New Embossing Stylus!

[EposLab]

Hello all!
Some of you already know that I was experimenting on an "New" type of embossing stylus!
Having experiments on Tungsten and Sapphire stylus so long I realize the Pro & Cons of each stylus.

The classic TUNGSTEN stylus we all know, is the cheapest way to start with! Mine is 21mm long , 1.6mm wide , weights 0.77gr and cone angle is 90 degree.
Fidelity is LOW but is has a real LOW Background Noise! (Background Noise is something that I really care cause I hate it so I try to minimize the best I can )
Not to forget that Tungsten's "cutting life" is quite Low but It can be polished very easy!

On the other hand , SAPPHIRE cones offers a much Better Fidelity which is really worth! The one I got from Mike is 18mm long , 1.5mm wide , weights 0.09gr and cone angle is 87 degrees.
You get much Better Fidelity when you work on 7" but when work on 12" there is too much background noise , mostly like a pink noise and sometime like screams! I did tried different angles, weight , lubricant solutions etc with no results on my system That was limiting the use of the Sapphire cone only for 7" disks.
Cutting life on Sapphire is longer but re-sharpering must be done by an expert.

Examining Both stylus I was looking how can I get get both advantages with less cons I can, so I got the idea of making a embossing stylus that will use the same Aluminium Shank but instead of Sapphire cone tip to use a Tungsten one! This way I can get the advantage of Lowering the stylus moving mass (which I believe is part of the solid Tungsten's Low Fidelity performance) and also to make Low Background noise on both 7" & 12" disks like with Tungsten stylus! All these lead me to the following design:

01.jpg

As shown you noticed that I use a 0.5mm Tangsten rod. I decided to use this for lowering the most of the mass I can. The specs of this are as following: 18mm long , 1.6mm wide , weight 0.09gr and 90 degree cone angle. Its been almost 3 months I got this idea , it just the last week that I had some time to work on it! So here is the final stylus (also compared to the other two above)

02.jpg

03.jpg

Making the test cut I realize that Fidelity is equal (if not better) of the Sapphire cone! Although I noticed that even Sapphire cones improves Fidelity there is something still missing from the music..well with my stylus is just there! Is like music gets more life! I don't know how to explain but that's what I noticed on the first cuts I done. Personally i'm really very satisfied according to music cutting results but when I will find more time I will make some comparisson cuts (same samples / settings) so there will see what are the real differences!
Please note my setup consists of a Rek-O-Kut Master Pro lathe (V platter & B-5 overhead @270LPI) and a modded Presto 1-D cutterhead.
I like to share this with you and I'm curious of the results if someone make one and try on his lathe!

04.jpg

05.jpg

Thanks
Tasos
Epos Laboratory

[EposLab]

..I found some time today and manage to make a comparison test! All 3 "cuts" used the same equipment , same track sample and shared the same settings! Each track used a single side of 7" disk and playbacked at 45rpm!
All angles were 87-90 degree and tracking force applied for groove width abit more than 3mil (except the Ruby which was really noisy so I had to lower the tracking force to reduce the background noise ,then groove width was around 2.5 mil).
I have to notice that condition of Ruby cone is New, Sapphire cone had already more than 7 hours of use and finally my Tungsten has about 1/2 hour of use! Also this time I used the Sapphire I became alittle more background noise that I mostly get but other than that fidelity remains the same!

The sample track I used is "Lovers" performed by Kathleen Battle and I decided to use this track because I LOVE IT and also because I feel is a more difficult track for cutting! The following files are both the same but are different in sample rate (44.1kHz & 48kHz).
RUBY cone = 0:00
SUPPHIRE cone = 1:32
(my) TUNGSTEN = 3:04

Lovers_COMPARISSON(44).mp3

Lovers_COMPARISSON(48).mp3

This was not Loud-cutted as my system is Microgroove setted (@270LPI) so the volume is just on the limit. Personally I don't have any problem with that and I cannot be more happy with the results I got but i'm really interesting if someone can make one stylus and try some loud cuts so we can see if can handle and what are the resonants of the stylus!
Hope you'll enjoy this as I do

[EposLab]

Got the time to be more fair will the both cones!
After examining both I noticed that Sapphire was still good (even after that long use) but I decided to twist it 90 degree so I would used the untouched points of the cone. That make more the same background noise but when I reduced the force (so groove width was less than 3mil) it was more quiet!
My Tungsten was in need of a more "accurate" polish (which was inferior of that in Sapphire) so I took some time for it! Even after the polish was still dead quiet but I had to match the groove width (similar to Sapphire) by adjusting the force!
So here we are! Considering that both cones are "Fresh" I started work on the same track!

Sapphire @ 0:00
Tungsten @ 1:32

Lovers_FinalComp(48).mp3

[jjwharris]

This sounds great.

What are you using for the tungsten? Welding rod?

I've also struggled to find 1.5mm aluminium, except as brazing rod. What sort of weight are you embossing with?

Once I've got my lathe finished I am very eager to give this a go.

[EposLab]

This sounds great.

What are you using for the tungsten? Welding rod?

I've also struggled to find 1.5mm aluminium, except as brazing rod. What sort of weight are you embossing with?

Once I've got my lathe finished I am very eager to give this a go.

Its a K10 Tungsten rod , I don't really know if its used for welding but i know that is really Much-Harder than the 1.5mm Solid Tungsten stylus i was using!
The aluminium is 1.6mm diameter and fits perfect inside the 1-D so it leaves no space to tolerate!
Even i am so satisfied with the results i noticed there's some resonance which distorts the sound. Not really sure if its caused of aluminium - tungsten material resonances or because a "wrong" manufacturing process? But hey its a research and these are my first a/b tests

[Fela Borbone]

20200311_163204.jpg

Hello,
This recordings sounds great!
...and nice song!
I grind my own stylus too, for my use and some friends. They have a aluminum shank but carbide point. I tryed tungsten in the past, and carbide perform more or less the same (Did not extensive tests) but I get carbide in a more convenient shape.
Instead of cones, I grind triangles, to emboss uprigth relative to the record. I expect more detail in the groove, but the elastic limits ot the plastic don't seem to care too much about sharp shapes.

20200311_163512.jpg

This is the tool I use as a template for sharpening, all angles of the point can be adjusted. Also fits in my microscope, so I can inspect the point attached to it.

My concern is the glue.I think its very important to choose an stiff one. I tryed some different, but ended using old good cianocrilate (Super glue).Which one is your favourite?
Regards,
Fela.

[EposLab]

The glue i use for fast check is the Super Glue too because in case i need change something is easy to remove. On final step i use Liquid Glass (clear epoxy) which gets hard as glass!

I'm working on my mini-lathe and i do everything by hand! Drill , Trim , Polish , Cone sharp etc! Since its handmade you cannot expect Super-Precision but i do my best

IMG_20200311_185746.jpg

IMG_20200311_190253.jpg

One of these day i think i will try to install a 0.3mm boron cone in the same aluminium shank...just curious!

[helloheathen]

This was really great to read - great job. I was trying to get someone who makes tungsten embossers to do these exact thing! will you be selling these? I love trying new things - are you noticing deeper grooves at all with your tungsten embosser?

[EposLab]

In my Microgroove setup @270LPI i have not much space to go but i have reach the 3.5mil groove easily (90° cone). Using a Sapphire (or Ruby) i get way too much surface noise to reach that width.

As for selling now..i dont think i will sell any (at least for now) for many reasons. First is that my POST here didnt meant to "Advertise" something i like to sell. I had this idea and since i gave it a try and had nice results ,i had the feel to share these all with you!
Second is that I'm still in the "research" process which means that the "product" is still unfinished! There's a need of time for making audio tests, checking lifetime(stylus wear) etc.
Third and last is that they are Hand made! That means that even i mention the drawing , the whole process is done by hand and needs time for the more precise results. Also a sale require some technical support and a resharpening service which i cannot offer due to time lack. For me this is a hobby and not a job for living!
If again someone insist to buy & try a stylus ,well then we can talk about

Thanks
Tasos
Epos Laboratory

[jesusfwrl]

Excellent work! Although I would have preferred uncompressed WAV files for comparison, the differences can still be heard.

What is the "RUBY cone"? That was the noisiest and dullest sounding of the three. The sapphire is much better, but a bit sibilant (a tip resonance or even a glue resonance?).
Your Tungsten is the quietest, offering the most pleasing frequency balance. I wonder what kind of lifetime you will get from it, but all in all very good work.

[EposLab]

I prefer WAV too but i had not for the specific song i tested. Other than that i love this song and i found it to be more challenging than others to cut due to vocals!

Lifetime of the Tungsten is something i have to check. BUT the good news is that i was able to minimize these (resonances) with the use of Epoxy Glue ! I could notice the difference even the glue was not 100% dry!

[Vice Fiori]

good damn work Epos.
I know what you have do deal with this little things. I updating my stereo head and decide to make the torque tube using solid 2mm steel and made a 1.2/1.4mm taper hole with the 0.5mm "crossing" for the driver linkages and 1mm hole in the back.. aaah the love of suffering, sometimes i just ask myself "...why"...

[EposLab]

Why???...there is a challenge in it!

[EposLab]

..tonite i was able to make another stylus..this time using a 0.3mm Boron rod!
I'm curious about results as Boron is better that Sapphire. Is Lighter, Stronger and has higher Sound Velocity. I only hope it will not break..
I already glue it in place and let it dry for a day, so tomorrow will be the test cut..

IMG_20200319_214028.jpg

[jjwharris]

How did the boron go?

[EposLab]

How did the boron go?

I had a fast test cut but nope...its was not really good
I think is because 0.3mm is not really much so it is tolerating alot causing too much distortion.
I was thinking to look for a 0.5mm Boron (same as 0.5mm Tungsten I use) but after a fast google I had (about Boron vs Tungsten) , Tungsten seems to be a better option in terms of strength and elasticity . https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/Boron-Carbide-B4C/Tungsten-Carbide-WC
In other words I will keep go on using my beloved Tungstens

[EposLab]

...also interesting is a comparison between Sapphire and Tungsten

https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/Synthetic-Sapphire/Tungsten-Carbide-WC

[EposLab]

Instead of cones, I grind triangles, to emboss uprigth relative to the record. I expect more detail in the groove, but the elastic limits ot the plastic don't seem to care too much about sharp shapes.

. Did you already tried to make real cutting carbide similar to diamond design?

[grooveguy]

VERY commendable results, Epos; congratulations! A few quick questions if I may. Does your Rek-O-Kut leadscrew actually have '270 OI' (outside-in) factory-engraved on it near the big gear? I have the same overhead assembly, and was not aware of 'stock' microgroove pitches other than 210 and 240. I have those two leadscrews and really wish for something closer to 180. If others had actually been offered by Rek-O-Kut I'd be on a sharper lookout. You mention early-on that you have tried lubricants, but your grooves are extremely quiet. What are you embossing into (vinyl? polycarbonate?) and is your stylus angle quite close to 90 degrees, or do you 'lean' away from the point of contact? Also, have you tried a shorter length of tungsten rod so as to minimize flex beyond your aluminum stylus shank? What speed were these tests; they're so quiet I can't tell! Thanks, and keep up the splendid work.

[EposLab]

I suppose that the leadscrew is original as I did not check for any marks on it but it looks same old and the overhead. According on the chart that was posted here on lathe trolls I could confirm (and I was really happy about) that it is an 270 LPI (OI) and I can easily record 28min with lead in/ lead out grooves on 33rpm! I think is somehow rare to find this leadscrew but I was looking for cutting on more than 20min and i'm happy to have this! Bad thing is that I cannot loud cut and maybe later will look to find a spare 180 or 210 lpi screw so I can go alittle louder then.
Just for the information here is the list of leadscrews (picture taken from an Rek-O-Kut brochure)

m5.jpg

The lub I use is lighter fluid (zippo) and the stylus angle is 90 degree or maybe 1-2 degrees lean back. The groove width of these recording was around 2.5mil. It was also slow down recorded at 33rpm so it will playback at 45rpm. Blanks I use are Black or Transparent supplied from Myshank.
As you're asking about the stylus length, is interesting to say that it is effecting the sound. I first tried using a stylus with total length of 20mm and then I shorten the aluminium for 2mm so total was about 18mm. Low frequencies were a bit less and gave me the feeling of an overall more balanced sound.