cutting both dmm & lacquers with one VMS70?

[grae.area]

i've heard that the power supply of the 70 actually allows the machine to cut both: copper and lacquers, unfortunately that was a vague statement unsupported with any technical details.


is it at all possible to remove the cutting head (sx74) and mount a dmm-cuttting head powered by the same SAL74?

the cutters i know in person are not really willing to share their "secrets" so i thought i might ask here..

[diamone]

I read in a magazine ages ago that Marcussen tried it once back in the 80s when DMMs were still new and fairly scarce.

Supposedly his DMM head went out from some trainee overdriving it and there was a project with a deadline that was too close to run it over to the other DMM house in Hollywood at the time - or fly the tape back East to have it cut there etc - or even to run it down the street to have it cut in lacquer elsewhere from everybody having been overbooked in those days.

Story goes he pulled out an old lacquer head, put in a new stylus and cut the record in lacquer and sent it in to be plated and pressed on the original schedule. They ran test pressings with it for label brass and I guess somebody or somebodies wanted some changes to who-knows-what - because by the time it came to reschedule the mastering session for wide release, the DMM head was back from repair and the session went on as planned a month later.

Supposedly whatever the producer/artist was hated the lacquer session so vehemently that they had everything destroyed from it except the master mixdown tape - so if anybody finds out what the album was (1984) it would be interesting to see if any of the lacquer audition pressings remain to see if there's much difference or not other than the technical specs and the overly brittle sound of a DMM and etc etc etc.

Whether it works the other way around - i e whether you can put a DMM head and a diamond stylus onto a lacquer amp I dunno.

[Aussie0zborn]

Considering you can stop the VMS70 turntable by hand while its running.... I don't think so.

I read somewhere that DMM was developed using a modified VMS70 with a different turntable motor. You would need a different suspension box and probably amps. These two things would be impossible to find.

Why don't you ask Flo? He might even know where that lathe is.

[jjgolden]

Some of the DMM lathes were also converted back to lacquer cutting lathes. Who knows where those left over dmm parts went…
To my knowledge, Dmm has a hi frequency carrier, different suspension box,head, vacuum system, amp calibration etc etc… unless there would be a purpose built dual lacquer/dmm cutting system, it would be a royal pain and not practical to convert and recalibrate on a per project basis for both mediums with one lathe.

[Dub Studio]

I am no expert, but I believe that the angle of the cutting head is vertical on a DMM lathe (there is a signal used to compensate for this, so that the response is the same when played back using the standard angle). That being so, I am guessing the motor would be powerful enough (since a vertical angle would cause less drag) but the cut itself would need modulating, not to mention the mechanical hacks needed?

[dietrich10]

The head suspension box and vacuum platter need to be different than the standard VMS70 to cut DMM. There is a chance that GZ is using a VMS70 to cut DMM with in-house mods- but I do not know 100%

[TotalSonic]

You need a VMS-82 to cut DMM. To the very best of my knowledge, VMS-70 has NEVER been used to cut DMM. From my understanding the VMS-82 has higher torque and stability for its drive than the VMS-70 - needed for the extra weight of the DMM discs using copper plated steel substrates (instead of lacquer coated aluminum) - as well as to deal with the extra resistance of the copper chip against the stylus as it is cut out for the grooves. You don't need to "spin up" the platter of a VMS-8x in order to have it almost immediately get to speed, all you do is press Start and it almost immediately at it - and you can even lean up against the spinning platter and it doesn't slow down. Some VMS-82 DMM lathes have been converted to VMS-80 lacquer cutting lathes (done by changing suspension, cutter head, amps, and a few other things, such as ) - but to my knowledge there has never been a conversion done from VMS-80 to make it DMM compatible.
Beyond that - the SX-82/84 cutter heads needed for DMM that use unheated diamond styli are completely different from the SX-74 - and need a completely different suspension - along with a different amplification system (SAL-82 / 84).
I keep a list of what are to the best of my knowledge the last studios to offer DMM mastering at http://www.totalsonic.net/dmm.htm

(my credentials regarding the answers above is that I was the last mastering engineer to commercially cut DMM masters - at Europadisk, 2004-05, and previous to that was a production manager at Europadisk for a number of years)

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[GeorgeZ]

The head suspension box and vacuum platter need to be different than the standard VMS70 to cut DMM. There is a chance that GZ is using a VMS70 to cut DMM with in-house mods- but I do not know 100%

No, there is no chance cutting DMM plates at our VMS-70 here at GZ. We have no spare lacquer lathe so we don't want to do any crazy experiments
But I would love to have a VMS-80 lathe with a Lacallas head here...

[Phinster]

I don't understand the continuing love affair with DMM....

[GeorgeZ]

I don't understand the continuing love affair with DMM....

Eh, I suppose you probably have no galvanic department there and don't cut 3000 lacquers per month as we do with DMM plates... ?

I think, it is much easier and convenient to cut lacquers in a dedicated mastering/cutting studio.

[dietrich10]

The head suspension box and vacuum platter need to be different than the standard VMS70 to cut DMM. There is a chance that GZ is using a VMS70 to cut DMM with in-house mods- but I do not know 100%

No, there is no chance cutting DMM plates at our VMS-70 here at GZ. We have no spare lacquer lathe so we don't want to do any crazy experiments
But I would love to have a VMS-80 lathe with a Lacallas head here...

Ok so there we have it. If anyone could modify a VMS70 to handle DMM head etc it would of been Jiri and his crew

[TotalSonic]

(my credentials regarding the answers above is that I was the last mastering engineer to commercially cut DMM masters - at Europadisk, 2004-05, and previous to that was a production manager at Europadisk for a number of years)

Didn't see a way of editing posts here - but to be clear my post meant to say that I was the last mastering engineer to cut DMM commercially in North America - there certainly are a good number other engineers that have continued to cut to DMM in Europe, as well as the Scientologists continue to run two DMM lathes in their facility in California for their own archival transfer project.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[selectavision]

Some of the DMM lathes were also converted back to lacquer cutting lathes. Who knows where those left over dmm parts went…
To my knowledge, Dmm has a hi frequency carrier, different suspension box,head, vacuum system, amp calibration etc etc… unless there would be a purpose built dual lacquer/dmm cutting system, it would be a royal pain and not practical to convert and recalibrate on a per project basis for both mediums with one lathe.

Hi jjgolden!

At the moment I´m lurking for further technical informations about DMM and how it´s done. Do you know some details about this strange high frequency carrier? Was that used to identify the recording as a DMM or was it of technical importance for the cutting process as such?

Cheers, Martin

[jjgolden]

Sorry for the extremely late reply!
I'll refer you to Flow or others here who are more familiar with the technical aspects of DMM systems.

[boogievan]

I´m lurking for further technical informations about DMM and how it´s done. Do you know some details about this strange high frequency carrier? Was that used to identify the recording as a DMM or was it of technical importance for the cutting process as such

https://www.google.com/url?esrc=s&q=&rct=j&sa=U&url=/media/pdf/TELDEC_DMM_Technology-EN.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj-xLXo4ofyAhUFWs0KHWdACfsQFjAPegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw2m_1XWjK9fuMwFwMxp5nC7

[Aussie0zborn]

There is no HF carrier.

[Phinster]

RF heating is used so the diamond cuts the copper smoothly...

[flozki]

There is no RF heating..
The hf pattern is a side effect caused by copper.stylus geometry and torque tube.it was a very clever move from teldec to claim it as an invention...but it just happens..