New lasercut ''High Definition Vinyl''

[untitledthe]

It sounds like something of a contradiction in terms, but Austrian company Rebeat Digital have filed a patent to develop what would be the world’s first ‘high definition vinyl’ technology, capable of producing records with longer playing times and a wider frequency range that would potentially cut waiting times at pressing plants in the process.

As Digital Music News report, the HD Vinyl process would involve using 3D-based topographical mapping combined with a laser to burn the music direct to the stamper.

This would potentially optimise the groove structure on each record and reduce wear on the stamper, meaning that each one could be used to press a greater number of records. Rebeat estimate that this would reduce the time it takes to produce a vinyl record by up to 60%, going someway to alleviate the well-documented bottleneck in worldwide vinyl production.

Describing the process, Rebeat CEO Guenter Loibl says: “We adjust the distance of the grooves, we correct the radial/tangential errors, and we optimize the frequencies… You could say we ‘master’ the topographical data, which is a totally different approach.”

Although the process would be radically overhauled, Rebeat stress that the finished product will look and play like a vinyl record, with HD Vinyl discs compatible with all turntables currently manufactured, however the enhanced audio quality of the discs would be best experienced via HD turntables, which may also be on the way.

As Loibl says: “This is a completely backwards-compatible technology… It will play on any existing turntable, you don’t need to buy a new system to enjoy the benefits.” Despite having filed for a European patent, the technology is someway off hitting the market, with Loibl currently looking for investors.


SOURCE: http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-news/rebeat-high-definition-vinyl-technology/

[untitledthe]

I wonder what happens if you start pressing with these stampers, i wouldnt be suprised if non fill is going to be a issue.
Perhaps maybe a idea to throw this in a topic of it own,..

[GeorgeZ]

As I wrote on SH forum:

"The main problem is the groove geometry itself. Even the best laser cutting system cannot change the groove geometry unless it pre-distort the audio signal for a proper playback using one particular stylus shape. There are many various shapes of playback styli and therefore it is impossible to create a HD groove which can be correctly played back with all the styli present on the market now and in the past (conical, elliptical, LineContact, SAS, Shibata...). It could be possible to create modified grooves with different shape and suitable for some kind of HD stylus with some benefits to the sound quality - less distortion, better HF response, a little bit higher amplitudes, - but with no backward compatibility with currently used styli. Therefore using distortion compensators, tracing simulators etc. is very problematic and very rarely used.
What about accuracy of their lasers? Are they able to create amplitudes of audio signals down to several tens of nanometers to reach better SNR than regular vinyl records? I mean at least -60 dB?"

[Aussie0zborn]

why would such a stamper last longer? What would this stamper be made from?

[untitledthe]

As I wrote on SH forum:

Hello GeorgeZ, whats the fullname of this SH forum?
Thanks

[GeorgeZ]

Steve Hoffman Music Forums: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/

But don't expect many profi opinions there - mostly audiophiles, vinyl record lovers, record buyers and collectors and some analog-only trolls (not lathe trolls).
It is a waste of time unless you are looking for something particular.

The topic is here: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/hd-vinyl-is-coming.512297/

[untitledthe]

Thank you for the link, i have read the topic and someone did mention this more comprehensive article of the same story;
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/03/15/high-definition-vinyl-will-soon-become-a-reality/

As from what i understand now this would bypass the laquer/dmm cutting and electroplating as they state that they directly cut stampers (of material not mentioned yet, but what would be a reason to stay with nikkel without the electroplating process) with (sophisticated CNC?) laser cutting systems.

With other words a solution to the laquer/dmm cutting and electroplating bottleneck/headaches? Pretty big deal!
But i dont believe in this 30% more capacity, 30% greater volume, and double the audio fidelity of a typical LP story, im not buying into to that. Aswell as the stamper would last longer, but then again it comes down to the material thats going to be used for it, perhaps there are opportunities.

Interesting development, but they are pretty early with making such big deal of it without anything really to back it up.
There is nothing to hear, show or proof at all.

[Aussie0zborn]

True. "Direct Stamper Recording" has been available for CD for many years but burning a pit and shaping a groove are two different things.

[dietrich10]

This is all in the development stage aka on paper.

The bottleneck in the industry is the lack of pressing capacity.

There are lathe operators and lathes not cutting at their own capacity.

Yes a few more galvanics shops are needed ...but they will just wait inline with the other jobs to be pressed.

We need 200 more presses, 10 galvanic shops and 15 more lathes.

[untitledthe]

In my opinion the lack of pressing capacity will be over in a year or 2. For 1 the new recordpresses wil be selling very well by then as the only problem now is that they are still in development. 2. The big recordpressing companies start eventually to take their mothballed presses into action as they are currently growing enough flesh to take the risk. So why wouldnt the big guys start allready... because business is the best in years and they want to take the profit of it without the costs of new investments of restoring old presses, location, plumbing and probably steam capacity being a pretty deal as they are probably spinning on top capacity right now. Then its back to the electroforming where things start to pinch. So in theory this lasercut stamper approach is a really nice idea, but in practice..? Do me one of those 200 presses to start with, and eventually 3-5. (:

[mossboss]

Sure more pressing capacity
It is now a number of years where people have threatened to produce new machines
To the best of my knowledge we now have the following active in the Feild
Viryl Tech
At this stage the most active where money has been invested for the project up front
Alpha Phoenix
I hear a first batch of 5 presses are under way
Irmler
Has made alpha clones but cannot sell them to others as it was for a specific client
Newbilt
Machines are getting made I have yet to hear of any in production it be nice to know
Rand Music
Seen a clip of an alpha clone
Does any one know what is the state of this enterprise in so far as presses are concerned ?
On paper and ideas we have seen quiet a lot of non events in so far as presses cutting lathes etc
As D points out even though there is a contaradiction in his post " lathes are not in capacity but we need another 15" it is the case of pressing capacity
There is a lot of interest from the optical disc industry to get into pressing of vinyl records however there has to be a foundamental shift in thought process before these people get the concept in their heads
As an example they have to deal with a 30 second cycle for a record as aganst a 2 second cycle for a cd as well as the smaller runs required by the vinyl buyer
A cd line will make around the 10K CD per day where to get the same quantity of records per day will require 10 times the area and 10 times the Personnel
Are existing plants willing to invest in new presses?
Moot point
Having seen the waxing and wane of the game over the last 30 odd years this latest raise in demand does not inspire most incumbents to invest in new gear
At the end of the day there are 150 odd machines producing in the USA so another 150 will only reduce the turnaround be a few weeks but this will require around the $20 million plus investment in the game excluding auxiliaries premises personnel etc
In so far as galvanics are concerned it's a very similar however it has a rather interesting twist to the story
Equipment for galvanics has always been available for the last 30 years from a number of sources, unlike presses which have not been available, we certainly do not see anything happening in that area apart from one very small player in the continent
The point is
When it is all said and done this place is certainly not where the the participants in the industry express their views in so far as the industry is concerned
We all know most of the people here are mainly experimenters a few professional cutters with only a couple posters involved in the game excluding of course the ones aspiring to do so
This is not to suggest we have the insight in the industry, far from it, nevertheless the observations mentioned here are available to any one who is willing to see assess than make comments as well as offer his/ hers observations
Unless there are willing new entrants in the industry to invest in new machinery the state of the game will remain as such mainly due to the amount of investment necessary
Despite the number of people joining this forum here wishing to have a one press operations at the lowest entry cost which does nought for the industry overall
In reality most plants out there owe their owners very little, the gear been written off from their books years ago
Sure we have a few new entrants with existing gear moved around in another location with some more presses put back on line, a couple or few one/two press operations also starting up recently, apart from that we are yet to see anything like a serious attempt to deal with the current demand, some of the reasons perhaps are in this post I am sure there are others as well
It would be nice to have input or other views on the subject from others here
Best

[rsimms3]

Third Man Records in Detroit is having their presses installed currently, they purchased Newbilt machines. I was told just today on a visit to the store that the current timeline is to be pressing records in 6-8 weeks. Reality might be much different, but that's where they are at today.

Also, I follow URP on Facebook and based on their posts their new facility is near completion. I can't recall how many presses (old, refurbs) they have in the new building.

[dietrich10]

Yes I contradicted as if we have 200 more presses we will then need more lathes...as we grow

I heard ThirdMan's presses are scheduled to be in by the fall?

[mossboss]

Well that may be the case about jacks place but I heard that they are looking for a rezoning at the premises they have
If that's the case add another year or two unless the local shire council whatever it's very progressive wanting some new activity in the area
Regardless from the word out there they will only press for their needs so other clients will not have the benefit, This statement may be wrong but that's the word out there, assuming that that's the case it will release some capacity from existing plants which no doubt will benefit some on the waiting list how significant this will be remains to be seen
Best

[untitledthe]

After this new HD Vinyl there is now Nanotechnology coating preventing static and warps of vinyl;

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2016/04/17/2003644160

[audiosteam]

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2018/10/03/hd-vinyl-records-pressing-plants/

looks like da ravalution started and some plants secured a piece of cake

https://hdvinyl.org/

nice website for investors and fools. no hard data nor scientific for trolls

All this has a taste of MiniDisc.. WAIT!! that's a great idea! rewritable HDvinyl records? lemme call my investors!

[Sillas]

Hello to the community!

Does anyone know if this new technology will affect current Lathe cut process? Meaning will it be able to cut small amounts of recordsl as currently is done by VR or other equipment?

Thank you

[tragwag]

my guess is no? laser cutting plastic is a big hassle, and not chemically safe.
all the development going into laser cutting stampers for big production would be wasted on single copies.
sort of like pressing one record currently - it's possible but hardly ever done.

[audiosteam]

Hello to the community!

Does anyone know if this new technology will affect current Lathe cut process? Meaning will it be able to cut small amounts of records as currently is done by VR or other equipment?

Thank you

Yeah what Tragwag says.. I don't think so cause laser on plastics wouldn't make a nice clean groove.
No idea what will the result be.. these people are using a laser that costs 600 000€ (just the laser) so they better work out something really jucy fruit bizz .. maybe some one click next day stamper order with drop shipping straight to your favorite plant.

[Sillas]

Thank you both!