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cd4cutter
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Post: # 3350Unread post cd4cutter
Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:54 pm

I recently received an inquiry from Doug6N about the RIAA recording pre-emphasis. Although I responded to him, I think this topic still needs some further airing out because I'm sure there is still confusion about it. So I'm repeating most of what I said to him for everyone who's interested.

As I've said before, the RIAA pre-emphasis that is required to convert constant amplitude recording is almost never published because most cutters never cared about it. Professional cutting amps had the EQ built in as a switchable filter, and the cutting engineer simply switched it into the circuit. The only time it was switched out was when certain testing was done on setting up the cutter head. Here are the RIAA EQ curves as applied to constant amplitude recording and playback:

Image



Curve A is for recording, curve B for playback by a constant amplitude (crystal or ceramic) cartridge. Note that this curve looks a LOT different from all the other RIAA curves that you've seen published and that there is much less level deviation from flat. That's because the commonly-seen curves are playback curves and INCLUDE the 6dB/octave de-emphasis required to convert a constant velocity magnetic pickup to constant amplitude in addition to the RIAA de-emphasis. So, if you've already got your cutter head EQ'd to do constant amplitude recording, you need add only the above curve to do the RIAA pre-emphasis.

Now, some particulars regarding the application to home and semi-pro recorders: I'm not really too familiar with the early semi-pro recorders which is what I would call the Presto, Rek-O-Kut and similar units. These were designed primarily for use by radio stations to do air checks, record local commercials, etc. before the age of magnetic tape (i.e. pre WWII). There wasn't too much standardization of EQ curves back then, even among the companies that recorded for commercial, public release records (Victor, CBS, Decca, etc.). That's why you'll find about seven EQ playback settings noted on the early hifi preamps that date from the 1950 period. RCA had been using an EQ curve that they called "New Orthophonic" in the postwar period, and they managed to get the newly-formed Audio Engineering Society to approve the curve for general commercial release use around 1947. The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) was also really just getting going then, and they adopted this curve for their official use as well. Refer to the RIAA curves shown above: The EQ presented by this curve had the original intended purpose of reducing rumble from the record pressings (by rolling off the bass response below 50Hz during playback - which requires a corresponding boost during recording) and reducing high frequency tracing distortion (by reducing recorded treble levels by around 12dB or so above about 2kHz - which requires a corresponding boost during playback). These EQ changes are with respect to constant amplitude recording which was the basic de-facto standard going into this time.

So, in order to understand what part of the RIAA EQ you need to implement, you need to know how your cutter behaves with no EQ. Crystal cutters are essentially constant amplitude cutters, but they have a mechanical resonance in the audio range which causes their response to fall off at higher frequencies. Magnetic cutter heads tend to have a pronounced resonance peak in their response below which they behave as constant amplitude and above which they behave as constant velocity. Most makers of cutting systems that used non-feedback magnetic cutters used some form of electronic EQ to try to make their cutters behave as constant amplitude over as much of the frequency range as possible. This usually meant that they had to EQ a notch or dip at the cutter resonance, then add some treble boost above the resonance. This EQ will be built into the maker's recording amp which matches the cutter head model, and you probably can't switch it on and off. In addition to this fixed basic cutter EQ, the amp may also have switchable RIAA (also adopted by the NAB - National Association of Broadcasters) EQ.

Long story short(er), if you want to make records that can be played by most people and sound correct on their home record players - all of which built since about 1947 are nominally designed to conform to the RIAA playback EQ, you need to implement some EQ in your recording that produces flat frequency response when played back with the RIAA de-emphasis. Figuring out academically the specific EQ that you need to add to your particular cutter is probably a waste of time due to all the variables, including the age of your particular unit. Your best bet is to attach a 10-band or higher resolution graphic equalizer to your cutter amp and use it produce the flattest frequency response you can get when playing back test cuts on a good quality stereo turntable equipped with a good modern magnetic cartridge played thru an accurate RIAA preamp. Use an audio signal generator (and AC voltmeter on playback) capable of covering the entire audio frequency range, particularly from about 30Hz to at least 15kHz. Set your recording levels to produce about -20dB from your standard loudness for these tests. You DO NOT want to record very high frequencies at levels above this for two reasons - you run a very real risk of burning out your cutter head because you will need to add a lot of treble boost to achieve flat frequency response, and even the best modern playback cartridges cannot handle high levels at high frequencies, so even if you manage to cut high levels, you cannot play them back accurately so you can't tell if your recording is correctly EQ'd. You'll need to make several tests of spot frequencies throughout the audio frequency range - record some spot tones over the whole range of frequencies, play them back into the AC voltmeter and measure the output level at each tone, adjust your recording EQ, repeat the test - until you come up with fairly flat results, i.e. the same output voltage on the voltmeter at all the test tone frequencies. It's tedious and time consuming, but it's the only way to get the result you want.
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cuttercollector
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Post: # 3353Unread post cuttercollector
Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:49 pm

All of this is filling in a few big "holes" in my knowledge.
Thanks for breaking it down for some of us who are here and trying with what knowledge we have. I have tried to make sense of the eq curves for particular Westrex stereo cutters and older mono Rek-O-Kut and Presto ones. Not to mention some of the older crystal ones. Some little home recorders use the same element for record and playback. Being as you say crystal and piezo elements are constant amplitude, what happens when an element like that is used for record and play? Do the curves complement each other to produce more or less "flat" overall response or "fight" producing a double boost or cut? This is not asking if they conform to RIAA or any other older standard. I know further eq is required for that, and also older cutters are not capable of wide response. Just does it do generally the right thing for record and playback? Treble boost and bass cut on record and the opposite on playback. I also know that the low frequency curve on piezo devices is governed by the input impedance of the amp it is hooked to. Too low rolls off the bottom end. I guess that is why ceramic pickups worked better with tube amps.

One more related question. With regard to your test procedure, some of us have tried what you recommend making a flat overall record/play response using a modern magnetic pickup and good RIAA preamp as a reference. But instead of an oscillator and volt meter checking specific frequencies, I have used a pink noise source and an RTA, adjusting record eq for flat playback response. What do you think of that idea?
Of course you don't cut at max level when you do that, just a little bit above the residual noise floor.

Thanks for helping out. You have "been there and done that".

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 3376Unread post cd4cutter
Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:06 pm

Yes, you can use pink noise as a test source and measure your result on an RTA. But the results will be more ambiguous and imprecise because of the noisy character of the signal. This would be a good way to start your process to get the response "roughed in". But I would suggest using the sinewave tones to fine tune the response after that.

Each transducer, be it magnetic or PZT has its own characteristic frequency response. Yes, if you use the same unit for both recording and playback, the peak caused by the natural mechanical resonance will cause both a peak in the recording that you make, AND it will cause the same peak to be ADDED to the playback from that recording. So, anomalies in the transducer will be doubled when it is used both for recording and playback. That is, unless you fix the problems with EQ. You will separately need to, for example, add notch EQ at the resonance in your record amp to flatten the response while cutting. Then you will also need to notch the resonance of that same transducer in your play amp when using it for playback. Maybe the very same EQ curve will work for both recording and playback, but probably not. The transducer behaves a little differently when being used as a cutter than it does when used for playback, so the resonance will move to at least a little different frequency, and the response both lower and higher than resonance will also probably behave differently when playing as opposed to cutting. You just have to experiment to find out.

Yes, crystal and ceramic PZT transducers are high impedance devices. Particularly the newer, better ceramic cartridges have a VERY high output impedance. You are correct that they require a VERY high input impedance in the amplifier in order to avoid loss of bass - higher, in fact, than that typically presented by even a vacuum tube circuit. I suggest making your playback preamp have around 3 MEGohm input impedance when used with modern, small ceramic cartridges.

You need a good playback system to be used as a reference for adjusting frequency response. Unfortunately, NO playback cartridges have perfectly flat response. If you really want to know what's going on, you need to find some of the good professional test records that were made during the 1960s thru 80s that were designed for measuring cartridge response and use them to calibrate your high quality pickup cartridge. These records were made by Bruel & Kjaer (B&K), JVC, RCA, and CBS laboratories, along with some others. I don't believe that anyone is making these anymore, so you'll need to find old ones, preferably new old stock (NOS) that have never been played. The other problem with these records is that they rapidly wear out, especially when used with poor cartridges and styli. Frequencies above about 15kHz get wiped out pretty easily in one or two plays with poor cartridges. So you need to find NOS records or ones that you can be assured are still in good condition. I know it's discouraging, but that's the state of things these days. It's always been a tedious project, but at least the equipment and records were readily available back in the day.
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Doug6N
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RIAA

Post: # 3397Unread post Doug6N
Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:46 pm

Hi CD4Cutter:

I was going to get back to you and just had'nt sat down to do it.

Aha!! I now remember one time seeing this particular curve. And thinking WTF it's wrong. LOL! Now with your explaination it's makes complete sense. And. Trying to use that published curve as the recording characteristic. No wonder it was'nt worth a darn. Somehow in all the years I've read about audio and it's quite a few. I've totally missed this. Perhaps because like you say it's never thought about. But as several of us have figured out. Something was wrong with our approach.

Thanks ever so much.

Doug

PS. Could you post a larger file of the pic. I'd like to be able to print it out larger or where did you get this from? And I'll hunt up the source.

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 3401Unread post cd4cutter
Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:00 pm

Doug, the original article that contains the above RIAA graph was printed in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (JAES) July 1959, Volume 7, number 3, titled "Automatic Plotting of Cartridge Response" by C.P. Germano. Germano worked for the Clevite Brush Corporation which was one of the early makers of crystal and ceramic cartridges. This is an excellent article and one of the few that gives good detailed information about the physics and characteristics of PZT transducers - it's well worth reading if you are working with these devices. The original graph is about the same size as the scan I have posted here and isn't too good for extracting detailed information. Since I was interested in making a proper preamp for ceramic cartridges, I worked out a pretty good graphical interpretation of the information by graphically subtracting a 6dB/octave slope from the published info for the constant velocity pickups. Below is the tabular data. Note that this is not mathematically derived, but it should be accurate to within a few tenths of a dB which was good enough for what I wanted:

Image

This table is scanned from the RS-211-D document published by the Electronic Industries Association (EIA) and represents the identical standards as adopted by the RIAA. The handwritten rightmost column shows the tabulated EQ in dB required to implement the constant amplitude (CA) RIAA playback characteristic. The printed column next to it represents the same data for constant velocity (CV) pickups. For recording, simply invert the EQ curve and negate the dB numbers (note that the leftmost column for CV recording is just that relative to the CV playback data). This should give you what you need to develop your own EQ for either recording or playback.
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Doug6N
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RIAA Ecoder Jamaica Style

Post: # 4361Unread post Doug6N
Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:15 pm

Hi:

Can anyone tell me the value of the capacitor above the 100k resistor which is above the cutter switch? Between A-3 And A-4.

I cannot make out the printing on the diagram.

Thanks in advance

Doug

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markrob
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Post: # 4365Unread post markrob
Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:48 am

cd4cutter wrote: The proper RIAA pre-emphasis curve for recording actually results in a fairly small amount of change to the response curve from flat, constant amplitude. There is about 6dB of BOOST at 25 Hz and about a 6dB shelf of CUT at frequencies above 2kHz or so in the resulting RIAA compensated recording. To envision what the correct RIAA compensation is for recording, you have to subtract the 6dB/oct slope from the typical published playback curve, then invert the result. The proper RIAA recording compensation curve is very seldom seen published since only professional recording equipment users ever had any need to know what it is.
Isn't the shelf cut between 500 hz and 2122 hz? That is the portion of the recording characterisitc that is defined as constant velocity. From all of the sources I've seen, the recording characteristic is CA below 500 hz, CV from 500 hz to 2122 hz, and CA (or pre-emphasized, depending how you look at it) above 2122 hz; with the boost below 50 hz, for rumble reduction (as you indicated). Aren't most magnetic cutterheads in use, CV devices? I believe my Presto 1D is. Acording to the manual when fed with a constant voltage input it produces a output that is CV flat from 500 hz to about 10 Khz. This can be verified with a light band test as defined in the operations manual. It has a built in -6db/oct rolloff due to its L/R time constant (318us) or 500 hz. So, to properly EQ a 1D to meet the RIAA, you only need a 6 db/oct boost with a turnover at 2122 Hz. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Thanks.

Mark

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 4370Unread post cd4cutter
Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:54 pm

Mark, I believe that you are correct. I don't have personal experience with cutters that do not employ electrical feedback, so I'm probably not the best person to advise you here. But my understanding of your cutter is that it is performing as constant velocity responding above its resonance of about 500Hz. This would be the natural result of its being a mass-loaded transducer operating above resonance. In other words, this CV response is probably a result of it's natural mechanical resonance, not necessarily because of any electrical equalization. Feedback cutters employ feedback to make their response constant amplitude over most of their range. This is done by adding electrical feedback to suppress the natural extra efficiency at the resonant frequency, and which efficiency drops off on either side of resonance. So, conceptually, a feedback cutter properly adjusted yields a CA response over its useful range. To get to the RIAA pre-emphasis, the EQ curve shown in curve A above is added. (This concept isn't exactly true in practice. Neumann and Ortofon cutters are actually set to provide CA response below 500Hz and CV response above 500Hz when in the "test" mode which is the test and adjustment mode that does not include RIAA pre-emphasis. This facilitates cutting test signals and test records with practical signal levels that do not excessively tax the cutter at high frequencies or the playback cartridge at low frequencies.) Note that the above chart represents flat CA response as a straight horizontal line. CV response would be represented on this chart as a 6dB/octave downward slope from left to right.

In the case of your CV responding cutter, yes, you are already getting the 6dB/octave downward slope seen in the area between 500 and 2122Hz seen in Curve A. To get to CA response above 2122Hz, you then need to add a 6dB/oct boost in the range above 2122 hz to return to the flat line above that frequency. Note that this requires A LOT of electronic boost at high frequencies from your cutter amp. This is why there is a danger of blowing your cutter when you try to record signals with a lot of HF information while using the RIAA preemphasis.
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markrob
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Post: # 4372Unread post markrob
Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:14 am

cd4cutter wrote:Mark, I believe that you are correct. I don't have personal experience with cutters that do not employ electrical feedback, so I'm probably not the best person to advise you here. But my understanding of your cutter is that it is performing as constant velocity responding above its resonance of about 500Hz. This would be the natural result of its being a mass-loaded transducer operating above resonance. In other words, this CV response is probably a result of it's natural mechanical resonance, not necessarily because of any electrical equalization.

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback (no pun intended). I'm not sure you are correct about the Presto head. I believe that this type of head is designed with a very high mechanical resonant point. The head is inherently a CV design that is CA below the L/R electrical time constant. Here is a link to my web page with scans of an analysis I found in a textbook (I can't remember the title, but I can track it down if you are interested).

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/pwpimages/Cutter1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/pwpimages/Cutter2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/pwpimages/Cutter3.jpg

This seems to agree with what I have been able to measure using my 1D head. Note the the 1D requires an external resisitor that is specified in the manual. This is used to set the 500 Hz. turnover. In practice it seems to me very hard to blow a 1D head. The coils are not moving and can use a pretty heavy gauge of wire. In my 1D head, the 8 ohm winding uses 30 ga. wire. To fuse this, it would require several amps of current for an extend time to fuse. The head distorts well below these levels. In the case of the pro moving coil designs, this is not the case as the coil winding needs to be as low mass as possible. I'm interesed in any comments you migh have here.

cd4cutter wrote:Feedback cutters employ feedback to make their response constant amplitude over most of their range. This is done by adding electrical feedback to suppress the natural extra efficiency at the resonant frequency, and which efficiency drops off on either side of resonance. So, conceptually, a feedback cutter properly adjusted yields a CA response over its useful range.
I'm not sure about this, but very interested (I'm looking tio improve my DIY head design). I have G.R. Yenzer's 1949 paper that describes the original Westrex mono feedback cutter design (2A) and he clearly analyzes the loop as velocity control. This makes sense to me because the feedback is developed from a coil that is mounted on the same form as the driver coil. The output of the coil is proportional to velocity, not amplitude. So, I'm not sure how the servo loop would function if the velocity output was converted to amplitude. This would require an integrator in the loop which would add an additional 90 derees of phase shift. That would seem to be a bad thing. I can scan the paper and add it to my web page if you would like to see it. To support your statement, is the description I found of the Ortofon DSS731 cutterhead.

http://www.etec.dk/disc-cutting.html

Figure 2 shows the open loop response (drive input to feedback coil output) with a constant current drive signal. This is very similar to the curve shown in the Westrex paper (the Ortophon head has a 2 Khz resonance vs. 1 Khz. for the 2A). But Figure 3 seems to show an open loop CA response. They also indicate that the feedback transitions from amplitude to velocity at 1Khz (they don't state if this is below or above the 1 Khz point). Perhaps this was done to avoid stability problems that would result if the the feedback was CA over the full audio range. Does this seem to fit in with your understanding of these types of heads? I don't know what Neumann does to solve the problem.

Anyway, this is an interesting discussion.

Mark

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Post: # 4377Unread post blacknwhite
Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:32 pm

markrob wrote:Here is a link to my web page with scans of an analysis I found in a textbook (I can't remember the title, but I can track it down if you are interested).
Markrob,

I'm sure there's folks here besides me who'd be very, very interested - please let us know if you can track it down, thanks,

- Bob

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markrob
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Post: # 4379Unread post markrob
Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:46 pm

blacknwhite wrote:
markrob wrote:Here is a link to my web page with scans of an analysis I found in a textbook (I can't remember the title, but I can track it down if you are interested).
Markrob,

I'm sure there's folks here besides me who'd be very, very interested - please let us know if you can track it down, thanks,

- Bob
Hi Bob,

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the book was:

Guy, P. J. - Disc Recording and Reproduction Focal Press 1964 I made copies of the relevant pages from a copy in Drexel University library when I went there to do some reasearch on disc recording. I remember the book being published in England and that is where this title is from. Hope this helps.

Mark

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 4380Unread post cd4cutter
Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:41 pm

Mark, those textbook pages are very interesting. And informative. As I said earlier, I have no experience with moving iron type cutters and cutters without feedback, so I was surprised to learn that they typically have a much higher resonance than is found in dynamic (moving coil) designs. The analysis does a good job of explaining the three modes of motion - compliance (spring) loaded, resistance loaded, and mass loaded. These three modes are present in any moving mechanical system as explained in the text. Without trying to figure out the particular mathematical analysis, I guess what we should extract from this application to your situation would be to take the empirical approach: do a frequency response test of your cutter without any deliberate electrical emphasis to see how your system behaves and where the mechanical resonance is. This would include a response run with and without feedback (if you have it). Then use the response obtained from the recommended operating mode and see how it differs from the flat curve for CA recording. Then dial in the required pre-emphasis to get to the RIAA characteristic shown in Curve A above. This is the most direct approach that will yield the desired result of correct RIAA pre-emphasis. Trying to figure out what your cutter needs mathematically might be an interesting academic exercise, but you would probably spend a lot of time only to discover that it has some quirky behavior that doesn't fit any theory of a simplified model. You would then be welcomed to the real world. This would especially be true if your cutter does not employ feedback - all kinds of quirky little irregularities will probably show up. Measuring its actual performance and then custom-dialing in what it needs to get to where you want is the most practical approach and the method I would follow.

As an aside, notice how good the performance of the Ortofon DSS-731 is as shown in your other link. This is the cutter I used to cut CD-4 records at half speed while at RCA Records. It was astonishingly good, and much superior to anything that Neumann had at the time for this purpose. We also had a DSS-731 in production in our New York mastering studios.
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markrob
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Post: # 4383Unread post markrob
Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:00 pm

cd4cutter wrote: I guess what we should extract from this application to your situation would be to take the empirical approach: do a frequency response test of your cutter without any deliberate electrical emphasis to see how your system behaves and where the mechanical resonance is. This would include a response run with and without feedback (if you have it).
Hi,

That is basically what I've been playing with (along with several other side related projects). I've done light band tests to see the velocity response of my head and compare it to the published Presto test. My head shows a resonance at about 5 Khz with a Q of 2. I'm not sure if this is due to aging rubber damping material or due to my home made cutting stylii. Still working on that. I've developed a computer based IRIAA EQ that has the 75 us. turnover and I use this along with additional parametric EQ to pre-master my audio prior to cutting.

I also developed a playback EQ that follows the CV curve and allows for adjustable turnover freq's so that RIAA and older pre-RIAA discs can be played back. I built a flat preamp to interface to a mag pickup and this feeds into the computer sound card line in. It works well.

I don't know if you have seen this article, but it has a nice explanation of how to use a ceramic cartidge.

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/pwpimages/ceramic_cart_1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/pwpimages/ceramic_cart_2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~markrob1066/pwpimages/ceramic_cart_3.jpg

Finally, I've been interested in writing some code to allow the capture and decoding of CD-4 discs. My plan was to digitize them at half speed to allow me to get the sub-carrier and recover the signals using a standard pickup and PC sound card with a 20 Khz passband. Then, recover all 4 channels and restore them to the proper speed. I would encode them to Dolby Digital surround for playback. Not sure if this would work, but I think it has a good chance. I started to do this some time ago, but then got the "lathe troll" bug, so its on my to-do list. Do you think this is a workable idea?

Mark

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Post: # 4385Unread post cuttercollector
Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:47 am

Thanks for the articles !
This brings up a question I have asked on this forum a couple of times in a couple of ways.
I have this crazy seat of the pants notion that you might be able to design a low mass piezo element driven stereo cutter, similar to what some here have done with dynamic speaker elelements, without feedback, that has a resonance pushed up to the high end of the audio passband due to low mass drive elements. Said devices would be high impedance with a lot of load capacitance. If this were to be driven off the plate circuit of an output tube stage through some value of DC blocking capacitor, might one be able to produce something that approximates the cutting side RIAA curve with minimal extra eq? I have had plans to try this experimentally for years and have not done it. The knowledge of the curves and time constants involved by the people on this thread might give me a clue as to whether I am all wet or on to something I should then experiment with.

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 4394Unread post cd4cutter
Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:19 pm

Mark, that article by Burstein is very good. I have built my own ceramic cartridge preamp using the principle of very high input impedance, and it works wonderfully well. Most people have no idea how good a GOOD ceramic cartridge can sound because they've never heard one used with a proper amplifier circuit. The Sonotone 9T series shown in the article was probably one of the best cermics ever made. It's too bad that the ceramic industry never took it a step further and put elliptical or line contact styli on their cartridges. So the use of conical tips is really the limiting factor in their ultimate quality. The best ceramics have very small piezoelectric transducer (PZT) elements to allow high compliance and a very high mechanical resonance which can then be well controlled with proper damping. This makes their output voltage pretty small. So I didn't want to use Burstein's recommendation of using a parallel capacitance at the cartridge - this cuts the output voltage down way too much. But by making the input impedance of the amplifier about 3 Megohms, a small element cartridge like the Sonotone 9T or the more modern Tetrad models works very well. You still need to add some high-midrange EQ to flatten out the top end of the response, and that EQ will vary depending on the particular cartridge. But I am a collector of record changers, many of which have ceramic cartridges, so I was looking for an amplifier design that I could use to get the best performance from those carts. So I designed my own with a super high input impedance and variable HF EQ and it works quite well. :D
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cd4cutter
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Post: # 4395Unread post cd4cutter
Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:38 pm

Mark, your interest in trying to decode CD-4 records by playing them at half-speed and then doing the processing in a computer is interesting. But it will probably prove to be more trouble than it's worth. You will need to do A LOT of number crunching. There are two carriers - one on the left channel and a separate one on the right. Each carrier is FREQUENCY modulated with the difference between the front and back audio signals, the resultant 30kHz FM signal under full deviation occupying the band from about 18kHz to 45kHz at real time. Furthermore, before modulation the difference signal is passed thru a noise reduction process similar to Dolby that has a midrange and a high frequency band. JVC called this the Audio Noise Reduction System or ANRS. The frequency bands and compression ratios are unique to ANRS - they are not the same as Dolby. Then, to account for the mechanical group and signal processing delay in the FM channels, the baseband signal has been sent through a delay line during modulation. So to properly re-matrix the sum (baseband) and difference (carrier) channels to get front and back signals, you will need to do FM demodulation of the two extracted carriers. Then you will need to decompress these difference signals through the reverse ANRS expander. Then you will have to check to see that the sum and difference signals are time-aligned and do whatever delay is required to make them so. Before you get to all of this, you will need to find a playback cartridge which has good frequency response and minimal phase shift up to at least 23kHz (half the 45kHz carrier band limit) with the very small groove wavelengths resulting from playing the disc at 16-2/3 rpm . This will undoubtedly mean the use of a CD-4 capable cartridge with elliptical or line-contact stylus. Which will still make some tracking and tracing errors even at half speed which will momentarily upset the carrier information so that you will get signal spits and noises that you will have to deal with. So when it's all said and done, you might as well play the record at real time thru a good demodulator and using a good cartridge and stylus. Others have suggested trying what you are comtemplating, but I haven't heard of anybody being successful with it yet.
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cd4cutter
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Post: # 4396Unread post cd4cutter
Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:54 pm

CC, your plan to make a piezoelectric transducer (PZT) cutter isn't really anything new. That's what all the crystal cutters of the 1930s and '40s were. I suspect that places like WestTech that now rebuild the old crystal cutters are doing so with modern ceramic materials rather than trying to resurrect the old Rochelle salts crystal materials. The modern materials are much superior in that they are not hygroscopic and are much more robust. Yes, such a cutter would be inherently constant amplitude (CA) responding up to its mechanical resonance. But getting that resonance up high enough to get good fidelity will be a near impossibility. To get the kind of amplitudes that you need to make at the stylus tip, you need a pretty large PZT element. Note how big the old crystal cutters were. This means that the mass of the element and associated linkage will be high which will result in a resonance somewhere well into the audio band, probably in the lower midrange. So to extend the response above the resonance, you will need to dial in at least a 6dB/octave rise, probably more if the resonance is more than a first order filter characteristic. And then you'll have to add the RIAA pre-emphasis if you want the records to play back on standard record players. It should be doable, but you run the risk of blowing the PZT element with excessive HF signal. Pretty much the same problem as with moving coil cutters.
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC

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markrob
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Post: # 4399Unread post markrob
Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:41 am

cd4cutter wrote: This will undoubtedly mean the use of a CD-4 capable cartridge with elliptical or line-contact stylus. Which will still make some tracking and tracing errors even at half speed which will momentarily upset the carrier information so that you will get signal spits and noises that you will have to deal with. So when it's all said and done, you might as well play the record at real time thru a good demodulator and using a good cartridge and stylus. Others have suggested trying what you are comtemplating, but I haven't heard of anybody being successful with it yet.
Hi,

Thanks for all of the comments. I'm sure its going to be difficult to pull off. Not sure if I'll ever get there. As you say, its far easier to just buy a decoder and be done with it, but I do most of this stuff as a learning experience, so even if I fail, I will still gain some knowedge.

Awhile back, when I started to think about this, I used a Grado Black phono cartridge, which has high freq. response to 50 Khz (or so the specs say). I did a half speed transfer to digital and checked to see if I could see the FM carriers. They were easily seen on a spectral plot. I then BP filtered audio in Adobe Audition to remove the baseband signal and tried to to slope detect the FM using a high pass filter set near the carrier freq. I got some results, but left it sit.

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cuttercollector
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Post: # 4400Unread post cuttercollector
Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:08 am

"It's too bad that the ceramic industry never took it a step further and put elliptical or line contact styli on their cartridges. So the use of conical tips is really the limiting factor in their ultimate quality. The best ceramics have very small piezoelectric transducer (PZT) elements to allow high compliance and a very high mechanical resonance which can then be well controlled with proper damping."


In a way, they did...
See:
http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonopc.htm
and then:
http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/micropg.htm

But only for use with the adaptors for a standard 3mV/47K RIAA magnetic phono input.
RE CD4, the importance of the line contact stylus, with excelent high frequency tracking ability, as well as the extended frequency response is critical for best carrier recovery.
Did you know that Panasonic had a non-magnetic, so-called strain gauge piezoelectric CD4 cartridge? I have one and the decoder. Sends a small bias voltage to the cartridge.

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cd4cutter
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Post: # 4403Unread post cd4cutter
Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:54 pm

Thanks for those links, CC. Roger Russell has some good info on his website. I met him at an Audio Engineering Society convention in NYC once. I told him that I had built his circuit for a dynamic volume expander which was published in an electronics magazine back in the 1960s. He blushed and didn't seem too proud of that article. I had to twiddle with his design a little bit, but it turned out to work quite well.

The info on Sonotone is enlightening. I remember that the 8TA series was probably the first of the really good stereo ceramic carts. I used to have one installed in a Dual single play turntable which was a derivative of the Dual 1006, and it tracked pretty well at just 2 grams. I wasn't aware that there had been several iterations on the basic 9T product. Apparently there was quite an improvement to that model thru the years. I do know that the 9TA models that I used in the late 1960s were very good. And I was not aware of the 100T which was apparently the swan song of the 9T series.

Thanks for reminding me of the Micro-Acoustics products. I was aware of these, but I never had any experience with them. I did use their Micro Point recording styli during my disc mastering years (along with diamond styli from Adamant and Namiki). The MA cartridges were marketed at the extreme high end of the stereo market (note the list prices), and I never felt like coughing up that much cash to try one out. But they did offer hyper-elliptic and line contact stylus shapes - probably the only ceramic cartridge to do so.

By the time the MA carts were being marketed, the Shure V-15-III with hyper-elliptic stylus was available and was blowing the doors off everything else on the market for less money than the MA models. Shure later made the MicroRidge (MR) stylus available for the earlier V-15s, and that combination was absolutely the best bargain I have ever used. I never found that a V-15-V was noticeably any better than a V-15-III-MR. And the Type III with MR stylus was WAY cheaper than the Type V. During this time, I had also become a fan of the Audio-Technica CD-4 cartridges for playing EVERYTHING. The Shibata styli which I first experienced in the AT CD-4 carts produced wonderfully clean sound when playing ordinary stereo LPs. Still today, you can't beat a line contact stylus in a good cartridge. But they are becoming very hard to find except as special order replacements. That's a real shame.
Collecting moss, phonos, and radios in the mountains of WNC

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