Lazarus Lathe Project

Anything goes! Inventors! Artists! Cutting edge solutions to old problems. But also non-commercial usage of record cutting. Cost- effective, cost-ineffective, nutso, brilliant, terribly fabulous and sometimes fabulously terrible ideas.

Moderators: piaptk, tragwag, Steve E., Aussie0zborn

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44834Unread post grooveguy
Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:18 pm

The mains frequency standard always interested me. I suppose being a Hertz or so off is no problem on a short-term basis, but the overall long-term accuracy was always maintained to within a wavelength of blue light, at least over here. Once the concept of a nationwide 'grid' took hold, a lot of attention was paid to the actual number of cycles dispensed over a 24-hour period, with the utility managers speeding-up or slowing-down the generators so that electromechanical clocks and timers would not slip more than a second or two throughout the day, and avoid accumulating errors over longer periods. It was said that a clock would stay to within one second over a year by this careful tabulation and correction of cycles emanating from the generators.

A firm I worked for in the early 1960s depended on the 60Hz mains for the accuracy of their rudimentary A-to-D converters. The front-end was an extremely accurate voltage-to-frequency converter, which the company held patents on, and was followed by a frequency counter that would take samples of the pulse stream coming in and spit out digits. The clock was the 60Hz mains divided down to a 0.1 or a 1 second timebase for the counter. And in those pre-chip days, the frequency dividers were actually one-shot multivibrators triggered by the mains, effectively dividing it first by six to 10Hz, and then again by ten to 1Hz. Crude but they worked.

User avatar
jesusfwrl
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 2:24 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44857Unread post jesusfwrl
Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:48 am

If you would receive a penny for each time that the mains frequency deviation exceeds the standards, you would be pretty rich and there wouldn't be any national grid.
Mains power is pretty horrible in most of the UK. Voltage variations and noise are also causing problems for audio installations. Even if frequency regulation is better in the USA, the quality of the power in your building will also depend on the distribution network and the installation of your building. Since the USA is pretty big, the quality can vary depending on location. As a general rule, if you are using mains power for anything critical, which primarily means audio, but can also extend to simpler situations such as medical and life support equipment, you will need to invest a great deal of effort in a reliable power supply. A bare minimum for audio installation are power conditioning devices and voltage regulators, and if you are using anything were the speed relies on synchronous motors, then you should be using a quartz locked and reliably accurate source of 50 or 60Hz as appropriate, whose voltage and frequency will not depend on the grid conditions or on the load. For less critical work, it is probably not worth worrying too much about small speed deviations.

As for illuminating strobe disks, an incandescent lamp has the benefit of running at twice the mains frequency by default since it will light up at both the negative and positive cycle, so the frequency would be good, but the problem would be thermal inertia. The mains frequency is too fast for an incandescent filament to have enough time to cool down at every 0 crossing. So, it does not really flash on and off, the intensity is just being modulated. It still works quite good, but will not provide a super sharp image. Unlike incandescent lamps and neon bulbs, LEDs are polarity-sensitive, and can only utilise the positive or negative part of the wave, but not both. The full wave rectifier approach deals with this so the LED can utilise the remaining half of the wave form as well. All three aforementioned light sources will work just fine, with the LED probably offering the sharpest image.

I am using a quartz locked 100Hz strobo light made by Flokason, along with the strobo printed on the label of the new Flokason test record, which is absolutely fantastic.
I am thinking of making some strobo disks out of stainless steel for testing and setting up lathes and turntables, if I have some time...

The strobo mat looks awesome!
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44858Unread post grooveguy
Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:15 pm

Jesus,

You are certainly right about the power distribution situation; always at the mercy of utility company practices and those of sloppy electricians. Speaking of audio, there was a fellow who came into our place of business to have a piece of equipment repaired, opting to wait while it was done. This guy is a respected broadcast engineer with a good understanding of audio systems and broadcast transmitters. He got to talking about the importance of the right mains line cord for audio gear, extending his pontificating even to include the mains wall-outlet. He told how he had replaced every outlet in his home with a "hospital grade" one, mounted (per hospital practices) with the US fat ground-pin hole facing upward, but not for the valid reason of avoiding sparks and flames should one drop a metallic object onto a partially-inserted plug. With a perfectly straight face, he detailed how much better things sounded plugged into those outlets, especially "definition in the upper-midrange," or whatever. Although I argued that, as long as a regulated supply never dipped out of regulation, it should make no difference what the incoming mains did, he was not to be dissuaded.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44861Unread post Soulbear
Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:54 pm

Hi There,
What a delightful excursus
grooveguy wrote: With a perfectly straight face, he detailed how much better things sounded plugged into those outlets, especially "definition in the upper-midrange," or whatever.
Along much the same lines, I urge you to view Dave Jones "Audiophile Audiophoolery here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4 It's a Pants Wettingly Funny Video examining the Idiocy of so.called Audiophiles!!Also most worthy of a view is the Link Dave makes in the video to a letter from a Lawyer, it's Side-Splitting, You have been Warned Te He!!
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44888Unread post Soulbear
Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:03 pm

Hi Trolls,
I've previously attempted to Fashion some Stylus "Heater" Terminals on the DR33C using some Spring-Loaded Contacts ordinarily used on Loudspeakers I.E. these:-
BSR DR33C Restoration-77.jpg
I agreed with grooveguy's observation, that the Strength of the Spring within these Loudspeaker Terminals, would in all likelihood "Shear" the NiChrome Heater Wire on the Stylus. This meant having a re-think, and looking for alternatives. On grooveguy's recommendation I looked into the "Cambion" branded Terminals, and these indeed turned out to be "Perfect" But I then ran into a "Ridiculous" stipulation by the U.K. company of a Minimum Order Quantity of 500 Pieces!! Now as much as I like these Cambion Terminals, having been supplied a Single Terminal as a sample, such a Purchase would have "At a Stroke" virtually doubled my expenditure on this Project. Needles to say, despite Herculean efforts to alternatively source these items by grooveguy "Stateside" for me, similar Minimum Order Quantity constraints prevailed "Stateside", meaning that these "Cambion" Contacts will not be fitted to the DR33C, a pity, as they were ideal.
Jesus also mentioned that when he failed to source components like this, he turned his hand to making them himself. With this in mind, and failing to acquire suitable "Purpose Made" Terminals, I decided to follow his example.
Now a little earlier in this Project whilst fitting the "Cutterhead Counterweight" Modification I had cause to "Fit" a Thumbnut for Adjustment of the Spring Counterbalance Tensioner on my little Modification. I now looked into buying the "Smallest" available Thumbnut from my Fastener Supplier which turned out to be Threaded at 2.5mm. I Cut, Drilled and Tapped at 2.5mm some 4mm Phenolic Board, and installed this between the Webster Cutterhead and the Cutterhead Carriage Frame. I further mounted some Cut-Down 2.5mm Stainless Studs and Extended the Wires running through the Overhead Carrriage. Using the 2.5mm Thumbnuts I attached these "New" Stylus Heater Feed Wires onto the Stainless Studs on the Phenolic Board :-
BSR DR33C Restoration-82.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-83.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-84.jpg
Those wires were originally the Audio Feed to the BSR Cutterhead, they've now been re-purposed as a Stylus Heater Feed. Whilst the Webster was off the Carriage Frame, I took the opportunity to change the Mis-matched Admiralty Grey Colour, and gave it a couple of Coats of Satin Black. The Original "Crinkle" type paint finish on the Webster "Shows Through" which now it's Black, makes the Cutterhead Look "Matched" and Contemporaneous with the Rest of the "Overhead" In addition I've also been "Road Testing" some "Extra Long" Rubber Drive Belts for the Platter, from an alternative supplier to the one I mentioned earlier in the thread, I obtained them from here :- http://www.gbaudio.co.uk/data/belts.htm Belt Number 465 I'm Happy to report, is "Just the Job" Apart from re-fitting the "Hardboard Cover" and "Rubber Feet" to the Underside of the Base/Plinth of the DR33C, this just about Completes this Phase of the Project. Additionally, I'll have some "Tweeking" and Checking of the Swarf Removal Vaccum Pipe for All-around Clearance, once I Obtain and Fit a Stylus to the Cutterhead, and have a Recording Blank sat on the Platter. It all looks very Close and Tight Under the Webster, I just hope that the Vacuum Pipe Clears and Works Well, because it would "Pain Me" if I had to start over again. Next up will be trying to make a "Lathe Stand" which will hopefully accommodate and incorporate a selection of "Rack Mount" Goodies, such as a C D Music Source, Amplifiers, Graphic and/or Parametric Equalisers, Compressor/Limiters, Kettle, Sandwich Toaster, Coffee Percolator etc etc. It has also got to be made "High Enough" for these Old Bones, so that I'm not having to constantly be Reaching Down to "Floor Level" to Operate, or Make Adjustments to it Te He!!
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear
Continued...........
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44889Unread post grooveguy
Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:29 pm

Good going, Soulbear,

A real shame about the Cambion mini binding posts. Actually I'm quite surprised that they remain in the Cambion catalog. I bought my first pair (for a Presto 1D head) in 1959 or 1960. I'll bet the one you got as a sample could be that old.

Don't forget that, if you are going to heat that stylus, you MUST have a vacuum system to suck-away that almost-explosive chip/swarf.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44906Unread post Soulbear
Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:54 pm

Hi grooveguy,
grooveguy wrote:Don't forget that, if you are going to heat that stylus, you MUST have a vacuum system to suck-away that almost-explosive chip/swarf.
Understood, I've just been having a little "Read Up" and discovered that the Lacquer "Swarf" has very similar properties to a widely used 19th Century Explosive called "Gun Cotton" and which releases up to 6 Times the Energy of "Black Powder" when ignited OUCH!! Who'd have thought that something which looks to be apparently harmless and seemingly innocuous, could be so volatile and dangerous? Thank You for the Caution. I think I'll be sticking with the Polycarbonate Blanks, much less Risky Te He!
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 44907Unread post grooveguy
Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:35 pm

When I was a small child, family holiday gatherings marked the time to drag out the old disc recorder. I'd collect swarf and then wait until my parents were otherwise occupied. I found that if I touched the wad of swarf with a glowing ember, it would reduce itself to white smoke and a small dollop of 'goo' almost instantly. But light it with a flame and it would disappear in a puff, almost without smoke, generating a good deal of heat. Fun stuff. I probably would have had real fun back in the days of 35mm 'nitrate' movie film, which would ignite and burn quite nicely, although not as rapidly as the fine thread of disc swarf. In my earliest experiments with a hot stylus, the vacuum was poorly located and only barely sufficient to pull the thread into the tube. Quite often I'd lose suction somehow and get a gooey mass on the stylus tip. An acetone soak would soften it for removal, but of course the disc was ruined.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45020Unread post Soulbear
Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:41 pm

Hi Trolls,
Soulbear wrote:Next up will be trying to make a "Lathe Stand" which will hopefully accommodate and incorporate a selection of "Rack Mount" Goodies, such as a C D Music Source, Amplifiers, Graphic and/or Parametric Equalisers, Compressor/Limiters, Kettle, Sandwich Toaster, Coffee Percolator etc etc.
I'm thinking that perhaps a Cabinet Unit like this, will be just the thing to accomodate these items :-
BSR DR33C Restoration-85.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-86.jpg
It's actually a Data/Server Cabinet that I'm looking to re-purpose for My 19" Rack Mount Items. As well as having a Stylish "Smoked Glass" Front Door which is also Detachable via a pair of "Spring-Loaded" Hinges, there are also 2 "Removable" Side Panels. Removing the Side Panels should Help Facilitate the Power and Audio Cabling Tasks to be Performed. Additionally, the Cabinet is "Strong Enough" to have the DR33C Lazarus Lathe Sitting on Top. The main idea with this Cabinet, is to have as "Small a Footprint" as possible due to the space restrictions of My Home. Now ideally, for "Ease of Access" to the Components contained therein, this Cabinet would be Wall-Mounted, however Trolls, and I Kid you Not, I simply do not have the "Wall-Space" to do this. So this makes Floor-Standing the Cabinet My only real option. Now Floor-Standing this Cabinet adds a further complication for Me. Whilst not ideal, 20 or even 10 years ago, I would have had few problems reaching down to Floor Level to Access Controls, Switches, Knobs, Sliders, and the like, with which to Control and make Adjustments to all the Gizmo's contained within. I'm not Sympathy-Seeking, but Not to put too fine a point on it, Advancing Years and the Attendant Decrepitude, have at last caught up with Me, so Stooping down to Floor Level is No Longer really an Option. This has left Me needing to devise some way of "Elevating" the Cabinet "Off the Floor" to make things Accessible for Me. Now when making a Plinth/Base for the DR33C I affixed an "Internal Rim" onto which sat the Lathe's Deckplate, This got me to perusing doing something similar for this Cabinet. Though I'm absolutely "Not a Carpenter" I set to work making something similar to the Lathe's Plinth/Base, only this time intentionally making it "Quite Deep" and after a Few Tests of attempting what I could comfortably manage to Stoop/Reach Down to, I settled on needing to "Raise" the Base of the Cabinet just about a Foot "Off the Floor" so set to work with my Circular Saw, Cutting up a Sheet of 18mm Medium Density Fibreboard, and Cutting, Drilling, and Countersinking the PSE Corner and Internal Rim Pieces.
BSR DR33C Restoration-90.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-91.jpg
As a little extra "Added Bonus" a little late in the day, and in an effort to make this Cabinet "Movable" to facilitate "Housekeeping Tasks" like Vacuuming the Carpet and suchlike, I also decided upon fitting some "Heavy Duty" Castors, which will additionally raise the Base of the Cabinet another 3 or so Inches. "Off the Deck" To borrow a marketing Catchphrase from one of the U.K.s leading Supermarket Chains "Every Little Helps" Te He!
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear
Continued.............
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
jesusfwrl
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 2:24 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45028Unread post jesusfwrl
Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:53 am

Grooveguy, nitrocellulose is also the basic ingredient for the smokeless gunpowder commonly used in fire arm ammunition for the past century or so. Black powder is actually an explosive which also happens to be corrosive to the steel of the fire arms, so when it was still being used in ammunition, it was customary to wash the firearm in warm soapy water after use to completely remove all residues of the combustion process. Smokeless powder does not explode, it is merely a combustible substance producing much greater pressure levels while doing so, while being much more friendly to steel parts. However, it is very sensitive to humidity, so in its pure form, it is mostly used for hunting ammunition in southern European countries with a dry climate. In the USA and quite possibly also the UK, it is usually mixed with nitroglycerine, which makes it more stable in a wider range of temperature and humidity.
The lacquer formulations also contain a variety of other substances, retaining the combustion properties of nitrocellulose, but resulting in what you describe as "goo" leftovers. Nitrocellulose gun powder leaves no solid residue whatsoever. I also have some ideas regarding fun things to do with lacquer chip. I shall be posting something about this subject in the near future... possibly when the weather gets better, since such fun activities need to happen outdoors.

Soulbear, ergonomically it is a very good idea to not have to bend all the way to the floor to access controls. Even if you are able to do so, having to do this several times daily will quickly make anyone unable to do so in the long term...
I also find that I prefer the platter to be almost at chest level, so I can adjust things while standing without having to bend over, and while seated, the stylus is at eye level, so I can carefully observe the cutting process, without doing acrobatics. The castors might also provide some degree of decoupling for when the garbage truck comes around. It used to shake my floor boards quite a bit...
~~~ Precision Mechanical Engineering, Analog Disk Mastering ~~~
Agnew Analog Reference Instruments: http://www.agnewanalog.com

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45032Unread post Soulbear
Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:31 pm

Hi Trolls,
Continuing with my "Carpentry Adventures" after a few hours of Glueing and Screwing the "Internal Rim" and "Corner Pieces" I ended up with this :-
BSR DR33C Restoration-93.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-94.jpg
I Checked and Re-checked all the Angles with My Largest "Carpenter's Square" and Surprised Myself that notwithstanding my limited Working Environment, and even more Limited "Carpentry Skills" I'd managed to Create 4 Nicely Right-Angled Joints on the Base for the Cabinet. Now Trolls, I don't know what the Pro Carpenter's use to Prime and Seal Medium Density Fibreboard with, but as I had Loads left from My Last House Decorating Endeavours, the Base got a Couple of Liberal Coatings of an Undiluted Multi-Purpose PVA Sealer which was allowed to "Fully Dry" Overnight. By Morning it had Changed from a "Creamy White" Colour from when it was First Applied, to a "Clear" almost Varnish like Finish. With there being no Runs or Sags in this now Clear Finish, I had one of My Customary Late Changes of Plan. I had purchased some 2 Litres of "Oil-Based" Black Gloss Paint which I intended to Apply by Brush to the Base. However the Weather here in the U.K. has been set really "Fair" for Late November/ Early December, and so I took the Base "Outdoors" and Spray Painted It, with Six Coats, using Aerosol Cans of UPol Satin Black :-
BSR DR33C Restoration-95.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-96.jpg
The Satin Black Paint seems to have Adhered to the PVA Base-Coat without reacting with it. I know some Finishes can React badly when mixed with different Types, particulary Cellulose amd Acrylics, I think though in all honesty, I got a "Good Finish" on the Base, more by Luck than by Judgement!!
jesusfwrl wrote: Soulbear, ergonomically it is a very good idea to not have to bend all the way to the floor to access controls.
I Fully agree Jesus, now that I've made this, the Base Unit alone will "Lift" the Lowest Rack Mounted Component around a "Very Comfortable" Minimum of 300mm "Off the Deck" + a Further 75mm+ due to the Late Addition of the Castors
jesusfwrl wrote:The castors might also provide some degree of decoupling
Maybe, maybe not Jesus, however your point about degree's of decoupling is well made. In an attempt to address this very issue, the Base's Topmost Internal Rim, (where the Cabinet Sits) has been Fitted with a 20mm Thick Layer of some "High Density" Polyurethane Foam. With no Components Installed within the Cabinet, the Foam shows a Very Small Degree of "Compression" When the components get fitted and the Mass is Greater, I'm sure it will "Compress" Further but still not be "Fully Flattened" And so totally subjectively, My assessment is that I think this can only be an "Aid" to this end.
jesusfwrl wrote: also find that I prefer the platter to be almost at chest level
Even though I'm over 6Ft Tall, it's looking like that's where the DR33C's Platter will end up with this Set-Up. so from an ergonomic viewpoint I think this should be a really nice anthropocentric workstation, with most things now being readily to hand, and the need for Reaching/Stooping minimised. we shall see, we shall see.
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear
Continued..............
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45077Unread post Soulbear
Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:47 am

Hi Trolls,
Soulbear wrote:Hi There,

“The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.” - Robert Burns - To a Mouse, or in Non-Dialect English "The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry"
And so it is with this Lazarus Lathe Project. I had initially hoped to compensate for my "Lack Of" BSR Laydown Cutterhead and use my "Ugly Duckling" Cutterhead on this Renovation/Modification, a few reasons were manifest, as in :-
1) It was the correct "Vintage"
2) Aesthetically it "Looked O.K."
3) I'd already Purchased It!
4) I have a fondness for Ugly Duckling, a "Soft Spot" if you will, as it was my first Record Cutting-Related Purchase!!

However, try as I may Trolls, I could not use both "Ugly Duckling" and Stylus Heating. For the Life of Me, there was simply no way I could find to fit "Stylus Heater" terminals onto the DR33C's Cutterhead Carriage with this Cutterhead In-Situ. Additionally the mounting Bolts to attach "Ugly Duckling" to the Carriage Frame are located in a Sub-Optimum Position (For this Lathe's Cutterhead Carriage) at the back of the Cutterhead, restricting full adjustment of the Carriage Frame Propper. I could have attempted a "Work Around" and indeed I've had a few goes at it, before deciding that the results would have looked like a "Bodge Job" and that I'm afraid Trolls, will just not suffice, such "Work Around" attempts have now been abandoned.
I've yet again had one of my Customary Change of Plans, influenced in no small part by a comment from PIAPTK in a thread discussing a Coin Operated Disc Recorder. With the Delicacy and Subtlety of a "Napper Massage" with a 4"x4" Fence Post, He mentioned "The one at third man in Nashville just has a crappy little Webster head." http://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6944
Now Trolls, I'm often accused of being a "Little Slow on the Uptake", but I think the message here is "Loud and Clear" and that is, perhaps that my "Webster" installation on the DR33C's Overhead might also be considered "Sub-Optimal" Though PIAPTK's Views are not wholly in accordance with other opinions that have been expressed and that I've read about this Cutterhead, it would be a silly exercise, and so who am I to argue, with someone with as much Record Cutting knowledge and experience?? Therefore Trolls, the "Crappy Little Webster" is now removed from this "Lazarus Lathe Project" and is going to be "Held as First Reserve"
This has left me somewhat perplexed and in a quandary as to what I might use in place of the Webster, and once again I came back to "Ugly Duckling"
Not least because it "Looks the Part" but additionally, of all the Non-Scientific "Dummy Stylus against the Gas Fire" tests I've conducted, with various Cutterheads, "Ugly Duckling" seems to produce results as Good, if not Better than most. The problem with using "Ugly Duckling" lay with the Position of the UNC threaded Mounting Holes on the back of this Cutterhead. These Hex Headed Bolts fouled the Cutterhead Frame on the Overhead Carriage, which prevented the Cutterhead Frame from being adjusted to Nearly the Vertical. This wasn't an issue if I didn't use Stylus Heating as the Stylus would "Land" exactly on the "Cutting Line" which Bisects a Blank. However, fitting the Stylus Heating Option, would have made the Stylus locate "Forward" of this line whilst cutting, and so I was at first thwarted in my atttempts to fit both "Ugly Duckling" and the most desirable "Stylus Heating" Option.

Taking this Cutterhead apart once more, revealed that if I used Extreme Care, I could just about "Get Away" with Drilling and Tapping fresh Mounting Holes. Talk about "Buttock Clenching" this Drilling and Tapping Exercise luckily went without Mishap, with neither Drill Bit or Thread Tap hitting the Coil. I was additionally able to fit M4 Capscrews which take considerably less space than the Original 1/4" UNC Hex Headed Bolts, so now I'm back with my "First Second Choice" (First would of Course have been using a BSR Cutterhead)
BSR DR33C Restoration-97.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-98.jpg
I can now rotate the Overhead Carriage Cutterhead Frame to the Vertical if needs be, AND have the Terminals Fitted for Stylus Heating too!!
Another little Step Closer to realising my Record Cutting Ambitions Te He!
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45080Unread post grooveguy
Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:17 pm

"Never say die." Good man, SB, looks like you're on your way to cutting a mean groove. Keep at it!
By the way, your note very suddenly reminded me this morning that I _should_ have a Webster cutterhead, in pieces, somewhere in my Cabinet of Dr. Caligari. So I went and looked, and, sure enough, found the pieces of the Webster, carefully put away following the initial steps of restoration, probably in the 1970s. Does this one bear any resenblance to yours?
DSCN4935.JPG
The back of the head has a place for a model number, which is conspicuous by its absence:
DSCN4936.JPG
Back when this disc recording gear was more readily available, I acquired several cutterheads, which I disassembled and began to restore, only to drop the ball when a good head came along that I could use exclusively. I really ought to whip a few of these into shape, now that this gear has become as scarce as the proverbial hens' teeth. Might buy me a cup of gruel in my dotage.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45083Unread post Soulbear
Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:38 pm

Hi Grooveguy,
Webster Cutterhead.JPG
Webster Cutterhead1.JPG
As far as I can see, your deferred "Restoration Project" is ( If not Brothers ) a Very Close Cousin to this Webster. The main difference seems to be the shape of the "Coil Former" which without checking, I think on my Webster, is Circular. The space on the Rear of the Body where the Model number presumably should be, has similarly been left blank on this Webster too.

Well grooveguy, the Critique of the Webster I referred to earlier, certainly got my attention, and I must say I was dissappointed to learn of the contemptutous regard with which it is held, and to quote my Late Lamented Granny it "P***ed all over my Strawberries" However when I first came upon this Cutterhead for sale a year or so ago, I did do a little research (As one naturally would) and came across an alternative Viewpoint :- http://lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2944&p=17286&hilit=webster#p17286
"Usually 8 ohms - response to about 8kHz. It sold for $15 -$20 and could do an excellent job for such an inexpensive cutter. Mainly used by hobbyists but could have possibly been used in small studios".

Needless to say, upon reading of this assessment of the Webster, this very much informed my initial purchasing decision. It beggars the question "Who's is the more Accurate Assesment?" In the past few months I gained a further insight on the Webster, from non other than your late friend Bob's wonderful Book "Disk Recording 1930-1960" where he wrote :-

"In commercial work I never used the Webster Cutter, but I believe it could have been used for recording in smaller studios" p55

In light of this "Alternative" Negative Evaluation and Perception of the Websters Capabilities however, I've now come to think that it would be of "Great Service" a "Real Boon" and of Mutual Benefit, to have a Single Thread of Lathe Trolls "Reviews of Cutterheads" Highlighting both the Negatives as well as the Positives of the respective Manufacturer's offerings, and which could perhaps be "Stickied" in the Reference Section of the Forum. I know a few Cutterheads share common Ancestry and are really Nothing more than "Badge Engineered" Here I'm thinking of the Audak, RCA. and Presto "Tombstone" Type heads, how do these compare to each other?? In addition how do the Presto 1B. 1C. and 1D compare to each other?? And also to the various Grampians etc?? I know of one user who used an MSS Laydown Cutterhead in preference to a Grampian Laydown head when, leaving out the Mono Neumann, supposedly the "Grampian" is the "De Facto" best Mono Cutterhead Ever, or is it?? We don't wish to be "Spoon Fed" but it does seem to be pretty much a "Minefield" for all us Novice Lathe Trolls, and one which of course we could avoid, if we could perhaps access this information in a single Thread :roll: :roll: :roll: Rant Over! Te He!
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45088Unread post grooveguy
Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:30 pm

Hi, SB,

Sure looks like the same animal. The raised outline and circle on the front of yours was probably on mine too. I have vague recollection of doing the Orbital Mambo on a piece of emery paper to get rid of that decoration, and then repainted it in battleship gray as you saw. (Very often I attack the cosmetic aspects of a restoration way before even evaluating the item for its possible usefulness. We all have our weaknesses.)

Of course when specifications, such as they were, were published or alluded-to in those days, it was probably with reference to a wide-groove recording at 78 r.p.m., and compared with, what, a test record of the day or a Buchman-Meyer pattern? The venerable Presto 1D was claimed to be fairly flat to 10kHz, but with a short-shank microgroove stylus and just a bit of 'above and beyond the call' equalization, I had mine flat as the proverbial pancake to 15kHz, referencing both an NAB and a CBS test record. By the way, the two were pretty close.

Bottom line: I would not discount this head. It's actually a pretty standard and solid design, and undoubtedly can be made to perform quite nicely. I'm sure there's a way to do the hot stylus, too, and if-and-when I get to the rest of the restoration of this piece, I'll equip it with suitable connections for same.

Oh, in the same box as the head I found a little emblem with "RR" on it. No connection to Rolls Royce, I'm sure, but probably to Radio Recorders, which is the lathe I think this Webster came with. Not a bad design, the overhead and all, but not nearly beefy enough. The top plate of the machine was formed steel sheet metal; no ribs, not even a token piece of plywood beneath it for rigidity. I remember covering that top plate with stick-on shelf liner in an imitation woodgrain finish. When I scrapped the lathe, that top plate sat out in the weather for at least a couple of years before I found someone who wanted it as scrap. That Con-Tact brand shelf liner is quite durable, actually; I've used the pebbled black version to cover front panels. Sticks well.
Snap3.jpg
Snap4.jpg
Jim
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45090Unread post Soulbear
Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:22 pm

Hi groveguy,
grooveguy wrote: I have vague recollection of doing the Orbital Mambo on a piece of emery paper to get rid of that decoration,
Aha, the old Orbital Emery Mambo Routine as Clouseau might have said Te He!
Foolishly I once removed a "Sticker" from a Rare Record of mine by Impatiently Peeling it off, rather than using a Cotton Bud dipped in Lighter Petrol (The Best way to get the Stickers off). In the process I tore the Label, and devalued the record by around £1000 my dumb ass!!!It eventually went at that time, for £1500 but I've just seen a Copy offered for £4000. As with your "Improvement" to the Webster, in hindsight they maybe would have retained more value by being "Left Alone"
grooveguy wrote:Bottom line: I would not discount this head. It's actually a pretty standard and solid design, and undoubtedly can be made to perform quite nicely.
The Head is not being discounted Per Se, but reading the disparaging comments sorta took the shine off it being used in this Project. It's simply the case that fitting the Webster is no longer my preferred option on this DR33C. In the fullness of time I'm sure I'll be using it somewhere. And thanks for the insights about Frequency Response being specified when used for 78's rather than Microgrooves. I follow the logic of your insight, it sounds intuitively correct to suppose that in "Excavating a Smaller Trench" the response would be higher.
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 45168Unread post Soulbear
Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:21 am

Hi Trolls,
I've started to install some of the Gizmo's into the Cabinet :-
BSR DR33C Restoration-104.jpg
BSR DR33C Restoration-103.jpg
These Gizmo's include a SPL 700 Watt Stereo Amplifier, Denon CD Player. 31 Channel Behringer FBQ 6200 Graphic Equaliser, Behringer FBQ1000 Parametric Equaliser, Behringer MDX1600 Compressor/Limiter, and Stageline LED VU Meter. Holy Crap!! I just did a quick calculation of the Variations/Permutations of all the Buttons/Sliders/Switches/Knobs and it Computes to 27,060 Variations of (N x N -1) or 165 x 164 just for interests sake!! The complexity of this Pastime is starting to "Hit Home" All this Gear to Scratch a "Wiggly Line" into a Disc Te He! I suspect that when it's all Boiled Down, it'll Follow the Pareto Principle of 80% of it being used 20% of the time and 20% being used 80% of the time, we shall see, we shall see. Additionally I've started to make some inter-connect adaptors which will get me from RCA Phono to XLR and back again :-
BSR DR33C Restoration-102.jpg
I don't like having to "Swap and Change" the Signal Cables from Balanced to Unbalanced, but this can't be avoided, because the various Audio Equipment Manufacturer'e Can't be Arsed to make a decent job of things and use XLR Connectors as Standard. Whist carrying out these little jobs, my thoughts turned to options for changing the Stereo Signal to a Mono Signal. I had a little search online and happened upon this Circuit :-
Stereo To Mono Summing2.pdf
I like it for its Simplicity, and from a Design Viewpoint, it will Sit Unobtrusively within the Cabinet. Now other circuits that I've found, all seem to follow this general idea, but then no two Resistance Values seem to be the same. The "Lowest" Value Circuit I've found is @ 470 Ohms, this Circuit recommends using 680 Ohms, whilst others have "Up to" 20K Ohms. I'm assuming these "Higher Resistance" Circuits will attenuate the Audio Signal somewhat, although this attenuation can be cancelled or reversed if needs be, by the Gain Functions elsewhere in the Signal Path. If any Lathe Trolls have made something "Similar" to this "Passive Box" and have recommendations on "Ideal" or "Best" Values of Resistor, if they're much different to the Values proposed within the PDF, please let me know what these alternative recommended Resistance Values are, it would be Greatly Appreciated thanks.
Regards :wink: :P :D Soulbear
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 46091Unread post Soulbear
Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:01 pm

Hi Trolls,
I have not abandoned this Project but have had an "Enforced Lay-Off" due in no small part, to some serious Health Issues that put me into Hospital for a time before Christmas. I'm making a "Slow but Steady" Recovery aided in no small part by looking forward to an upcoming "House Move" However, all Lathe-related activities are currently on hold while I'm packing things away

On a different matter, Markrob wrote :-
"Not sure why Soulbear is so upset with you. His calcs are correct"
Just to be clear
"Having just got out of Hospital, still Bleeding quite heavily, and still feeling very "Unwell" I responded to a PM where I patiently went into detail in response to an enquiry from sifis only to find him seeking further assurance on the Forum from other Lathe Trolls. I thought this most Rude and Impolite, because if I don't know the answer to something I am not afraid to say so, and I would hopefully refer the questioner to other, more knowledgable authorities. However, when I do know the answer, and have gone into some detail with my explanation, even though at the time I felt like "Death Warmed Up" I didn't appreciate my considered reply being called into question."

Perhaps on reflection due to being "Very Unwell" and in the very earliest stages of my recovery, I was a Little "Hyper Sensitive" and a touch "Cranky" so appologies if anyone feels that one's due.

On a much happier note, I'm happy to report that my Lathe related activities will be continuing (Subject to Contracts being Exchanged) and will now be taking place where I have much more space, to spread out my various Lathe Projects, in my "New" Man-Cave, which is here in this room of my new home:-
Man-Cave Cutting Room-1.jpg
Man-Cave Cutting Room-2.jpg
Regards
:wink: :P :D Soulbear
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
grooveguy
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:49 pm
Location: Brea, California (a few miles from Disneyland)
Contact:

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 46092Unread post grooveguy
Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:13 pm

Wow! Nice area; I envy you all that space. Those pool tables are generally very heavy. If it stays, THAT would be a fabulous workbench. All good thoughts for a speedy recovery and return to important things, like stuffing music into little grooves.

User avatar
Soulbear
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:56 am

Re: Lazarus Lathe Project

Post: # 46094Unread post Soulbear
Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Hi grooveguy,
grooveguy wrote: Those pool tables are generally very heavy
grooveguy wrote:All good thoughts for a speedy recovery and return to important things, like stuffing music into little grooves.
Thanks for the kind words, little by little, bit by bit etc etc, yes yes, making those squiggles in a Disc of Plastic is Very Important, at least it is to me :D Te He.
It's actually not a Pool table but a Snooker/Billiards Table. If you get to visit the U.K. we can have an "International Tournament" though in all probability you'd win "Hands Down" because when it comes to Potting these Coloured Spheres into the Pockets I couldn't hit a Cow's Arse with a Banjo!! I could sneakily practice though and do a Paul Newman in the "Hustler" Te He!
Regards
:wink: :P :D Soulbear

Post Reply