DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

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EmAtChapterV
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DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26463Unread post EmAtChapterV
Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:25 am

I've been experimenting with replicating vinyl on my own using silicone molds and casting resin. Here are my results thus far:

http://imgur.com/a/6biJN#6
Has anyone else tried this?

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chaosbc
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26473Unread post chaosbc
Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:53 pm

I didn't try so far but I plan to in the future.
You used polyurrethan resin don't you?
Did you managed to cast Both sides?
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49941863@N04/sets/72157632396669506/

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markrob
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26474Unread post markrob
Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:09 pm

Hi,

Nice work. Your results are very similar to what I was able to accomplish using the same method. Generally good sounding with some pops due to voids. Did you use a vacuum pump to de-gass the mixture? I was using the Smooth-On brand (I'll have to look up the formulation of the silicone mould and casting resin if you are interested as I can't remember what I used right now). I also used the silicone mould to try out a cast ice version and it worked about as well as the link posted some time ago.

Mark

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26476Unread post EmAtChapterV
Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:38 pm

markrob wrote:Hi,

Nice work. Your results are very similar to what I was able to accomplish using the same method. Generally good sounding with some pops due to voids. Did you use a vacuum pump to de-gass the mixture? I was using the Smooth-On brand (I'll have to look up the formulation of the silicone mould and casting resin if you are interested as I can't remember what I used right now). I also used the silicone mould to try out a cast ice version and it worked about as well as the link posted some time ago.

Mark
I did use a vacuum hand pump to de-gas - it's in one of the photos. The downside is it only pulls about 16 in/Hg, where 29 is recommended. The silicone mould is Oomoo 30, and the resin is Task 3. (Task 4 is better for this job, but there wasn't any available from the local supplier.)

I only did the one side - I'm still trying to figure out the logistics of centering two halves of a mold and injecting resin into the space between them without major air bubbles. First things first will be getting a bubble-free, silent one-sided "pressing".

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markrob
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26477Unread post markrob
Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:54 pm

Hi,

I used Oomoo 30 for the mould as well. For the resin, IIRC, I used the task 15 as it has a very fast cure time. My thinking was that this would be best if you wanted to make a short run of a few discs (I was also looking at the economics of this process). You have to work fast with when using this version. I have a Welch vacuum pump and I used it to de-gas the individual components before pouring. This seemed to work best for me, especially, with the fast setting resin. I never considered trying a two sided casting. I'd love to see your results if you go down that path. I stopped playing with this method some time ago, but I do think it has merit once all of the details are worked out. I went down the Cook Microfusion press direction but I have not had time to get that under control either. I think that has the best chance of working in a DIY desktop small run environment.

Mark

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26478Unread post EmAtChapterV
Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:15 pm

I tried some Task 9 several months ago, but swore off fast-setting resins after a batch set up while I was attempting to pour it. It's an exothermic chemical reaction; it burned my hand and melted the mixing cup while I was holding it. Scary!

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rsimms3
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26483Unread post rsimms3
Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:57 pm

Thanks for the thread, I've wanted to do this for a while since I heard about it. Your thread got me to looking and here's an interesting article that describes making your own pressure chamber along with pour techniques to get a high quality cast with few air bubbles. I think it applies to this type casting, but I am just now reading up on the topic.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Bubble-Free-Resin-Casts-with-Modified-Paint-Tank/

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Self-lather
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26491Unread post Self-lather
Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:41 pm

Hey, would it be possible for you to lay out the steps you did so I can try to replicate this? I've been experimenting with castings for a bit now, but I haven't been able to achieve the quality that you have in this video.

Couple of quick questions, did you degas while the mold was drying, or just the mixture before you poured it? Did you degas the resin as it cured as well?

Thanks! This looks/sounds great.

-Thomas

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26497Unread post EmAtChapterV
Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:46 pm

Things you'll need:

1 - A lathe, obviously, ready to go with the music you're going to cut

2 - A spotless, dust-free master-quality blank lacquer the same size as the record you're about to replicate. (7-inch large hole in this case.)

3 - A clean smooth glass or stainless steel round serving tray, about two inches wider than the blank, perfectly flat on the bottom with edges at least half an inch high.

4 - A perfectly level and steady turntable with either a removable spindle, or a stack of discarded lacquers high enough to clear the spindle. Check the top of the stack with a bubble level all the way around to ensure flatness. If you're going to do this with a twelve-inch LP, using a fourteen-inch serving tray, make sure your turntable can accommodate it.

5 - Some Smooth-On Oomoo 30 for the molds, and Task 4 for the records. A 2x1 pint sample pack of each gets you two 480 mL molds, good for a 7-inch, and (in theory) 16 to 18 cast 7-inch records (50 to 60 mL of resin each, depending on how you pour them).

6 - A set of disposable 30 mL resin mixing cups, a razor blade and some non-latex disposable gloves from the model-making store.

7 - A bunch of 10 oz and 16 oz clear plastic cups, a couple of 30 oz yogurt containers, some plastic picnic knives and a roll of paper towels from the grocery store.

8 - a ten-by-ten or twelve-by-twelve inch square of cardboard and a dehydrator or oven that runs at 150 to 170 F.

9 - A LOT of patience and a steady hand.

----

Steps:

1 - Center the serving tray on the turntable and cover it with the square of cardboard.

2 - Cut the record, and once finished scribe something in the dead wax so you'll know which mold you're dealing with.

3 - Remove cardboard, center the cut record in the serving tray. Rotate turntable, serving tray and record while watching surface reflections and groove wall reflections to ensure they're level, centered and flat. Place cardboard back on serving tray. It's there to keep dust and cat hair out until you're ready to pour.

4 - Get two 16 ounce plastic cups, a yogurt container, three knives, and a pair of gloves. Put the gloves on.

5 - Open up Part A of the Oomoo 30. Use the knife to gently stir it up for a minute or so until any separated parts blend into one consistency. It's about the viscosity of pudding. Pour half of the one-pint container (for a 7") into one of the 16 oz cups. Place knife in cup as well. Replace lid snugly on container.

6 - Repeat process with Part B of the Oomoo 30, using the second knife. Place cups next to each other to ensure *exactly* the same amount of both parts has been dispensed.

7 - Pour both cups into the yogurt container, and use the third knife to stir, slowly but thoroughly until the pink and blue mix together into lavender. Scrape the sides and bottom of the container to make sure no material has been missed.

8 - Once the mixture is blended, remove cardboard, and begin pouring mixture over the center hole of the record, from a height of about two feet, as slowly as can be done while maintaining a steady stream. It should come out of the container in a thin narrow ribbon or thread and form a tiny "anthill" before spreading out. This minimizes air bubbles. If the serving tray is level, the Oomoo will spread out evenly over the surface of the record and beyond to the edges of the serving tray, and find its level.

9 - Near the end of the material, the lavender will turn to streaks of blue and pink - stop pouring at this point, this is stuff that didn't get mixed. Dispose of the used container in a secure manner, especially if kids are around: it's a yogurt container and Oomoo looks and flows exactly like yogurt. (It is decidedly NOT yogurt.)

10 - Leave the Oomoo to set. The instructions say six hours; I add another three or four to be on the safe side.

11 - Once it's set (it should be slightly squishy but not tacky at all), use a knife between the edge of the serving tray and the Oomoo to separate it all the way around. Get your fingers between them and slowly and carefully peel the Oomoo and the cut record out of the tray.

12 - Gently peel the Oomoo away from the cut record. Some of it will have flowed underneath the edges, center hole and guide pin hole; if that part comes away cleanly with the record, that's good. If not, it will need to be cut away from the edges of the mold with the razor blade - it's a haven for air bubbles. The guide pin hole, if present, will be a "knob" in the mold; if you're a perfectionist like me, cut it out with the razor blade, as close to the surface as possible but not any deeper. Ensure that no stray fragments of Oomoo are left on the mold surface.

13 - Place the mold on the piece of cardboard, "groove" side up, and place both in the dehydrator/oven, set to 150 to 170 F for 3 to 4 hours. This "cures" the mold, driving out any residual moisture and alcohol that might spoil a casting, and making it stronger.

14 - Once the time is up, turn off the oven and allow about an hour for the mold to cool to room temperature.

15 - Once cooled, place the mold on the turntable, "groove" side up. Rotating it, use a strong light source and a magnifying glass to make sure it's centered and perfectly circular first at the end groove, then also at the edge of the record near the lead-in. If placed awkwardly or haphazardly, the flexibility of the Oomoo can result in oval- or egg-shaped records.

16 - Once centered and circular, place the cardboard on top of the mold to keep dust and cat hair out.

----

Whew, that was an essay. I'll do the Task resin casting part after I've had some dinner.

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26498Unread post EmAtChapterV
Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:40 am

And I'm back. I forgot to mention - if you have a vacuum pump and vacuum chamber, that comes at step #8, after mixing and before pouring. I saw only limited effectiveness in this, probably because I have a hand pump that only pulls about 15 inches of mercury instead of the recommended 29.

Now, on to the resin. Task 4 is best but slowest; I'm using Task 3 at the moment, Task 9 will also do.

1 - Open Part A of the Task container, and measure out 30 mL into one of the resin-measuring cups. Do likewise with the Part B into another cup. If available, a tiny dab of So Strong or Ignite urethane dye can be added to the Part B dispensed. Using separate knives, each cup should be stirred *very carefully* (they're full almost to the brim). Especially with Part B with dye added - the colour should become smooth and uniform with no streaks.

2 - Pour the two measuring cups into one 10 oz. cup, and stir for about four minutes. Stir thoroughly but not vigorously, scraping the sides and bottom. The goal is to not introduce any air bubbles if at all possible.

The next few steps are voodoo:

3 - Do some or all of the following: tap on the bottom of the cup; tap the cup against a hard surface; vacuum-degas the contents of the cup; let the cup sit for a few minutes so long as it doesn't approach the maximum "pot life" of the particular Task resin you're using. Some of these work some of the time, sometimes they have no effect, once in awhile they work against you. Nothing I've found thus far has worked all of the time. :|

4 - Remove the cardboard from the mold and begin pouring the resin at the label area near the center hole. Low And Slow is the key: you want as narrow a steady stream as possible, which due to the low viscosity of the resin compared to the Oomoo means it needs to be poured from as close to the surface as possible to avoid droplets which will lead to bubbles. Too fast a pour and the resin won't have time to flow outwards over the mold surface. Wait too long to pour and it will start to set inside the cup, thickening up and becoming unpourable. (In one case, with such a sudden chemical reaction that the cup began to melt as I was holding it!)

5 - Slowly move the pouring spot around the center of the mold (but not on the center hole/knob), letting the wave of resin lead the way, not getting ahead of it. It will slowly make its way to the edge of the mold; once you get the feel of its momentum outwards you'll learn how much to pour at each spot. It's better to pour too little and have to add some than it is to pour too much and have a messy flood.

6 - Never ever touch the poured resin until it's well finished setting - it will foam up if you do. If the liquid resin is reluctant to make the last eighth of an inch to the edge of the mold, use your fingernail to press down on the raised portion just outside the affected area, and gravity and surface tension will help out. Once done, the poured surface should appear as smooth as glass.

7 - Wait. Then wait some more. And wait some more after that. There's a "recommended handling time" for each Task product, anywhere from 75 minutes for Task 9, to 16 hours for Task 4. Take that time and add four to six hours to it.

8 - Once the time is up, tap on the resin near the center hole with your fingernail: it should be completely solid, there should be no mark left behind, even for a fraction of a second. If that checks out okay, gently lift one edge of the mold: the cast resin should not bend with it, but be completely rigid. If it bends, or your fingernail leaves a mark, the resin isn't done setting. Wait some more.

8a - If after waiting some more, the surface of the resin is tacky, gummy or bends very easily, something went wrong. The resin cure has been inhibited, and both resin and mold are now ruined. Start over with a new mold. Supposedly there's a way to rescue contaminated molds, but it seems to me that the detail in the grooves would be irreparably damaged no matter what was done.

9 - If the resin is solid, flip it over and separate the mold from it the way you did with the master lacquer. Make sure there's no residual resin stuck to the mold or vice versa.

10 - Congratulations, you now have a cast resin record. :mrgreen: Leave it on a flat, cat-free surface for 24 hours to make absolutely sure it's cast before playing it. Curing it in the dehydrator/oven in the same manner as the mold is suggested, but I've not tried this yet. Re-center and ensure the circularity of the mold, and repeat this process as you see fit.

11 - The mold is worn out when the dead wax and label area start to take on a frosted or oily appearance and/or the resulting records are noisy, but this hasn't happened to me yet since I started curing my molds. If the master lacquer is clear and clean with no Oomoo residue or dust, it can be remolded repeatedly. You could make many molds for simultaneous production and increased throughput, but the potential downside is one bad batch of non-curable resin could ruin them all simultaneously. (Ask me how i know this... :x )

----

So there you go, that's what I've learned so far.

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rsimms3
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26501Unread post rsimms3
Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:57 am

I was reading up on casting and for basic shapes, it is recommended that a release be sprayed in the mold to help with removal once the resin hardens, would this be good or bad in the case of making records?

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Self-lather
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26502Unread post Self-lather
Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:57 am

Hey! Thanks so much for posting this, you rock! Hopefully I can get some better results like you have. I'm thinking the plastic I use may actually be the issue. I've been using smooth-on 300, which dries super fast, but seems super noisey. Have you ever tried the Task 4 with the accelerator solution for faster drying times? I wonder if that would work. The problem is that I want to make like 20 or 30 of these things, and I need something faster than a 6 hour cure time.

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26516Unread post EmAtChapterV
Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:11 pm

Here's some more video of some of the steps in the process:
I haven't found mold release necessary when separating the cast records from the mold, and I'd be concerned it would add noise. I hadn't considered the accelerator, it might be worth a try if you have the means to measure and dispense liquid in 100 milligram increments. (A 1.5% concentration into 30 grams is 450 mg; I wouldn't feel comfortable reducing pot life to anything less than 7 minutes.)

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rsimms3
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26523Unread post rsimms3
Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:35 am

I wondered if there was concern about the release being unnecessary or could harm the fidelity. Great video above. At the end of the video what is the material that gets caught on the stylus? Is that residue from the mold that was stuck in the grooves or something else? Cat hair?

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26524Unread post EmAtChapterV
Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:49 am

rsimms3 wrote:At the end of the video what is the material that gets caught on the stylus? Is that residue from the mold that was stuck in the grooves or something else? Cat hair?
I should have noted, the record at the end was made from a bad batch of Task 4 - there were uncured pockets of crystalline not-quite-resin throughout the record, hence all the ticks and pops. Some of them got stuck to the stylus, and cat hair followed. She's a domestic medium-hair, you wouldn't think she'd shed quite that much, but it gets everywhere. I turn all ventilation off and make sure she's been curled up sleeping in the far corner for awhile before I do any pouring. And any exposed surfaces get a piece of cardboard or a dropcloth over them.

The rest of the records were done with Task 3, which isn't ideal for this use. The only reason I went with it was I had a deadline I was trying to meet and the local Smooth-On distributor won't have any replacement Task 4 for a couple of weeks.

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Self-lather
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26531Unread post Self-lather
Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:13 pm

Awesome video, thanks for posting!

I was wondering how brittle are your records? I just tested a mold with some Task 6. Its sounded awesome, but it ended up breaking in half really easily. I wonder what the strongest Task plastic is. Before this, I was using the Smooth-Cast stuff, which sounds like crap, but its super strong.

-Thomas

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EmAtChapterV
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 26532Unread post EmAtChapterV
Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:40 pm

Self-lather wrote:I was wondering how brittle are your records? I just tested a mold with some Task 6. Its sounded awesome, but it ended up breaking in half really easily. I wonder what the strongest Task plastic is.
Task 4, by far. Its purpose is to be "exceptionally strong in thin-walled sections", whether that's between groove walls or running the entire record over with a truck. Even trimming it is a challenge. It's some tough stuff.

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KALIA
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 27310Unread post KALIA
Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:40 am

So good:-)!! how many pressings can you make with a stamper before it starts to "wear out".
Also how durable is the pressings?

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recordboy
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 27564Unread post recordboy
Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:08 pm

nice result...

I don't know if people have tried going this route (or if it would work)? Making a wax disc master - and then casting it in a solid mold -encasing it completely (less the center hole -for filling etc.) -and then cutting it (very carefully) in half after burning out/heating out the wax disc (like a jeweler). Then one could have a double sided injection mold...

That's my idea -I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

:mrgreen:
Cheers,
recordboy

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recordboy
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Re: DIY vinyl with silicone molds and casting resin

Post: # 33055Unread post recordboy
Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:28 pm

Hello all-

I am just coming back to the forum after a year + absent.

I was hoping to find a wealth ov progress upon this technique, yet see I must have killed this thread?

Any new developments?

I do notice more people trying to diy press, has that taken over as the better way?
Or is it just what has been stated is the best way to date, just no double sided tries?

-cheers
Cheers,
recordboy

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