RPM speed they tried out in 1966 but couldn't get a decent enough fidelity on a 10-inch disc with the electronics of the period - and they had it for a few years just doing tests on it and nothing else.

After the talking book cassettes had gotten decent improvements, and then the digital cartridges came out - there was no more need for talking book vinyl of ANY speed - so it had just sat there in the basement for something like 20 years.

Like in every other business - the new bean counter kids were just looking at ways to clear out space from old equipment and materials (Help Me Obi-Wan) to put up other offices etc.

Since these kids didn't even know what this was FOR nevermind how to USE it - they were just going to GIVE it to us to save money having to pay to haul it all out of there and dispose of it if we could roust the people and truck to bring it out from back East.

We came very close to doing that until some hip hop producer paid the Government $150K cash money on the barrelhead hauled it to his house and had it converted back to lacquer to put back into production.

We lost out on a Scully lacquer cutter from APH in Louisville the same way.

After it was gone, since it was too expensive to ship tons of copper blanks anywhere in a refrigerated truck - at least somebody had sense enough to turn in all the blanks to get the copper off, sent the stainless steel plates off to get re-melted for other things - and then instead of just throwing all the diamond styli out - they sold em to the other DMM houses or else to the Scientologists who had three by then.

So I'm fully aware that we will probably have to end up buying one and then paying again to have it re-converted back to DMM - and then find a local mfgr that can do the blanks - and diamond styli - and modifications on the system etc etc etc.

So crowdfunding for that could work too except we don't even have a website for the nonprofit yet because of no volunteer that's programming savvy and no money to pay a guy in the commercial sense to do it - and same thing w crowdfunders.

I figure once all that's in place we could do the reverse of what everybody else is doing - i.e. take ALL the audiophile work everybody else hates doing anyway bec of the meticulous nature of the work vs just slapping anything on a lacquer any which way like they do now (club singles, rock n roll, heavy metal etc) that they churn out 24-7 like automatons - and then maybe that would start paying for itself later on.

As you read earlier in the thread I also want to get into preserving in-house non-commercial background music and in addition to preserving them digitally - reproducing them in their original formats (many of them 16 RPM 22-1/2 RPM or 24 RPM which means I could do 16-for-22 and tweak a little bit from 16.66666 to 16.875 or 12.5 for 16.666).

Same thing with 8 RPM and 16 RPM talking books for the blind where the original tape masters are lost deteriorated due to age and improper storage or destroyed - and that's not commercially viable either.

Meaning unlike many of you - I am not interested in making money from any of this. I just want access to the material - a lathe that's not doing anything else a.t.m. which doesn't have to be continuously pressed into commercial service everytime there's an overload and the audience who will appreciate it.

The last one we have already from notices posted in the other forums - and we MAY have access to the materials with the number of guys that have mint condition unplayed copies of the original pressings in lieu of the master tapes or monaural mixdowns.

That's not a commercially viable venture either. But don't feel bad. Commercially-oriented people who need to eat and non-commercially-oriented people whose priorities are expressing their ideas regardless of complexity or cost have never had anything in common as long as I been alive - and probably a lot longer than that if you talk to most of the guys I trained under.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48572Unread post Aussie0zborn
Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:11 pm

I take it you mean to say you found a VMS82 DMM lathe.
I can't imagine why you hesitated to pick it up while it was being offered to you, especially when it was free.
I think you're somewhat confused... if it was built as a DMM lathe which the VMS82 was, it is incorrect to say "un-converted back to lacquer" because it never started out as a lacquer cutting lathe.
Let's call a spade a spade.... you will never find one. I would go the digital route as Jiri already suggested.
Good luck with your project. I might lock this topic now.

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diamone
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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 48573Unread post diamone
Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:27 pm

Aussie0zborn wrote:I take it you mean to say you found a VMS82 DMM lathe.
I can't imagine why you hesitated to pick it up while it was being offered to you, especially when it was free.
Because as stated above - we were beaten to the punch by somebody who had a closer affiliation with LOC and AFB than we did and it went back into production. Same with the APH lathe.
Aussie0zborn wrote:I think you're somewhat confused... if it was built as a DMM lathe which the VMS82 was, it is incorrect to say "un-converted back to lacquer" because it never started out as a lacquer cutting lathe.
(shrug) Being most of those WERE converted to lacquer - this one at LOC sat there unused for decades until we got beaten to the punch over it.
Aussie0zborn wrote:You will never find one. I would go the digital route as Jiri already suggested.
And then as previously stated - that would kill the whole purpose of mastering from analog to analog like a few of the 45 audiophile groups still do for lacquer. Like I said - none of their projects are commercially viable either.
Aussie0zborn wrote:Good luck with your project. I might lock this topic now.
(shrug)
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 55337Unread post diamone
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:32 pm

Three years on and before the lacquer plant fire we got our STEREO LACQUER version of the 33 for 45 tests back - sent them around - and everybody thinks they are marvelous - meaning we might be able to go forward with the DMM version and then the CD-4 DMM version once the coronavirus is over.

We cut a two-disc set from the analog master and another two-disc set from the 24/96 transfers made therefrom.

The first test was from the quarter-inch 15 IPS stereo mixdown album master from the 70s by our church choir/folk band who cut a record to raise money to fix the roof.

The original mixdown engineer made two masters at the same time - one with the pre-mastering treatment for LP and one without for cassette - so we used the one without.

Cutting engineers were able to transpose both the NAB curve for the tape as well as the RIAA curve for the disc.
That took a couple months by itself.

We were all worried about the difference between 11-1/4 IPS and 15 and the difference between 33.3333333 and 45 or 33.33333 and 45.45 not being the same but it seems it wasn't an issue after all.

The guy in the U.K that cut it for us (requested anonymity) did so on spec because he thought as we did that it was something odd and new and different. He reminded us that the difference between the U.S. and U.K.cutting speeds had been tolerated by audiophiles for decades:

A 11.25 vs 15 = 0.75
B 33.33 vs 45.45 = 0.73340 (UK)
C 33.33 vs 45.00 = 0.74074 (US)
Difference between B and C ~ 0.01
and
1 77.92 vs 78.26 = 0.00436344....
2 45.45 vs 45.00 = 0.01
3 33.33 vs 33.75 = 0.0125
Difference between 1, 2 and 3 ~ 0.01

To maintain the exact 75% ratio - if the 15 IPS master were
run at 11-1/4 IPS - the disc would have to be cut at 33.75 RPM.

Since even classical 45 RPM audiophile Super Sonic series LPs cut in Europe at 45.45 RPM
have been purchased, played and enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of U.S. and Japanese
and everyplace else audiophiles for decades, without the use of a strobe disc - he assured
me that if audiophiles can't tell between 45.45 and 45.00 or 77.92 and 78.26 then the same
would hold true of a cut that if everything was exact would have been made at 33.75 RPM
instead of 33.33.

He also assured me that even the European audiophiles wouldn't be able to tell either
even if it was cut at 33.33 and played back in Europe at their standard of 45.45.

For the digital cut from the file, of course, whether we were cutting in the U.S. or as we
did in the U.K. - the master playback parameters could very easily be adjusted to the exact
74.074% required for U.S. 45 RPM playback or 73.340% required for U.K. 45.45 RPM playback
without the need for deviating the RIAA from its' original 75% curve.

It's been in the hands of reviewers since mid-January so if further reviews come back and
people start writing in that they can tell the difference (we included a DVD-A with the 24/96
file we used for the second experiment) then he's also prepared to have a custom strobe disc
made and imprinted around the edge of the label.

Presumably if this catches on in the niche audiophile market - if we decide to cut from digital -
he could very easily tweak the RIAA down from 75% to the 74.074% or 73.340% to render the
33 for 45 playback exact. But he doesn't think it's going to be necessary.

If that is in fact the case, then once the COVID-19 is past - we could just have the 75% custom
RIAA units made and ship them to wherever we can get a good cutting deal and then press them
wherever we want (RTI maybe that did the 180/200G pressings) and just do the normal 33 for 45
you could do almost at home.

If we get enough of the philanthropic funding that various people have indicated was possible -
then we may try the DMM version of the digital since no commercial DMM house would be able
to stop normal production runs to ditz with this. But they have all said that a simple RIAA rack
mount bypass unit shipped in and connected simply to the system would not be an issue.

And if THAT flies like I said, even though the original 2-inch 16-track master has long since gone,
since we have the original half-inch 4-track submix from 1974 from which the cassette and stereo
LP masters were made - he has one of the last remaining CD-4 Quadulators as well as enough of
Lou Dorren's research papers to possibly be able to build a ~75% version of the half-speed version
that exists.

After reviewing other DMM research - he also says as I surmised that the 33-for-45 cutting should
either minimize or completely eliminate the 30KHz chatter from a DMM head. But time will tell.

Hopefully that will lead to the realization of the Background Music Preservation Project from all
the e.g. Seeburg and Rowe and Allied Artists and all the other 16 RPM material that we may
have to do our tests on lacquer first once the plant is rebuilt or other lacquer people take over.

His lacquer Neumann also runs at 16 RPM so we may start our tests with that next year.
2 Kinds of Men/Records: Low Noise & Wide Range. LN is mod. fidelity, cheap, & easy. WR is High Fidelity & Abrasive to its' Environment. Remember that when you encounter a Grumpy Engineer. (:-D)

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Re: DMM 33 mastering for 45 playback

Post: # 55339Unread post flozki
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:32 am

looking forward to the results.

concerning the speed.
not sure when this 45 RPM audiophile Super Sonic series LPs came out.
but i guess not before the 80ies. also i could not find any infos. who produced that stuff.

but the chance is very high that it was cut on a vms80 /vms82 or on one off the vms70'ies beefed up with a
technics sp02 or a denon motor.

so the 33.33 / 45 is not an issue. and most off the time its also not an issue as long as you dont over lay the 2 files in your computer...

so if you do the cuts on a dmm lathe. it will be rock solid 45.00 rpm no correction needed.
it was only the case with lyrec snycho motor.

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