Polycut and Tommie Thread

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mossboss
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Polycut and Tommie Thread

Post: # 17278Unread post mossboss
Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:52 pm

Its really weird that the thread had something like 2.5 K views
I just dont get it
Is the demand for cuts that great out there? and if so why do people only want to pay peanuts for them?
Or is it that Tommie had such a wide client base?
I dont think so
But of recent times it seems that this is the most visited thread on this forum here Regardless why 2.5 k odd visits?
So I would like to have some input on this as well as views if any one cares to elaborate or know
By the way, since this littel question does not belong elswhere its here at the treehouse so as to give this section a bit of a boost as well
Besides the handcrankers section, it has to go without any post's from me
Pity really
But since we lost JDC, as he used to handcrank a lot, it seems that there will be no friends going in the handrcranker area
JDC oh! he said so in his signature something about reproduction tra lal la
Cheers
Chris

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markrob
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Post: # 17280Unread post markrob
Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:47 pm

Hi Chris,

I think it was more because of the drama. I know I was tuning in for my daily dose of "As the Lathe Trolls" or "All of My Cutters"

Mark

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tragwag
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Post: # 18512Unread post tragwag
Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:13 pm

in my experience as an independent musician, most of my friends (myself included) have records made. It's a current thing, but some people want that extra something to make their release different, enter lathe cut records. When you google lathe cut records, you get this forum, and then Tommie's site.
the reason i got into this forum was through hearing of the process through Tommie's work, and ordering from him. It seems that the need is so great, and widespread, along with dissatisfaction that people are curious as well as angry.
making lathe cuts on a Presto 6N, HIFI stereo cuts on vinylrecorder
at Audio Geography Studios, Providence, RI USA
http://www.audiogeography.com

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piaptk
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Post: # 18521Unread post piaptk
Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:28 am

My label started with Peter King lathe cuts. I would have never started if I had to invest $1200 to make a record in the beginning. From there I developed a fan base and eventually moved into larger run records. And I know a lot of labels that are just like me.

Which answers your question about why people are willing to pay peanuts for it. People that don't have money, or don't have enough of a fan base to sell more than 20-30 records still want their music on vinyl. And there are a LOT of these bands out there. I get at least 5 or 6 random emails a week from people wanting me to cut them records...

If you make a product whose only customer base is poor people, you can't charge much for it or you won't sell many. People that have money/fanbases just do a full pressing. I've been offering good sounding $35 mono dub plate LPs and only sold 1 in a month.

20 7" records at $5 each is affordable...
100 records at $7 each is not if you know you can only sell 20-30 copies, which means you will be sitting there with $600 worth of unsold records and credit card debt.

And there are some interesting possibilities with lathe cuts that are not as easy/cheap to do with regular records, picture discs, square records, etc.

There is a HUGE demand for lathe cuts, but as we've stated over and over again, there really isn't a happy medium where the cutter covers costs and makes money and can still sell them at a price that is affordable for the buyer.

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piaptk
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Post: # 18524Unread post piaptk
Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Also, I think that the low price that people are expecting to pay is largely because of low prices traditionally charged by Peter, back when the NZ dollar was extremely weak in comparison to the US dollar (and I'm guessing other international currencies), which was perpetuated by Single Piece Slate and Poly-cut getting started too fast, with too much enthusiasm and optimism and being willing to do it WAY WAY WAY too cheap, and not actually realizing the full costs/problems associated of doing business on that scale.

It used to cost me about $3.50 for a 7" from Peter, including shipping thanks to favorable exchange rates.

Also, bands/labels have NO IDEA what actually goes into cutting a lathe cut, price and time-wise. I think they think it is about as involved as a CD-R. Anytime someone asks me about doing lathe cuts, I always send them a long rant about why I don't do them, and why they are going to have a hard time finding anyone else besides Peter and CorporateRecords.biz who will.

Corporate raised his prices significantly in the past year, and I still don't think he is charging enough. $19 for an LP minus $6 for a CNC cut blank = $13 minus stylus wear, gear wear, ruined blanks, etc $6 = $7/hr for his time.

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mossboss
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Post: # 18526Unread post mossboss
Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Well As I have said in the past There is an expectation out there that records or cuts should be CHEAP They are not pressing plants and cutters are still in a labour of love situation and have been for a long time since this bespoke pressing as well a cutting has come into the remaining industry
Not sure I agree with this Peter King argument
Peter as a pioneer in this charged what he thought was a fair price for his work in NZ Dollars
He lives there his costs are in NZ Dollars and he charged accordingly
If one wants to play with the currency exchange rate than it is a case of following the cycle which may not suit as a steady base for supply of lathe cuts
Not that he will retire on the Income however it is what the man worked out
I cannot understand why a poor musician wants to do stuff that is beyond him financially or for that matter have his fan base with lathe cuts at an unsustainable price to the cutter or plant due to his finances or inability to sell product
This is certainly no justification, may be an explanation as to the cause, well that's fine, we all know the effects of that
Besides I have yet to meet a lot of rich muso's or rich fans anywhere
I am sure that if they ask for a discount on the grocery basket due to their dire finances the grocer would have an understanding ear Yeah right

It is not that unusual to see every one jumping on the bandwagon with a pile of crap who want to cut and charge money for lathe cuts
This forum is full of aspiring cutters with a Wilson Guy hoping to make a dollar out of it
I have no sympathy for them or any one who takes that path after all the advise or answers to their questions which start of as a hobby than turn into a fee for cutting in the case of lathe cuts as well as all these potential record pressing guys with all the questions we get here
I at least discourage them rather than the opposite most of the time
So I am not very popular with a lot of these types however I have seen enough disasters to open their eyes as to the futility of doing it as a commercial enterprise while cutting as a hobby I have no issue whatsoever You cannot possibly start pressing as a hobby that's for sure
Even if they do not take what's been said to them once they are in it there is certainly plenty of help as well as support here by all of us that's for sure
A labour of love is what we need to make all of these guys aware off from the start Of course from than on it is up to them of course
It is a pity that this thread is the end result of the Drama as Mark pointed out rather than a successful operation where every one was happy
For every one to be out of pocket in this case its not the way to go about it The reasons why we all know here
Are they not Flogging a dead horse in the case of lathe cuts?
I am sure they are
The sooner people on both sides realise it is not such a low cost thing to do the better of they will all be
Cheers
Chris

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piaptk
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Post: # 18527Unread post piaptk
Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:26 pm

mossboss wrote: I cannot understand why a poor musician wants to do stuff that is beyond him financially or for that matter have his fan base with lathe cuts at an unsustainable price to the cutter or plant due to his finances or inability to sell product
Well, as I said, most bands don't understand what goes in to lathe cuts.

And it is certainly not only poor musicians that want stuff beyond them financially... it is EVERYBODY. That's just human nature. People aspire to things... These guys COLLECT records, they PLAY records, and they want their music on a RECORD, even if they know full well that their music isn't good enough or well known enough to sell 200+ copies.

And when you are not making any money at your music, and working at McDonalds to pay rent, you are not particularly concerned about paying the record cutter a living wage. You want it as cheap as you can get it. You are shopping at Wal-Mart, not the boutique, fair trade, grain fed, free range, organic, green, blah blah blah co-op.

And, with the price that has been charged by Tommi, Peter, SPS, etc, they felt like records were NOT beyond them financially. I don't think anyone suspected that something could be up and that the prices might be so cheap that the cutter would get in a bind and never get them the product.

Ultimately, it is the cutters fault... and not to kick people when they are down, but I told both Tommi and SPS over and over again, MONTHS before they imploded so spectacularly that they were pricing WAY too low. They were cutting for prices so low that I was giving them my records to cut because I valued my time more than they valued theirs, apparently. And I paid both of them their full asking price AND gave them the plastic to cut so that they weren't out that expense.

I feel like I have a pretty good insight into all aspects of this situation, because the majority of lathe cuts are bought by people in the indie, noise, experimental genre, with which I am intimately familiar and have been a part of for almost 20 years.

And, I've gone through all the psychological steps of the process in the last five years, and luckily, narrowly avoided the serious pitfalls.

STEP ONE: the unknowing musician/vinyl enthusiast who wants his music on vinyl, and knows it's not worth making more than 50, so he learns about lathe cuts and wants to buy them.
STEP TWO: aspiring cutter, looks into buying a lathe.
STEP THREE: Lathe owner, decent, early results, super excited, love doing it, want to do it for $$$
STEP FOUR: Jaded lathe owner who has done it enough to realize it isn't worth doing for anything but your own passion projects.

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mossboss
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Post: # 18528Unread post mossboss
Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:37 am

In short "Labour of love" which was pointed out
I can see that you agree as it is obvious by your statement
You saw it early enough not to fall in that trap, of course that is after from the time you had a few Prestos ganged up so as to meet the price break that drove you insane
As the old saying states: A wise man changes his mind a fool never learns
It would be wise for all of us here to make all these lathe cutting guys aware of the pitfalls which was the point in my post
That is regardless of the reasons, except as a hobby of course, as it is an easy trap to fall into
It is just to painful for me to see this wasted effort, $$$ losses everywhere with unhappy people all round
Does not make a happy state of affairs regardless of the reasons
Cheers
Chris

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MEGAMIKE
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Post: # 18533Unread post MEGAMIKE
Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:28 am

it is worth my while ..
you guys must have somthing seriosly wrong with your blanks and diamonds..
and as for thomas ,well he came across this but continued in his orders. simple.

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piaptk
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Post: # 18534Unread post piaptk
Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:37 am

MEGAMIKE wrote:it is worth my while ..
you guys must have somthing seriosly wrong with your blanks and diamonds..
and as for thomas ,well he came across this but continued in his orders. simple.
It is worth your while because, unlike people attempting to sell cheap lathe cuts, you charge a price that pays you for cost and labor. You are doing one off "dubs", not 30+ run lathe cuts.

I don't understand what you mean by the rest of your post, though.

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MEGAMIKE
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Post: # 18535Unread post MEGAMIKE
Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:41 am

no no i cut 20plus all the time and rarely cut one offs..
iam just saying and refering to other posts where all you good people cut 10 /20 cuts before ur diamond kicks it .this is not worth your while as apose to 100 plus cuts with one vr diamond ..

hes a 100 plus records i cut for mc hunter 7s and 12s
the 12s are going for $80 each .you can see mossys presses in the back of each cut.

http://huntersbx.com/

scroll down to the bottom

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piaptk
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Post: # 18536Unread post piaptk
Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:48 am

.

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piaptk
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Post: # 18538Unread post piaptk
Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:01 am

oh, ok.. I never saw your price break for 10+ records. But even if you are charging $18 for 10x 7", that is still 3x times what SPS and Poly-cut were charging, so there is still a fair margin for you (as there should), but it is going to be much more than most bands in the US want to/will pay for a record that they would turn around and sell to their fans. Because then they have to sell a 7" for $20+ to break even. I don't know about hip hop/DJ circles, but from what little I do know, it seems like selling an expensive dub to a DJ is more socially acceptable than a band selling an $80 LP to a fan.

I'm not even sure why you and I always get into this. I think we are just arguing on semantics. I still contend that what you do is not exactly the same as what SPS and Poly-cut did, and is not a viable option for most of the artists/labels who want "lathe cuts" and who were using those services. I know nothing about your operation, but you must have a different customer base than the market I am in. In quantity, your dubs are very reasonable, cheap even, compared to most stereo dub plates, but they are still much more than most bands or labels that I know would ever dream of spending on a lathe cut.

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MEGAMIKE
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Post: # 18539Unread post MEGAMIKE
Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:42 am

ok yes i understand now..
but i still dont get it that u had 3 lathes running but u were not happy with it..

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piaptk
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Post: # 18540Unread post piaptk
Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:16 pm

MEGAMIKE wrote:ok yes i understand now..
but i still dont get it that u had 3 lathes running but u were not happy with it..
Well, I wasn't running 4 vinyl recorders, I was running 4x 70 year old Prestos. And I wasn't cutting with a diamond and consistent poly blanks, I was cutting picnic plates and laserdiscs using whatever NOS sapphires that I could find.

Another problem, perhaps the most serious, was that at the time, I had just enough experience to be confident, and not enough to be competent. Now, I MIGHT be able to make a better go at it, but I probably won't.

Keeping all 4 of those machines running at the same time was next to impossible, when you set your price at a point where you are making money when you are cutting four at a time, but you are only able to cut four at a time because two don't work... you are not making enough money. Something would get out of whack with the head or the needle and the cut would sound awful, the swarf get caught in the tube, the picnic plate would warp, etc, etc. And you would keep cutting with the other 2 or 3 while trying to fix the 4th, and then because of not paying attention to the others, something else would go wrong there. I was CONSTANTLY putting out fires.

And also, testing four cuts at a time for sound quality and tracking, was another huge problem, because if 25% of the records you sell someone end up having a big skip somewhere in the middle and you don't find out until they've all been sold to fans, it becomes a HUGE nightmare, because now you have to figure out who is responsible for return postage, etc... and it's the cutter, because he sold a defective product.

Obviously it can be done.. Peter King does it, but I was not cut out for it. Too much stress.

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fraggle
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Post: # 18542Unread post fraggle
Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:42 pm

what is he up to now anyway?

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piaptk
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Post: # 18546Unread post piaptk
Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:24 pm

Who?

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fraggle
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Post: # 18548Unread post fraggle
Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:39 am

tommi

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SueDenim
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Post: # 18549Unread post SueDenim
Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:46 am

As far as I know, he's still doing his best to get back on his feet.
He was hoping to sell one of his 6Ns but the deal wasn't done the last I heard.

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piaptk
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Post: # 18557Unread post piaptk
Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:00 am

I just received My last order of records from him about a week ago. I think things are still pretty bleak for him.

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