Chip Removal

[Doug6N]

Hi again:

Anyone know what kind of vacuum pump was originaly used for this purpose? I have a great system with a vacuum cleaner. Way too noisey though.

A quiet suction pump? Does such a thing exist?

Thanks

Doug

[JayDC]

I dunno about quiet, but I use a wall mount shop vac (garage vac) that I mounted on the other end of the room. Far enough away that the vibrations and noise don't make it to the record. I wired it to an outlet with a switch I mounted very close to the cutter. The unit has pretty high suction, I think it's about 10' away.

I suppose one of those central vac systems would be pretty quiet, just don't forget to catch the chip with a water bong.

[Amp Doc]

I have a idea on this using a 8inch 240v fan. If you "funnel" the input to the fan down to say 1/2inch and the output of the fan down to say 6inch and make the input "funnel" 12inch long and the output funnel 6inch long the venturi effect should create quite a large suction like a expansion chamber on a 2 stroke exaust. I have not tested this but I use a simular setup on pa amps to cool the heatsinks by using a 4inch fan "pulling the air" through a 2in X 1inch heatsink. We worked out it doubled the air speed through the heatsink and it knocked 10oC off the full power running temp. This setup would be quite enough to mount near the lathe. I am going to test this setup next week so I will let you know.

[Doug6N]

Hi:

Yep. Using the water bong arrangement. Had'nt thought of the implications of that.

Eventually I want to do some direct recording from the mic to disc. Hence the vacuum running in the background is not so cool. I live in an apartment so even putting it out on the lanai I can still hear it.

I seen pictures of pumps that were originally used. And all I have for a name is "Grunow Pump" Been unable to locate anything specific to this on the net.

There is a German made vacuum cleaner is this perfectly quiet but costs over $400. Not ready for that yet. But may be the answere. In the meantime I'm sniffing around to see what I can find.

Doug

[JayDC]

Think distance.

Use PVC for the long lengths. Just put the switch close to the cutter.

I pretty sure any silent vacuum pump is going to be expensive, unless you really research it, and get a great deal on ebay.

[Steve E.]

test test test.

[grooveguy]

The best vacuum motors, in my opinion, are the ones made by Lamb Electric. These are multi-stage turbines, anywhere from 3 stacked rotors up to 7 or 8. The absolute best is the one that runs with an AC induction motor at a conservative 1750 r.p.m. These are sometimes available on the surplus market, but were originally (and remain!) horrifically expensive. they are very quiet but take about 20 seconds to come up to speed. Vacuum pressure is uniform over any intake size, and on a 3/8-inch surgical tubing hose to the 'bong' (I like that name!) it really sucks!

The alternative is the Lamb vacuum motor that uses a "universal" AC/DC motor using brushes, like an AC electric drill. This motor generally has fewer turbine stages, and when the air is restricted the motor really winds up to a very high speed and starts to get hot. I use one of these on my lathe, and have it suspended with springs inside an insulated wooden box. It sits right below the turntable and causes no vibration or noise to speak of. I throttled down the voltage to this motor to about 60VAC, which gives more than adequate suction without the motor trying to tear itself apart. It will run for hours without heating up, even in the carpet-lined box.

The more popular Lamb vacuum pump (with the universal motor) is often found on the surplus market, and is even used in high-end garage vacuum cleaners and, I believe, on the Rainbow home vacuum cleaners. Contact me off-list with a private message if you want some photos of the installation.

Jim Wood

[harper]

Ive been rigging up a vacccum system the last couple of days, using a compressor that was originaly used for a screen printing exposure suction table. It has an air intake and output, ran a tube from the intake to a glass bottle with water inside to collect the hairs, "water bong method" punched 2 holes in the lid for the tubes and sealed it with hot glue (hot glue is the best way for semi-perment adhesion, so you can pop it off neatly until you get it right) and then ran another smaller tube back out and stuck it right next to the cutting head. Works aok right now... now i need to isolate the sound inside a soundproof box....

[MEGAMIKE]

HI
I have an old speaker sub box that i encased my industale vacum ,with pading and in and out holes..be sure that the box is much larger than the vacum and that the vacum is a wet and dry one heating will be a problem if it is a house hold vacum. its great no noise :

[grooveguy]

Good job, MegaMike,

That's pretty much the same thing I did and it is quiet. I found that the voltage to the motor could be cut back substantially and still give enough suction; this really helps to keep the motor from overheating. Most vacuums "run-up," or increase their speed when the air supply is cut off, as in recording when it's choked back by a small tube to the cutterhead. As the speed increases the suction really doesn't go up much, so by dropping the voltage 20% or so, it still 'sucks' and then won't overheat. A hardware-store light dimmer works pretty well for this, but a better way is to take a 24V, 5A filament transformer and wire it with the proper phase to reduce the line voltage by 24V. Apply the full line voltage to the primary, then put the secondary in series with the motor. One hookup will increase the voltage by 24V, the opposite polarity will reduce it by this amount.

[MEGAMIKE]

thanks. i will try.

[JayDC]

vacuums suck..

[uvoscillator]

hey trolls ! just planning to start cutting after year of embossing, so trying to find good vacuum locally...
do you think this one with Air flow: 50 l/m will be enough ?

http://secoh.en.alibaba.com/product/225880627-0/Secoh_SLL_50_Linear_Pump.html

And what diameter of copper tube will works better ? 5-6-8-10 mm available
Thank you !

[boogievan]

Suction such as that provided by little tail-chasing thru-flo motors, such as the Ametek Lamb pumps that grooveguy mentioned, are "all's you really need."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ametek-Lamb-Vacuum-Motor-116309-00-116309-/280851935906?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item41641472a2

But, you would have to insert a "chip jar" between the pump and the chip tube nozzle.

You may eventually want to secure a chip harpoon. This is a long rod that can be used to untamp a chip "cork." This is a clump of swarf that can accumulate in the flexible tube, completely blocking the suction. Sometimes, only a right shove can push out a stuck clump, which can grow until it has the tube's inner wall shape, but also has uncanny solidity, rendering it a flash cotton wine cork.

If you want to add suction to your platter, it can be supplied by the same pump used for swarf suction. Just put the platter suction tube also into the chip jar... The harder part is adding the holes and vias to the platter, but consider the possibility of putting the platter hose under the turntable, rather than applying the suction to the spindle so as to maintain an uncluttered cutting surface and to preclude center hole chip from getting in the platter hose.

The pump can be operated with excellent swarf pickup at about 90vAC using a rotary dial Variac. Less pressure can work, but it's nice to have FSv at the ready for clearing out the tube if lightly clogged. Don't forget to give the nozzle a few "lines" of that white powder whenever it gets tweaky.

Salaam,
boogie

[uvoscillator]

thanks for the tips !
this vacuum not expensive, so why not to try it before I can find something more quiet...

[grooveguy]

My suction motor is from a cheap shop vacuum, but I run it at a reduced voltage, about 65VAC. This makes it a lot quieter, it runs cool, and provides more than enough suction to grab the chip when it's first thrown. The motor unit is suspended on springs in a plywood box that sits in the bottom of my lathe cabinet, and the box is lined with carpet padding. There's no vibration transmitted to the cabinet at all, and the sucking noise from the nozzle at the cutterhead is louder than the motor. This is an easy and cheap way to get suction, which you've got to have if you run a heated stylus. The link below shows how the motor is mounted in the cabinet.

http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz221/inojim/Motor_zps46f37e1d.jpg

[uvoscillator]

I see, but what about motor cooling ? No heating at 65VAC ?
Thank you !

PS I get 6mm inner diameter copper tube from friend, can it works or not big enough ?

[grooveguy]

Hi, UVO;

No, at 65V the motor hardly warms up at all. The motor, by the way, is rated for 120VAC for the US, and at full voltage will create a very high vacuum. At 65V it's more than enough suction. Some air is pulled through the system from the nozzle, and I guess that is enough to keep the motor from heating up.

Your 6mm copper tubing is close to the quarter-inch aluminum tubing I use up at the head, flattened a bit to go between the bottom of the head and the disc surface, and positioned right behind the stylus. That tube is short, about 30mm total. It is coupled to very limber latex surgical tubing that has about 8mm inside diameter. This goes to the chip jar under the lathe.

[uvoscillator]

Cool ! Thanks ! I'll try it ! I have one unwanted dust vacuum to experiment with them.

One more question about copper tube. I saw different pictures of different setups.
What is the best place for nozzle ?
I have not so much options. But right hand part seems to be useful...
Please look my sketch ! C is not possible for me, so seems A or D is the best one if will work.
Thanks !!

[grooveguy]

UVO:

Your C or D sketch seems like the best. The chip is thrown off the back of the stylus, so if you can sneak your tube into that spot, you ought to be good, even with a modest vacuum. When I first started cutting with a hot stylus (1961!), I had the tube in front of the head. The vacuum had to be very powerful to pull it from the back of the stylus, around to the front to suck it off the disc. I had many instances of the chip catching fire and fouling because of this. When I moved it behind the head, it caught the chip every time.

Here's a snapshot of how the tubing snakes around to the back of the head:
http://s830.photobucket.com/user/inojim/media/DSCN3850_zps0ac9c251.jpg.html

Best of luck, let us know how you make out.