Hi guys.
This is my first post after just registering and I am looking for a few bits of advice and possibly some pointers. Thank goodness this forum exists.
I have been wanting to basically be able to produce a record from cut to press for many many years. I am an avid defender of vinyl in the underground trance (dance music) community and I have done my very best with each of our releases to get the best masters for the cutting engineers and spend the money in the right spots to get the best records made. It's been a mixed bag thats for sure. We have done 11 releases over the past 5 years (although we didn't release anything last year because of the disaster results I got from the last record we did) and I have basically come to the conclusion, that in North America, getting an engineer to cut "Dance music" is like pulling teeth or herding cats. Why this is, I don't know? I recently had a track I helped work on go to press in Europe and it turned out amazing. I don't know where it was cut, but it was done in the netherlands and probably pressed at record industry. Point is, I am really really tired of fighting with cutting houses in North America to get barely acceptable sound to what I experience for releases that come out of the EU and the UK.
I find it sad actually that engineers here chicken out at the challenge (hey, if the french can cut smoking house records? what's new yorks excuse?). Now that's not to say all engineers this side of the ponds suck, but I don't have the money to continue experimenting release after release only to learn the guy on the other end of the phone is going to just pull out some BS like "I have been cutting records for 35 years, I know what I am doing!!" excuse when I call back after hearing a reference cut with its balls cut off, asking what the hell happened.
So, I am debating two things right now.
1. I have the money to do this. Oddly enough. But I don't want to blow it on something thats going to suck so thus I am here asking you guys.
2. I would like to do both, but I can't or probably can't so I am putting these questions out there to see what comes back and then decide which path to go.
Right now I have two opportunities.
One is to buy our own pressing plant, which we have used several times on for our releases to date. With mixed results (very poorly managed, but I know Jack, the operator knew what he was doing, its unfortunate he is retiring, but that opens up an opportunity for us).
This was the Vinyl Factory MMS plant out of toronto. we are in Vancouver, but we will probably put it in calgary or edmonton due to cheaper over head for space).
With that comes the obvious complications and basic questions of "how do you make money with that to keep it going in this current market for vinyl?"
Well we have a pretty good idea as to how to do that, but I need to know a few things.
1. PVC supply. I know there are two companies that are the main suppliers in north america, but I have no idea who they are and how to contact them. Any one know?
2. I would like to compliment our business by providing very short runs to other companies (but I never want to overload us). Would people here, once we establish ourselves as being able to provide a good service at a kick ass price, be willing to send their favorite clients for cutting, to us for pressing (but not for metal, we won't be getting into that)?
3. the presses are SMT and are going to be a pain in the ass to move, any tips from anyone who has done it? We are going to be picking up the full meal deal. Presses, boiler, cooling tower etc. It's a complete turnkey deal.
Price, well I don't really want to say. It's pricy, but not that bad.
Ok so its that, or get into the cutting side of the business.
There are two reasons I am leaning towards this option more so than the plant.
1. I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to our own material and I am pissed off that I can't get it cut the way I want it, when I want it (I have actually been sitting waiting for our newest release to be cut for 3 months because the cutting house main engineer I have been trapped with is seemingly unable to cut a dance record in a timely fashion), but I know that cutting this kind of material isn't easy and its easy to talk shit if you haven't done it, so I want to do it and then be able to speak wisely.
2. The cost of purchasing a cutting system is actually offset by cutting the masters ourselves to our specifications and then sending them in for duplication when we know they are good to go. Too many times I have been "surprised" but a master cut that went in to test pressing land that didn't sound anything like the reference cuts we got before hand. It's a real drag having to throw up your hands and say "yeah, I guess we will have to go with it" because of the costs it would take to go back, or because of promotions killed due to a delay in production. I would then also, after becoming confident that I can get what I want, offer the same to others in the trance community that I know of who have similar issues with getting their records cut, and charge fairly for that service.
Now then, I have found a possible mastering solution which includes an Sx74B SAL74 package etc.etc.
Price, around 30,000 US at the moment, comes up for sale the end of august.
Location, about as far away as you can get, and will cost a tonne to ship.
So, if you were me, which route would you go?
Thanks in advance for any comments and advice.
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Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1852
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
If you want an honest and realistic reply from someone who knows what they're talking about... you should leave your ego at the door before reading my response.
1. If you have only released eleven records in five years then you dont have enough business to sustain a pressing plant. Just because you love vinyl, it doesn't mean that you can press a good, flat and quiet record - and without any experience, too. Even with experience, things don't always go according to plan and then you get DJ-types coming in complaining about the cut, the flatness, the noise level, the colour, the shape - you name it. All of a sudden, these dickheads are experts on records and you, with your 35 years of pressing experience are suddenly reduced to a worthless human being.
2. What was the reason for Vinyl Factory closing down? What was the reason that Acme Vinyl closed down? How much was Acme's plant sold for??? You would do well to find out because that is the real value of SMT presses. I have owned both Alpha-Toolex and SMT presses and have kept an eye on their sale prices over the years. I would say SMT presses in operational condition are worth US$ xxx each. You can buy a 30hp boiler (150 to 170psi) or smaller depending on how many presses you are running from any factory close down or dealer for maybe $ xxx .
3. If you have the money to do this, you might think about spending that money wisely and send a master tape to ten different cutting rooms in North America for a test cut. Then you can really decide who can and who cant cut a dance record. You obviously know what you like your records to sound like so send out them tapes, get some cuts done and see who does the best job. There are some very talented and experienced people in the industry and they can do a much better job thatn you can - you just need to find them and take advantage of the skills and epxerience that they have (read: skills and esperience that you do not have yourself).
4. Once you own a Neumann cutting system like the one you describe, you are not going to run the risk of blowing the cutterhead just to give some DJ a loud cut - no sirree!! It doesnt work like that. Once you actually OWN this equipment, any person who comes in and asks for a REALLY REALLY LOUD cut will be treated with the contempt he deserves, would be labelled a dickhead and I guarantee you that your attitude to DJs and dance music producers and similar dickheads will change similar lines.
5. Why not invest in an existing plant? You probably feel that you know what a record should sound like and what it should look like. That does not mean that you can cut or press a record that would meet your standards. There are people out there who have 35 years or more of experience and bear in mind that it will take you 35 years to get to where they are. They did not miss anything out when they were training and they have learned a lot along the way - 35 years worth, in fact.
6. Did you know that the thirty-odd Hamilton automatic presses from Hub Servall In New Jersey, USA were shipped to Canada? What do you think the Canadian buyer is planning to do with them? You need to find out what they are going to be used for. They can be converted to plain old hydraulic presses that open and close to maybe squeeze a piece of sheet metal, but what if they are being used for record pressing? Where will that leave you with your two or three rusty old worn SMT presses? To see Hub Servall's Hamilton presses in action, see the Discovery Cahennel's "How Vinyl Records Are Made - Parts 1 and 2" on YouTube.
7. If you buy the plant, you will find out who the vinyl suppliers are - this is not hard to do. There are manufacturers in Asia and Europe, too.
8. I have moved SMT presses from one city to another and it's easy - you hire a specialist machinery removal company to do it and you just stand there and watch if you really need to. Don't try this yourself - these things weigh more than a ton and you need to know what you're doing before you decommission, lift, load and unload these things. You dont want to be under one when it falls due to your inexperience.
9. You can do one of two things... go ahead and do it just because many will tell you not to, or you can find people who have waht you want and work with them. At some point, you night invest in an existing business with an option to buy out the partners for total control in the fututre.
10. Cutting lacquer discs in Canada and sending them to, lets say, New Jersey for metal parts processing works against you but if this is your only option then there is no choice. All the time, effort and care you put into cutting is compromised if there is a delay in processing your masters. If you are a perfectionist and wish to press better records than what's available, you rneed to have your own metal parts processing facility in-house.
I remember a quote about starting businesses and the three most difficlut businesses were said to be starting an airline, building a railroad and starting a record factory.
You can do anything you set your mind to but for record manufacturing you need determination, tenacity, very very deep pockets and a wife that will understand this mad passionate love affair with vinyl. And one day, some dickhead DJ-type or even worse - a rapper - will come in and call you "chicken" (as you do) because you did not cut his record loud enough. If you intend to satisfy these people just remember that they will never pay the repair bill on repairing your SX74 but will still call you "chicken" for not wanting to blow it up. It is very satisfying cutting a hot record and having a satisfied client but I would hate to be doing this today where even DJs are now superstars AND producers and the demand for higher level cuts is getting ridiculous.
You can make a hell of a lot of money just by starting an audio visual rental business catering for the corporate events market with a much smaller outlay. You will have less headaches, two or three overseas holidays each year, more time to spend with your family, a happy wife, an overall better quality of life with and no ballbreakers to deal with.
1. If you have only released eleven records in five years then you dont have enough business to sustain a pressing plant. Just because you love vinyl, it doesn't mean that you can press a good, flat and quiet record - and without any experience, too. Even with experience, things don't always go according to plan and then you get DJ-types coming in complaining about the cut, the flatness, the noise level, the colour, the shape - you name it. All of a sudden, these dickheads are experts on records and you, with your 35 years of pressing experience are suddenly reduced to a worthless human being.
2. What was the reason for Vinyl Factory closing down? What was the reason that Acme Vinyl closed down? How much was Acme's plant sold for??? You would do well to find out because that is the real value of SMT presses. I have owned both Alpha-Toolex and SMT presses and have kept an eye on their sale prices over the years. I would say SMT presses in operational condition are worth US$ xxx each. You can buy a 30hp boiler (150 to 170psi) or smaller depending on how many presses you are running from any factory close down or dealer for maybe $ xxx .
3. If you have the money to do this, you might think about spending that money wisely and send a master tape to ten different cutting rooms in North America for a test cut. Then you can really decide who can and who cant cut a dance record. You obviously know what you like your records to sound like so send out them tapes, get some cuts done and see who does the best job. There are some very talented and experienced people in the industry and they can do a much better job thatn you can - you just need to find them and take advantage of the skills and epxerience that they have (read: skills and esperience that you do not have yourself).
4. Once you own a Neumann cutting system like the one you describe, you are not going to run the risk of blowing the cutterhead just to give some DJ a loud cut - no sirree!! It doesnt work like that. Once you actually OWN this equipment, any person who comes in and asks for a REALLY REALLY LOUD cut will be treated with the contempt he deserves, would be labelled a dickhead and I guarantee you that your attitude to DJs and dance music producers and similar dickheads will change similar lines.
5. Why not invest in an existing plant? You probably feel that you know what a record should sound like and what it should look like. That does not mean that you can cut or press a record that would meet your standards. There are people out there who have 35 years or more of experience and bear in mind that it will take you 35 years to get to where they are. They did not miss anything out when they were training and they have learned a lot along the way - 35 years worth, in fact.
6. Did you know that the thirty-odd Hamilton automatic presses from Hub Servall In New Jersey, USA were shipped to Canada? What do you think the Canadian buyer is planning to do with them? You need to find out what they are going to be used for. They can be converted to plain old hydraulic presses that open and close to maybe squeeze a piece of sheet metal, but what if they are being used for record pressing? Where will that leave you with your two or three rusty old worn SMT presses? To see Hub Servall's Hamilton presses in action, see the Discovery Cahennel's "How Vinyl Records Are Made - Parts 1 and 2" on YouTube.
7. If you buy the plant, you will find out who the vinyl suppliers are - this is not hard to do. There are manufacturers in Asia and Europe, too.
8. I have moved SMT presses from one city to another and it's easy - you hire a specialist machinery removal company to do it and you just stand there and watch if you really need to. Don't try this yourself - these things weigh more than a ton and you need to know what you're doing before you decommission, lift, load and unload these things. You dont want to be under one when it falls due to your inexperience.
9. You can do one of two things... go ahead and do it just because many will tell you not to, or you can find people who have waht you want and work with them. At some point, you night invest in an existing business with an option to buy out the partners for total control in the fututre.
10. Cutting lacquer discs in Canada and sending them to, lets say, New Jersey for metal parts processing works against you but if this is your only option then there is no choice. All the time, effort and care you put into cutting is compromised if there is a delay in processing your masters. If you are a perfectionist and wish to press better records than what's available, you rneed to have your own metal parts processing facility in-house.
I remember a quote about starting businesses and the three most difficlut businesses were said to be starting an airline, building a railroad and starting a record factory.
You can do anything you set your mind to but for record manufacturing you need determination, tenacity, very very deep pockets and a wife that will understand this mad passionate love affair with vinyl. And one day, some dickhead DJ-type or even worse - a rapper - will come in and call you "chicken" (as you do) because you did not cut his record loud enough. If you intend to satisfy these people just remember that they will never pay the repair bill on repairing your SX74 but will still call you "chicken" for not wanting to blow it up. It is very satisfying cutting a hot record and having a satisfied client but I would hate to be doing this today where even DJs are now superstars AND producers and the demand for higher level cuts is getting ridiculous.
You can make a hell of a lot of money just by starting an audio visual rental business catering for the corporate events market with a much smaller outlay. You will have less headaches, two or three overseas holidays each year, more time to spend with your family, a happy wife, an overall better quality of life with and no ballbreakers to deal with.
Jeeze that was somewhat intelligent for a response, if not... well typical.
Look man... with respect to ego? Stop defending yours.
WE (us evil bastards dance dj types) are not asking for miracles when it comes to our records. We fully understand, even if you don't believe it, what happens to the heads when cutting tracks with that kind of dynamic energy and volume. Which is why I personally spend WEEKS working with the artists in the production phases, literally ripping back into their work to try and fix and or improve on the master, right there in the multi-tracks specifically to make the cutting engineers life easier, and get the best cut possible. We do our part, but for too long whenever we hand over our masters its "McCut" instead of "MASTER" services. I want an engineer who isn't just going to say "oh dam, another dance record, better crush the stereo and clamp it to hell" for a response.
We always favor the most transparent cut possible. Our material isn't always about being "screaming hot" because frankly in my opinion that sacrifices what vinyl can do and I want ever record to turn heads and show people that for dance music, its the best choice because it sounds amazing - so screw playing digital sources. You know what I mean? I find this attitude from various people in your community with regards to cutting dance records somewhat silly. Who the hell for the past 20 years do you think has been pressing all these records? DANCE MUSIC ARTISTS.
We basically kept the business alive, and this is the treatment we get?
When we get cuts back from engineers that are weak, or pegged so hard, "Oh well you wanted it hot didn't you?" who never bothered to open up and read our instructions for the cuts, when we have records in our crates from some of the same artists we are trying to press, coming off labels in the UK or the EU, with great levels, and clean stereo - we have a legitimate point in asking - "Well, what do we do to get to there from here?" with a crummy cut to get it fixed. We are the ones trying to make it work for everyone. I am sorry some jack ass hiphop guy in your past life "forced" you to push your machines too hard. You know, you can always say NO! But be prepare to explain why, so you can have the guy go back and fix it.
Makes sense right? Keep the customer, keep your machine working, keep the format sounding great because everyone is on the same page? Sounds like - LOGICAL BUSINESS METHODS - doesn't it?
And we are willing to go that extra mile but for so long it seems that engineers here are almost trying to kill off their businesses by having a "just cutting some track this afternoon, probably another dance record..."
attitude about it. So when you ask why has Acme died? Well, I can tell you because I know one of the original founders who left the company some time ago and he told me why, and its why he left because he saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. DUMB ASSES IN CHARGE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BASICS OF CUSTOMER SERVICE. That's what killed Acme. Now I am speaking of the original owner group. I think the damage to reputation to the name was done for some time before the second group took over. But there it is again. Customer service. It so important.
But that was the reason why.
It had nothing to do with the "downturn" in the business. In fact, one of my partners in this, is the guy who LEFT originally because the business was being run by goof balls. So he knows all that stuff with respect to just how hard it is to do, but also understands if its run well, and it can be, its a viable and profitable business, but that is the key to making it work. And it did for many years while he was there. But that came from being good at understanding your business. Efficiency and paying attention. And I agree. Which is why we are looking at doing this ourselves.
As for Vinyl Factory and its reasons for closing? My understanding is that Jack, the guy who ran it, is now 71? and is retiring and there is no one to replace him. Combine that with really bad customer service at MMS and there you go. One two death blow. And that is the reason why I originally stopped pressing completely for a year to think this through. REALLY HARD.
BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE on their part and some goofy "35 years of experience" engineer, nearly killed my business! So now I am back with our original plant on the west coast working with a new engineer who "sort of gets it" but it still like pulling teeth. Do you think its reasonable to have to wait 3 months to get the master cut? No. I didn't think so. But we are getting there with this guy and I am happy to work with him if he nails it. Which is part of the reasons why I am considering going with the pressing plant. If he can do it for us,he can do it for other labels that are in the same boat, and if we can get the formula working together, rock and roll boys. Or do you not understand how that part of my industry works? We would be catering to a specific genre of music pressing records efficiently and cheaply to ensure it can help combat digital in the market place which is effectively destroying that market. I understand these other labels problems when producing records. And that is why I want to do it right for ourselves and provide the same for others. Makes sense? If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
With MMS it was always something that was a problem and it was silly stuff that should never have happened. And that is what drives me to want to do this.
I would get records back pressed in black instead of blue vinyl like I ordered and then be expected to pay full price for a repress into the color I asked for originally and then wait in cue again instead of "oh, yeah okay we totally screwed up, you are being pressed immediately and sorry for the trouble, let me give you a credit on your next full release for X percentage" etc. That's what I would have offered. 1. keeps the customer 2. gets another new record into the pipe which means more flow through to my other service partners... 3. the credit would be the cost of vinyl material. the cheapest part of the entire process.
shall I continue?
I would get over billed on labels for records I haven't even got catalog numbers for. My metal would go missing after 3 months and represses would basically go out the window along with the money it cost to go somewhere else and have it redone. I would get labels flipped for sides because somewhere someone changed catalog numbers in the art process on their end. I would get catalog numbers for stampers go missing between other catalog numbers that are still available and yet the excuse "well these things do have shelf life". Stupid stupid stuff.
Investing in an existing plant? Are you insane? With the poor customer service experiences I have had with two plants (we have worked with 5 different shops here in north america, so I am not saying they are all bad ok? - but I am not going to go into the others here -its all been very hit and miss). Unless I can walk in and start firing people who can't answer phones properly and take down information correctly, sorry, I will hire and train my own staff thank you, and make sure it's done right. It will be easier.
Now on to some of your other points. Let's take number 7. Yeah, well you know I would like to call these suppliers up and do some due diligence with respect to pricing, color availability, shipping costs for X weight, etc, etc. before I just jump in and "buy a record plant".
Moving on...
10. Yes, I acknowledge that. Cost of shipping stuff from city to city, country to country for one of the steps in the process is why I am considering doing this, it would help to reduce costs and keep quality under control. But I would consider the metal process the darkest part of this artform, as there isn't a lot of information available on it or how to set it up. Which is why I came here looking for some advice and suggests, not what you responded which was really a brick wall. So, care to offer some useful information on this process?
But it sounds like you are looking to get out of the business with the rest of your response in point 10. having become tired of dichhead dj types, so if you are bailing, let us know what you have for sale!
Thanks!
Look man... with respect to ego? Stop defending yours.
WE (us evil bastards dance dj types) are not asking for miracles when it comes to our records. We fully understand, even if you don't believe it, what happens to the heads when cutting tracks with that kind of dynamic energy and volume. Which is why I personally spend WEEKS working with the artists in the production phases, literally ripping back into their work to try and fix and or improve on the master, right there in the multi-tracks specifically to make the cutting engineers life easier, and get the best cut possible. We do our part, but for too long whenever we hand over our masters its "McCut" instead of "MASTER" services. I want an engineer who isn't just going to say "oh dam, another dance record, better crush the stereo and clamp it to hell" for a response.
We always favor the most transparent cut possible. Our material isn't always about being "screaming hot" because frankly in my opinion that sacrifices what vinyl can do and I want ever record to turn heads and show people that for dance music, its the best choice because it sounds amazing - so screw playing digital sources. You know what I mean? I find this attitude from various people in your community with regards to cutting dance records somewhat silly. Who the hell for the past 20 years do you think has been pressing all these records? DANCE MUSIC ARTISTS.
We basically kept the business alive, and this is the treatment we get?
When we get cuts back from engineers that are weak, or pegged so hard, "Oh well you wanted it hot didn't you?" who never bothered to open up and read our instructions for the cuts, when we have records in our crates from some of the same artists we are trying to press, coming off labels in the UK or the EU, with great levels, and clean stereo - we have a legitimate point in asking - "Well, what do we do to get to there from here?" with a crummy cut to get it fixed. We are the ones trying to make it work for everyone. I am sorry some jack ass hiphop guy in your past life "forced" you to push your machines too hard. You know, you can always say NO! But be prepare to explain why, so you can have the guy go back and fix it.
Makes sense right? Keep the customer, keep your machine working, keep the format sounding great because everyone is on the same page? Sounds like - LOGICAL BUSINESS METHODS - doesn't it?
And we are willing to go that extra mile but for so long it seems that engineers here are almost trying to kill off their businesses by having a "just cutting some track this afternoon, probably another dance record..."
attitude about it. So when you ask why has Acme died? Well, I can tell you because I know one of the original founders who left the company some time ago and he told me why, and its why he left because he saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. DUMB ASSES IN CHARGE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BASICS OF CUSTOMER SERVICE. That's what killed Acme. Now I am speaking of the original owner group. I think the damage to reputation to the name was done for some time before the second group took over. But there it is again. Customer service. It so important.
But that was the reason why.
It had nothing to do with the "downturn" in the business. In fact, one of my partners in this, is the guy who LEFT originally because the business was being run by goof balls. So he knows all that stuff with respect to just how hard it is to do, but also understands if its run well, and it can be, its a viable and profitable business, but that is the key to making it work. And it did for many years while he was there. But that came from being good at understanding your business. Efficiency and paying attention. And I agree. Which is why we are looking at doing this ourselves.
As for Vinyl Factory and its reasons for closing? My understanding is that Jack, the guy who ran it, is now 71? and is retiring and there is no one to replace him. Combine that with really bad customer service at MMS and there you go. One two death blow. And that is the reason why I originally stopped pressing completely for a year to think this through. REALLY HARD.
BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE on their part and some goofy "35 years of experience" engineer, nearly killed my business! So now I am back with our original plant on the west coast working with a new engineer who "sort of gets it" but it still like pulling teeth. Do you think its reasonable to have to wait 3 months to get the master cut? No. I didn't think so. But we are getting there with this guy and I am happy to work with him if he nails it. Which is part of the reasons why I am considering going with the pressing plant. If he can do it for us,he can do it for other labels that are in the same boat, and if we can get the formula working together, rock and roll boys. Or do you not understand how that part of my industry works? We would be catering to a specific genre of music pressing records efficiently and cheaply to ensure it can help combat digital in the market place which is effectively destroying that market. I understand these other labels problems when producing records. And that is why I want to do it right for ourselves and provide the same for others. Makes sense? If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
With MMS it was always something that was a problem and it was silly stuff that should never have happened. And that is what drives me to want to do this.
I would get records back pressed in black instead of blue vinyl like I ordered and then be expected to pay full price for a repress into the color I asked for originally and then wait in cue again instead of "oh, yeah okay we totally screwed up, you are being pressed immediately and sorry for the trouble, let me give you a credit on your next full release for X percentage" etc. That's what I would have offered. 1. keeps the customer 2. gets another new record into the pipe which means more flow through to my other service partners... 3. the credit would be the cost of vinyl material. the cheapest part of the entire process.
shall I continue?
I would get over billed on labels for records I haven't even got catalog numbers for. My metal would go missing after 3 months and represses would basically go out the window along with the money it cost to go somewhere else and have it redone. I would get labels flipped for sides because somewhere someone changed catalog numbers in the art process on their end. I would get catalog numbers for stampers go missing between other catalog numbers that are still available and yet the excuse "well these things do have shelf life". Stupid stupid stuff.
Investing in an existing plant? Are you insane? With the poor customer service experiences I have had with two plants (we have worked with 5 different shops here in north america, so I am not saying they are all bad ok? - but I am not going to go into the others here -its all been very hit and miss). Unless I can walk in and start firing people who can't answer phones properly and take down information correctly, sorry, I will hire and train my own staff thank you, and make sure it's done right. It will be easier.
Now on to some of your other points. Let's take number 7. Yeah, well you know I would like to call these suppliers up and do some due diligence with respect to pricing, color availability, shipping costs for X weight, etc, etc. before I just jump in and "buy a record plant".
Moving on...
10. Yes, I acknowledge that. Cost of shipping stuff from city to city, country to country for one of the steps in the process is why I am considering doing this, it would help to reduce costs and keep quality under control. But I would consider the metal process the darkest part of this artform, as there isn't a lot of information available on it or how to set it up. Which is why I came here looking for some advice and suggests, not what you responded which was really a brick wall. So, care to offer some useful information on this process?
But it sounds like you are looking to get out of the business with the rest of your response in point 10. having become tired of dichhead dj types, so if you are bailing, let us know what you have for sale!
Thanks!
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so still dog
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:51 pm
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cuttercollector
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:49 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
Wow....
Kind of makes me not want to play anymore. I guess it has always been about egos and business.
My dream is to just cut direct location discs of accoustic groups in nice sounding spaces with simple micing and nice punchy sound with excelent transparancy and transients.
That is waht vinyl is best at.
It is NOT good at waveforms that look like a solid block on your computer compressed to within a gnats eylash of digital zero.
I find this is true of most modern rock.
I am dating myself. I am 53 and have studied this stuff my whole life. I have only played with disc cutting or as recording engineer as an amature however. My business has been hooking up A/V wires.
I find that dance music does seem to have more in the way of bass dynamics. This is of course the hardest thing to achieve on vinyl, especially with stereo. What I am surprised at is that anything in the clubs can faithfully track anything with lots of LF punch that is cut hot. These are not audiophile turntables or cartridges.
There is no "brick wall", level wise, on vinyl like there is with digital.
But there are limits to play back without jumping out of grooves and to cut without blowing things up.
I freely admit not knowing what I am talking about with respect to the industry, but nobody seems to get the concept that the closer you get to the physical limitations of the media, the less "room" you have for dynamics. You can't really have it "as loud as possible" and "louder still on peaks". In sampling a wide variety of records on playback, I find that it only takes about a 6-10 db variation in level to make the peaks sound dynamic and punchy over the average program. (I am generalizing for all types of music here) So people who don't understand this sort of thing and want ultra hot AND punchy cuts (unless by punchy you mean hearing the compressor lower the level on every kick hit) don't get it. What "mastering" has become (for all media) is "make-everything-as-loud-as-possible". It did mean - 30 years ago - to someone who was intelegent at least - to apply what ever minimal amount of judicious compression or gain riding needed and whatever eq to make a record that would sound as much like the master tape as the cutters and playback hardware would allow. I think the other trend that has been extended to the present time was the idiots that just insisted on pegging everything all the time so their 45 single would play "louder" on the air or in jukeboxes so it would "stand out" and people would "take notice". Never mind the distortion in the wall of sound. Of course that begat an entire school of liking things to sound that way. If that's the case - well - why not low bitrate mp3s. If sound does not matter anyway...
But I probably don't get it.
Sorry for the old guy rant.
BTW,
I do know two very nice people in LA who cut drum n bass dub plates for clubs there. Their names are Sue and Oscar and their business is called Turnstyle Records....
http://www.turnstylerecords.com/
Kind of makes me not want to play anymore. I guess it has always been about egos and business.
My dream is to just cut direct location discs of accoustic groups in nice sounding spaces with simple micing and nice punchy sound with excelent transparancy and transients.
That is waht vinyl is best at.
It is NOT good at waveforms that look like a solid block on your computer compressed to within a gnats eylash of digital zero.
I find this is true of most modern rock.
I am dating myself. I am 53 and have studied this stuff my whole life. I have only played with disc cutting or as recording engineer as an amature however. My business has been hooking up A/V wires.
I find that dance music does seem to have more in the way of bass dynamics. This is of course the hardest thing to achieve on vinyl, especially with stereo. What I am surprised at is that anything in the clubs can faithfully track anything with lots of LF punch that is cut hot. These are not audiophile turntables or cartridges.
There is no "brick wall", level wise, on vinyl like there is with digital.
But there are limits to play back without jumping out of grooves and to cut without blowing things up.
I freely admit not knowing what I am talking about with respect to the industry, but nobody seems to get the concept that the closer you get to the physical limitations of the media, the less "room" you have for dynamics. You can't really have it "as loud as possible" and "louder still on peaks". In sampling a wide variety of records on playback, I find that it only takes about a 6-10 db variation in level to make the peaks sound dynamic and punchy over the average program. (I am generalizing for all types of music here) So people who don't understand this sort of thing and want ultra hot AND punchy cuts (unless by punchy you mean hearing the compressor lower the level on every kick hit) don't get it. What "mastering" has become (for all media) is "make-everything-as-loud-as-possible". It did mean - 30 years ago - to someone who was intelegent at least - to apply what ever minimal amount of judicious compression or gain riding needed and whatever eq to make a record that would sound as much like the master tape as the cutters and playback hardware would allow. I think the other trend that has been extended to the present time was the idiots that just insisted on pegging everything all the time so their 45 single would play "louder" on the air or in jukeboxes so it would "stand out" and people would "take notice". Never mind the distortion in the wall of sound. Of course that begat an entire school of liking things to sound that way. If that's the case - well - why not low bitrate mp3s. If sound does not matter anyway...
But I probably don't get it.
Sorry for the old guy rant.
BTW,
I do know two very nice people in LA who cut drum n bass dub plates for clubs there. Their names are Sue and Oscar and their business is called Turnstyle Records....
http://www.turnstylerecords.com/
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dietrich10
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- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:18 pm
- Location: usa
- Contact:
The setup costs for buying the MMS gear at the giveaway price is insane. not to mention learning the basics to press. boiler pressure and temp. the cooling tower etc etc
even with cutting the learning curve is ....
If you have the $ to invest in this I do not see why you do not cut with someone in europe. Ship the lacquers over and plate for a north american pressing plant. the plants that are left are solid.
even with cutting the learning curve is ....
If you have the $ to invest in this I do not see why you do not cut with someone in europe. Ship the lacquers over and plate for a north american pressing plant. the plants that are left are solid.
cutting lacquers-vms70 system
I will definitely check them out.dietrich10 wrote:The setup costs for buying the MMS gear at the giveaway price is insane. not to mention learning the basics to press. boiler pressure and temp. the cooling tower etc etc
even with cutting the learning curve is ....
If you have the $ to invest in this I do not see why you do not cut with someone in europe. Ship the lacquers over and plate for a north american pressing plant. the plants that are left are solid.
As for cutting in the EU, yeah that is an option. We may just continue to do that if the next release doesn't - cut it. but it seems we will get what we want out of this next one. It just too way way too long to get done.
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Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1852
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Sorry for the arrogance but I have heard this way too many times before.
Your customer service approach is definitely the right way to go but when someone has thirty five years of experience, this is something not to be scoffed at, but rather something to be admired. You can certainly learn a lot of things from these people. Customer service is key to running a sucessful business regardless of industry but running a business such as record pressing requires a lot of different technical skill sets. If you have all of the above, then you are on the right track.
This still doesn't answer the question as to why European cuts sound better than your local cuts of the same track. This is the mystery you need to solve but Im sure the Europeans are using the same gear so Im guessing its a matter fo finding a cutting engineer who has a feel for your genre of music.
I never had any problems with DJ types or rappers as there weren't many of them around up until 1991 when my vinyl days concluded. But from what I understand, the difficulty these days is:
* poor recordings from home studios (poor = they dont translate well to vinyl due to phase issues or home recordists thinking they can pan the low freqencies)
* unrealistic expectations in terms of level
* not understanding that you cannot fit a square peg into a round hole
* dealing with people who were born in the digital era and have no understanding of analogue.
* semi-professional recordings that were made with a "digital ear" rather than an "analogue ear".
Cutting records today would be very different than it was in the heyday of vinyl where almost every recording came out of a professional studio. I wouldn't like to be doing it today, thats for sure. Maybe the business needs a new breed and it sounds like you are it.
If you go ahead with buying the plant, you need to keep as many experienced people on board as possible.
I wish you all the best. Contact me via PM for supplier information.
Your customer service approach is definitely the right way to go but when someone has thirty five years of experience, this is something not to be scoffed at, but rather something to be admired. You can certainly learn a lot of things from these people. Customer service is key to running a sucessful business regardless of industry but running a business such as record pressing requires a lot of different technical skill sets. If you have all of the above, then you are on the right track.
This still doesn't answer the question as to why European cuts sound better than your local cuts of the same track. This is the mystery you need to solve but Im sure the Europeans are using the same gear so Im guessing its a matter fo finding a cutting engineer who has a feel for your genre of music.
I never had any problems with DJ types or rappers as there weren't many of them around up until 1991 when my vinyl days concluded. But from what I understand, the difficulty these days is:
* poor recordings from home studios (poor = they dont translate well to vinyl due to phase issues or home recordists thinking they can pan the low freqencies)
* unrealistic expectations in terms of level
* not understanding that you cannot fit a square peg into a round hole
* dealing with people who were born in the digital era and have no understanding of analogue.
* semi-professional recordings that were made with a "digital ear" rather than an "analogue ear".
Cutting records today would be very different than it was in the heyday of vinyl where almost every recording came out of a professional studio. I wouldn't like to be doing it today, thats for sure. Maybe the business needs a new breed and it sounds like you are it.
If you go ahead with buying the plant, you need to keep as many experienced people on board as possible.
I wish you all the best. Contact me via PM for supplier information.
Last edited by Aussie0zborn on Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
well yeah that is the mystery.
It's almost worth a flight back over to london or head to germany and spending a month at different houses getting something cut at each to compare. That and to plug people for info.
Seems we are leaning more and more towards the mastering route. However we will probably still look at purchasing the plant to keep it out of a landfill or recycled into some other form, for later set up. there are a lot of oil and gas test and measurement people near the place were we would set it up (which also helps for the enviro-regs), and I would probably work with an engineering type from that industry to modernize certain portions of the equipment, set it up and have it optimized as much as possible for short run use specifically (faster, easier, more accurate mounting of the plates for example comes to mind when switching jobs).
With the new gear in (the pair of avalon's just arrived but one germanium is still in transit) and being set up to master and or provide treatment of everything from vocals to final records, it seems the next logical step is to consider the cutting solution for sure.
One last thing with respect to EU sounding cuts vs north american for what I am looking for. It's not secret that european/uk cutting houses do a lot more of that kind of material if not almost all dance music in some places vs north america which is rock, punk, jazz, with a bit of hip-hop and house records. go with what you know I guess.
It's almost worth a flight back over to london or head to germany and spending a month at different houses getting something cut at each to compare. That and to plug people for info.
Seems we are leaning more and more towards the mastering route. However we will probably still look at purchasing the plant to keep it out of a landfill or recycled into some other form, for later set up. there are a lot of oil and gas test and measurement people near the place were we would set it up (which also helps for the enviro-regs), and I would probably work with an engineering type from that industry to modernize certain portions of the equipment, set it up and have it optimized as much as possible for short run use specifically (faster, easier, more accurate mounting of the plates for example comes to mind when switching jobs).
With the new gear in (the pair of avalon's just arrived but one germanium is still in transit) and being set up to master and or provide treatment of everything from vocals to final records, it seems the next logical step is to consider the cutting solution for sure.
One last thing with respect to EU sounding cuts vs north american for what I am looking for. It's not secret that european/uk cutting houses do a lot more of that kind of material if not almost all dance music in some places vs north america which is rock, punk, jazz, with a bit of hip-hop and house records. go with what you know I guess.
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dietrich10
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:18 pm
- Location: usa
- Contact:
I plan to be comparable to the cutting options in Euro/UK and I am on the
East Coast of NA. My first official cuts were done last week and for some very established dance labels(Abe Duque Records, Alphahouse,Thema NYC). Add that to the 50+ releases I have produced and the DJ gigs for over ten years around the globe as well as running a vinyl label group(80% of the records go to europe). If I can't push the same levels as my cross Atlantic counterparts than I should sell the VMS.
Tim Xavier @ Manmade when in nyc was cutting as loud as any. Too bad he went to Berlin. He was the person recommending I take this step
East Coast of NA. My first official cuts were done last week and for some very established dance labels(Abe Duque Records, Alphahouse,Thema NYC). Add that to the 50+ releases I have produced and the DJ gigs for over ten years around the globe as well as running a vinyl label group(80% of the records go to europe). If I can't push the same levels as my cross Atlantic counterparts than I should sell the VMS.
Tim Xavier @ Manmade when in nyc was cutting as loud as any. Too bad he went to Berlin. He was the person recommending I take this step
cutting lacquers-vms70 system
europe cuts
Isn't Europe Standard 4db higher than the USA? Is that it? Hey Dietrich are you from Sonic?
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mr_scratchy_esq
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:38 am
- Location: Pittsburgh, PA
- Contact:
So did you decide to buy the plant? It looks like I'm finally getting closer to closing a deal on buying a pressing plant and defunct studio here in Pittsburgh. I plan to buy the building and keep the presses set up as-is. The presses finally made records last month after sitting idle for over 20 years! These presses are manual (or semi-automatics as some say) Finebuilts and are a lot easier to get going than the automated SMTs.
late as usual
Visiting an operating plant or studio can be very helpful way of deciding. If you can work in one for awhile, even better.
I also operate a cutting operation in North America. We've done work for dance DJ's with no complaints as to level on a Scully/Westrex system. I think what you're running in to is people who buy a home recording machine or an old transcription lathe on eBay, hang their shingle out, and they're in the "vinyl" business. I'm 47 and have studied 'needle in groove' recording since I was 12 years old - yes another who got fascinated by the study of Edison in school and the rest is history...
Over the years I have in-depth studied mechanical recording, electrical recording, collected and restored both mechanical and electronic phonographs and recording equipment, built and modified mechanical recorders, "home" disk recorders, professional recording equipment, transcription equipment, etc.; even got published in a book on sound recording history. All of these experiences IMHO makes me a very well-rounded disk engineer. I've also learned a lot from older engineers, electronics techs, etc. There is no "school" you can go to for learning the art and science of disk recording, and those that are now respected experts have evolved from many different backgrounds, just like I did. Making a successful disk recording (much less a "good" one) requires a skillset that almost no other job in the world requires. You must be well versed in electronics, acoustics, sound recording technology, machine tool technology, thermodynamics, magnetism, piezoelectric properties, and even music; after all, it helps to have an inside knowledge of what you're trying to accomplish from the artist's standpoint. That's where I believe that the most successful mastering engineers - whether it be for disks, CD's, tape, whatever stand out from the others - those who understand music in addition to all the technical knowledge involved.
I do agree with those who advised not to open a pressing plant just to rectify the issues you've had with your previous experiences. I have electroplated metal parts for machines I've restored with great success. Does that mean I could easily understand the ins and outs of making a master/mother/stamper? No. I wouldn't even attempt it. My dad studied plastics and was able to work with them successfully. I've read his books and have studied plastic properties in research I've done on wax and lacquer recording media - should I try to press vinyl records? No. Each of the steps in the vinyl process require sets of skills as well as experience and knowledge of the "black art" side of each in order to produce a viable product, much less one that stands out in the industry and would get you the business you need to succeed/survive.
I'm sorry to hear that you have had problems getting the quality you want, and while I agree that there are "dickheads" (and other colorful names) out there in all industries, I've been around long enough and met enough people in this industry that I can advise you that there are great people out there to work with who are more than willing to help you, you just have to seek them out and that may take time. Also, from personal experience, most of those that would treat you with an 'attitude' really don't know what they're doing in the first place. The people that will work with you and get you what you want, or at least as close as possible and within the parameters of whatever media you want to work with, are the ones to trust and treat with respect. I don't know of anyone on this message board, including us older members who would fall in to the "a-hole" category, or even come close. All of us oldies want to see our art carried on and not just discarded because of digital media. However, we also want to see things done correctly, concepts understood properly (RIAA!!!), so that younger people will learn what makes a good slab of vinyl and what doesn't. So sometimes we may seem harsh in our advice or overbearing in making a point - it's just so that younger people will properly understand the basics first, then you can experiment, theorize, and work on improvements. With disk recording, understanding the basics can take a very long time.
Getting back to your frustration, if you'd like a test of some of your material, PM me and I'm sure I can locate a one-sided lacquer (all of us cutters have one here or there!) to send you with a sample of your material cut on our system. I also like feedback from my customers because audio recording and engineering, like any other discipline, is a constant learning process and if you become fixated in your work and say "this is as good as it gets" - you're not developing and improving your product. Like Edison said, "show me a thoroughly satisfied man, and I'll show you a failure".
Over the years I have in-depth studied mechanical recording, electrical recording, collected and restored both mechanical and electronic phonographs and recording equipment, built and modified mechanical recorders, "home" disk recorders, professional recording equipment, transcription equipment, etc.; even got published in a book on sound recording history. All of these experiences IMHO makes me a very well-rounded disk engineer. I've also learned a lot from older engineers, electronics techs, etc. There is no "school" you can go to for learning the art and science of disk recording, and those that are now respected experts have evolved from many different backgrounds, just like I did. Making a successful disk recording (much less a "good" one) requires a skillset that almost no other job in the world requires. You must be well versed in electronics, acoustics, sound recording technology, machine tool technology, thermodynamics, magnetism, piezoelectric properties, and even music; after all, it helps to have an inside knowledge of what you're trying to accomplish from the artist's standpoint. That's where I believe that the most successful mastering engineers - whether it be for disks, CD's, tape, whatever stand out from the others - those who understand music in addition to all the technical knowledge involved.
I do agree with those who advised not to open a pressing plant just to rectify the issues you've had with your previous experiences. I have electroplated metal parts for machines I've restored with great success. Does that mean I could easily understand the ins and outs of making a master/mother/stamper? No. I wouldn't even attempt it. My dad studied plastics and was able to work with them successfully. I've read his books and have studied plastic properties in research I've done on wax and lacquer recording media - should I try to press vinyl records? No. Each of the steps in the vinyl process require sets of skills as well as experience and knowledge of the "black art" side of each in order to produce a viable product, much less one that stands out in the industry and would get you the business you need to succeed/survive.
I'm sorry to hear that you have had problems getting the quality you want, and while I agree that there are "dickheads" (and other colorful names) out there in all industries, I've been around long enough and met enough people in this industry that I can advise you that there are great people out there to work with who are more than willing to help you, you just have to seek them out and that may take time. Also, from personal experience, most of those that would treat you with an 'attitude' really don't know what they're doing in the first place. The people that will work with you and get you what you want, or at least as close as possible and within the parameters of whatever media you want to work with, are the ones to trust and treat with respect. I don't know of anyone on this message board, including us older members who would fall in to the "a-hole" category, or even come close. All of us oldies want to see our art carried on and not just discarded because of digital media. However, we also want to see things done correctly, concepts understood properly (RIAA!!!), so that younger people will learn what makes a good slab of vinyl and what doesn't. So sometimes we may seem harsh in our advice or overbearing in making a point - it's just so that younger people will properly understand the basics first, then you can experiment, theorize, and work on improvements. With disk recording, understanding the basics can take a very long time.
Getting back to your frustration, if you'd like a test of some of your material, PM me and I'm sure I can locate a one-sided lacquer (all of us cutters have one here or there!) to send you with a sample of your material cut on our system. I also like feedback from my customers because audio recording and engineering, like any other discipline, is a constant learning process and if you become fixated in your work and say "this is as good as it gets" - you're not developing and improving your product. Like Edison said, "show me a thoroughly satisfied man, and I'll show you a failure".
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:16 am
- Location: Nottingham,England.
Pressing your own vinyl...
is
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:16 am
- Location: Nottingham,England.
Pressing your own vinyl...
is a dark art, not as much as cutting - which is why, as a guy who only presses vinyl from other peoples metalwork, I've nothing but love and admiration for these guys...but the pressing side is also fraught with dangers, mainly if you get any one of a hundred things wrong, from temp to cleaning the plates properly and everything else in between...but...
- to those who show enough enterprise - it can be done - as long as you WANT to learn, take criticism as well constructive advice, and are absolutely in love with the format- as most of us old guys are - the skills are there to be taught, after all - you guys who are young and energetic, have the money and self-belief to pull off the magic trick that is producing a piece of vinyl from start to finish, you can only be applauded!
That said - you have to show love and respect to those who know about the black arts that feel the need to pass on their knowledge- gained from those who knew only analogue, and pressed millions of records a year- (when those guys got it wrong- people went bust!)
Myself - I always wanted to make records - not record - to manufacture - to become obsessed with the piece of vinyl thats in front of you when you bought it from the record store, and how it was made..who made it , and where, how the mechanics of it all worked - to the point where you become quite anal about it!
(- a good press-man can tell you what machine, which plant, company and country produced any record - even from the "bush" mark in he middle - the piece that holds the plate- in the mold- on the press!)
Like any art-form, a master will always want a student - and you're lucky to find a guy who's as passionate as yourself about the product he makes,
-and your starting with the right mind-set, by wanting to give customers the best product possible, after all - they pay the bills!
All the luck in the world with your new project, and I hope you make the right choices and invest wisely - should you require advice re: Uk or European Pressing houses, most things you'll need to know I would have done right or wrong, either way - experience is always free...
Best Wishes From the East Of England, CC.
- to those who show enough enterprise - it can be done - as long as you WANT to learn, take criticism as well constructive advice, and are absolutely in love with the format- as most of us old guys are - the skills are there to be taught, after all - you guys who are young and energetic, have the money and self-belief to pull off the magic trick that is producing a piece of vinyl from start to finish, you can only be applauded!
That said - you have to show love and respect to those who know about the black arts that feel the need to pass on their knowledge- gained from those who knew only analogue, and pressed millions of records a year- (when those guys got it wrong- people went bust!)
Myself - I always wanted to make records - not record - to manufacture - to become obsessed with the piece of vinyl thats in front of you when you bought it from the record store, and how it was made..who made it , and where, how the mechanics of it all worked - to the point where you become quite anal about it!
(- a good press-man can tell you what machine, which plant, company and country produced any record - even from the "bush" mark in he middle - the piece that holds the plate- in the mold- on the press!)
Like any art-form, a master will always want a student - and you're lucky to find a guy who's as passionate as yourself about the product he makes,
-and your starting with the right mind-set, by wanting to give customers the best product possible, after all - they pay the bills!
All the luck in the world with your new project, and I hope you make the right choices and invest wisely - should you require advice re: Uk or European Pressing houses, most things you'll need to know I would have done right or wrong, either way - experience is always free...
Best Wishes From the East Of England, CC.
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
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Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1852
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: Pressing your own vinyl...
Good to see I'm not the only one with this obsession.NottinghamToolexAlpha wrote:
- a good press-man can tell you what machine, which plant, company and country produced any record - even from the "bush" mark in he middle - the piece that holds the plate- in the mold- on the press!
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dietrich10
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:18 pm
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- Contact:
Re: Pressing your own vinyl...
some serious knowledge!Aussie0zborn wrote:Good to see I'm not the only one with this obsession.NottinghamToolexAlpha wrote:
- a good press-man can tell you what machine, which plant, company and country produced any record - even from the "bush" mark in he middle - the piece that holds the plate- in the mold- on the press!
i am still trying to learn to tell how a record was cut-on a scully or neumann etc
cutting lacquers-vms70 system
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NottinghamToolexAlpha
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:16 am
- Location: Nottingham,England.
You're right - it is an obsession,knowing all the "mechanics" of making a piece of vinyl, altho' my wife is quite proud of me for it though - bit of a party trick-kinda thing.... - of course- it only works if you have like-minded deviants to impress...!
Perfection to me is a nice cup of tea...and a day when everyone is happy with their records!
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Aussie0zborn
- Posts: 1852
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:23 am
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I'm not sure you can tell if a record is cut on a Scully or a Neumann. You can tell if it was cut with a Westrex head with advance ball that is not set properly by the scuffing or low sheen on the land.
Anyone who can identify a Neumann or a Scully cut is probably looking at the cutting studio's name in the dead-wax area and knowing it is a Scully facility or a Neumann facility could then identify it as a "Scully" or a "Neumann" cut from that alone. A great party trick I'm sure.
Anyone who can identify a Neumann or a Scully cut is probably looking at the cutting studio's name in the dead-wax area and knowing it is a Scully facility or a Neumann facility could then identify it as a "Scully" or a "Neumann" cut from that alone. A great party trick I'm sure.