I want to buy some lathe cuts, who getting highest quality?

[Reuben123]

I was contemplating buying an AM44 lathe. But I have been talked out of it buy a professional lathe cutter. It seems I would no longer be a productive musician if I owned a lathe due to costs, maintenance etc. Maybe time as well.

So while it would be a dream to be able to simply and easily cut professional sounding lathe cuts in my music studio and round out the music studio/independent record label/mobile disco tech culture. It could be a big mistake trying to do too much.

So if I am to commission lathe cuts of the highest quality, who should I refine my options down to?
Who in your comparative experience is producing the best quality one off records of durable plastic?
Thanks y'all.

[piaptk]

Get someone with a vinyl recorder, like Tragwag (audiogeography.com)

[Reuben123]

Get someone with a vinyl recorder, like Tragwag (audiogeography.com)

Many lathe experts claim the VR is definitely lower quality cuts sound quality than other higher quality lathes. Seems to be a consensus.
Are you sure cuts made on the VR are the best in the world?
Best meaning, accuracy of reproduction and frequency bandwidth etc.
As close to a pressed record as possible.

[piaptk]

How much are you looking to pay?

[jonoaustin]

VR's are capable of very high quality cuts. Example here: https://youtu.be/Nfvykg7no5g

[tragwag]

no way is the VR the best in the world, but I'm not sure of anyone consistently cutting lathe cuts on plastic with neumann or scully lathes.
I'd be happy to make you a test cut and go from there.
I can guarantee good communication and consistency at the very least, and you can be the judge of your quality needs vs my system.

[jonoaustin]

Normal process here is to have the client buy 1 at the single price. Client evaluates, if unhappy for any reason, return for full refund. If happy, first record is pro rated against larger order if placed. That way the client can evaluate the whole package - audio quality, jacket/center label art, etc. Also useful if comparing different suppliers.

J

[Reuben123]

VR's are capable of very high quality cuts. Example here: https://youtu.be/Nfvykg7no5g

Bless you Jon,
Absolutely brilliant that you have a direct signal compared to all these iPhone videos.
This is the best comparison I have heard of lathe cuts vs pressed records. Actually it is probably the only comparison. Thanks for doing this. Much better to listen for ourselves than read peoples opinions endlessly on this forum. Proof is in the pudding.

The VinylRecorder sounds quite good. Obviously a big difference in high end detail.
Well big to me. But still a viable sound quality for many purposes.

There are many little documentary, demonstrations of vinyl lathe cutting on youtube but frustratingly they never include direct audio to evaluate.

Lastly, I have been told that Florian's Caruso head is an improvement on the VinylRecorder cutting head. People who have replaced the VR head with the Caruso have been left speechless. Hmmm. I wonder if the high end detail would improve with the Caruso head?

We need examples from these people.

Do you have the stock VR setup or additional things like the heavier platter with high torque motor? Any more details of your set up?
Is that slightly duller, less detailed high end the most obvious limitation of the VR?
Is that as good as the high end detail get's on the VR?
From simply reading this forum, that was the main limitation I was expecting. It must be a challenge to get perfect high frequencies on plastic.

Well done Jon!

[Reuben123]

no way is the VR the best in the world, but I'm not sure of anyone consistently cutting lathe cuts on plastic with neumann or scully lathes.
I'd be happy to make you a test cut and go from there.
I can guarantee good communication and consistency at the very least, and you can be the judge of your quality needs vs my system.

I saw you introducing yourself and your productions on youtube. You were taught by an older experienced man.
Do you have audio examples of your lathe cuts online. Seems strange having to ask in this era. But there are differing opinions on what constitutes a valid comparison to evaluate lathe cut sound quality.
High quality source audio on CD and then the lathe cut version A/B'd would be ideal I think. Just like what Jon did there on his youtube video. Very informative.
Thanks.

[tragwag]

no way is the VR the best in the world, but I'm not sure of anyone consistently cutting lathe cuts on plastic with neumann or scully lathes.
I'd be happy to make you a test cut and go from there.
I can guarantee good communication and consistency at the very least, and you can be the judge of your quality needs vs my system.

I saw you introducing yourself and your productions on youtube. You were taught by an older experienced man.
Do you have audio examples of your lathe cuts online. Seems strange having to ask in this era. But there are differing opinions on what constitutes a valid comparison to evaluate lathe cut sound quality.
High quality source audio on CD and then the lathe cut version A/B'd would be ideal I think. Just like what Jon did there on his youtube video. Very informative.
Thanks.

only one example of the stereo cut unfortunately, the rest are the LOFI presto cuts.
readily accessible on my site though! not a special ask or a difficult search:
http://www.audiogeography.com/audiosamples/

and while I learned a lot from Dietrich and rented space from him for years, I'm mostly self taught regarding lathe cuts. 5+ years of working and cutting lathe cuts as my only job, learning best practices through doing.

[Reuben123]

no way is the VR the best in the world, but I'm not sure of anyone consistently cutting lathe cuts on plastic with neumann or scully lathes.
I'd be happy to make you a test cut and go from there.
I can guarantee good communication and consistency at the very least, and you can be the judge of your quality needs vs my system.

I saw you introducing yourself and your productions on youtube. You were taught by an older experienced man.
Do you have audio examples of your lathe cuts online. Seems strange having to ask in this era. But there are differing opinions on what constitutes a valid comparison to evaluate lathe cut sound quality.
High quality source audio on CD and then the lathe cut version A/B'd would be ideal I think. Just like what Jon did there on his youtube video. Very informative.
Thanks.

only one example of the stereo cut unfortunately, the rest are the LOFI presto cuts.
readily accessible on my site though! not a special ask or a difficult search:
http://www.audiogeography.com/audiosamples/

and while I learned a lot from Dietrich and rented space from him for years, I'm mostly self taught regarding lathe cuts. 5+ years of working and cutting lathe cuts as my only job, learning best practices through doing.

What beautiful music. And do I detect a little bit of breathy air to the sound. My perceptions tell me this is the best lathe cut quality I have heard yet. Not crystal clear highs like a CD but sounds the clearest so far from the lathe cut examples I have heard.

I would love to hear your stereo Hi Fi cut of something with bright hi hats.
I dabble in a bit of programmed drums. And the hiatus can be pretty bright.
It is a common thing in drum machine reggae to have very bright hi hat sounds. I'm not sure even pressed records reproduce these heavily eq'd hiatus perfectly. I seem to recall a sibilance type distortion on drum machine reggae records hi hats.

I'm going to listen to some bluegrass on youtube.
Well done!
PS, why do you have Hi Fi stereo and Lo Fi mono? Different machines?
Let me guess the answer is easy to find on your website.

[Reuben123]

no way is the VR the best in the world, but I'm not sure of anyone consistently cutting lathe cuts on plastic with neumann or scully lathes.
I'd be happy to make you a test cut and go from there.
I can guarantee good communication and consistency at the very least, and you can be the judge of your quality needs vs my system.

I saw you introducing yourself and your productions on youtube. You were taught by an older experienced man.
Do you have audio examples of your lathe cuts online. Seems strange having to ask in this era. But there are differing opinions on what constitutes a valid comparison to evaluate lathe cut sound quality.
High quality source audio on CD and then the lathe cut version A/B'd would be ideal I think. Just like what Jon did there on his youtube video. Very informative.
Thanks.

only one example of the stereo cut unfortunately, the rest are the LOFI presto cuts.
readily accessible on my site though! not a special ask or a difficult search:
http://www.audiogeography.com/audiosamples/

and while I learned a lot from Dietrich and rented space from him for years, I'm mostly self taught regarding lathe cuts. 5+ years of working and cutting lathe cuts as my only job, learning best practices through doing.

Ok I found your gear list.
Presto and a VinylRecorder.
The Presto is mono? And the VR is stereo. So I deduce the stereo Hi Fi cut was the VR?
If so, that is quite impressive. There isn't bright drum machine hi hats. But the pure tone of the female voice seems to have good detail and breathiness.

Next we need a comparison of th VR with a higher quality lathe cut of the same Hi Fi source audio. I did read a thread on this forum where people were going to do just such a comparison of each others cuts with audio examples. But the audio links have all died.

From reading this forum I have been lead to believe the cutting head quality is critical to the sonic outcome. What head is supplied with the VR? What head do you use on the VR?
You list a Fairchild cutting head. That sounds fancy.
Have you considered the Caruso cutting head as possibly an upgrade to what you already have?
What are the best quality lathe cuts you have heard? I am thinking the high frequency detail is the biggest limitation.

Important question:
Is the softness of lacquer/acetates cut with sapphire cutting heads capable of more fidelity than durable PVC cut with diamonds?
Is it the softness that makes acetates higher fidelity? So the grooves can be cut easier allowing the higher frequencies to be cut into the material?
The bluegrass cut seems like a really good advertisement for the VR. I don't think even the VinylRecorder.com website has any audio examples.

We need audio examples of the Caruso cutting head.

What are the main lessons you have learned from experience? Do you have Souri's feedback upgrade or the heavy platter upgrade?
Well done.

[jonoaustin]

VR's are capable of very high quality cuts. Example here: https://youtu.be/Nfvykg7no5g

Bless you Jon,
Absolutely brilliant that you have a direct signal compared to all these iPhone videos.
This is the best comparison I have heard of lathe cuts vs pressed records. Actually it is probably the only comparison. Thanks for doing this. Much better to listen for ourselves than read peoples opinions endlessly on this forum. Proof is in the pudding.

The VinylRecorder sounds quite good. Obviously a big difference in high end detail.
Well big to me. But still a viable sound quality for many purposes.

There are many little documentary, demonstrations of vinyl lathe cutting on youtube but frustratingly they never include direct audio to evaluate.

Lastly, I have been told that Florian's Caruso head is an improvement on the VinylRecorder cutting head. People who have replaced the VR head with the Caruso have been left speechless. Hmmm. I wonder if the high end detail would improve with the Caruso head?

We need examples from these people.

Do you have the stock VR setup or additional things like the heavier platter with high torque motor? Any more details of your set up?
Is that slightly duller, less detailed high end the most obvious limitation of the VR?
Is that as good as the high end detail get's on the VR?
From simply reading this forum, that was the main limitation I was expecting. It must be a challenge to get perfect high frequencies on plastic.

Well done Jon!

Detail on top has nothing to do with the VR - the example was cut flat from the source, which was a CD. Not the same source as the Cisco cut. Different masters. I could have added more top, or less. The VR doesn't care. It can reproduce what it is given quite well. The biggest difference is lack of low end in the cisco cut on last tracks (inner diameter). Bass severly reduced in the Cisco, but not on the CD, and consequently not on the cut I made. The point of the whole thing was to show how good lathe cuts can be, as compared to high quality pressed records.

[Gridlock]

This is ridiculous. I've cut booty bass on a Wilcox gay just fine you guys are insane. If you want it to sound like a CD, get out of here.

[Reuben123]

VR's are capable of very high quality cuts. Example here: https://youtu.be/Nfvykg7no5g

Bless you Jon,
Absolutely brilliant that you have a direct signal compared to all these iPhone videos.
This is the best comparison I have heard of lathe cuts vs pressed records. Actually it is probably the only comparison. Thanks for doing this. Much better to listen for ourselves than read peoples opinions endlessly on this forum. Proof is in the pudding.

The VinylRecorder sounds quite good. Obviously a big difference in high end detail.
Well big to me. But still a viable sound quality for many purposes.

There are many little documentary, demonstrations of vinyl lathe cutting on youtube but frustratingly they never include direct audio to evaluate.

Lastly, I have been told that Florian's Caruso head is an improvement on the VinylRecorder cutting head. People who have replaced the VR head with the Caruso have been left speechless. Hmmm. I wonder if the high end detail would improve with the Caruso head?

We need examples from these people.

Do you have the stock VR setup or additional things like the heavier platter with high torque motor? Any more details of your set up?
Is that slightly duller, less detailed high end the most obvious limitation of the VR?
Is that as good as the high end detail get's on the VR?
From simply reading this forum, that was the main limitation I was expecting. It must be a challenge to get perfect high frequencies on plastic.

Well done Jon!

Detail on top has nothing to do with the VR - the example was cut flat from the source, which was a CD. Not the same source as the Cisco cut. Different masters. I could have added more top, or less. The VR doesn't care. It can reproduce what it is given quite well. The biggest difference is lack of low end in the cisco cut on last tracks (inner diameter). Bass severly reduced in the Cisco, but not on the CD, and consequently not on the cut I made. The point of the whole thing was to show how good lathe cuts can be, as compared to high quality pressed records.

So to have a a comparison of source audio to lathe cut reproduction of the source audio, you could simply do another video with the CD you cut from as the comparative tracks. Then we could use our ears to evaluate the VR cuts accuracy.

[Reuben123]

This is ridiculous. I've cut booty bass on a Wilcox gay just fine you guys are insane. If you want it to sound like a CD, get out of here.

Ridiculous to want good quality sound? To want high end detail?
You would be calling a lot of people and their hard work of technological advancements ridiculous with that criteria.
Your communication style is deficient.

[Gridlock]

This is ridiculous. I've cut booty bass on a Wilcox gay just fine you guys are insane. If you want it to sound like a CD, get out of here.

Ridiculous to want good quality sound? To want high end detail?
You would be calling a lot of people and their hard work of technological advancements ridiculous with that criteria.
Your communication style is deficient.

1. In my opinion it is ridiculous to want that stuff. 2. I'm glad you can be offended for other people based on how much you idol worship them and their "technological advancements" I bet you would get upset if I said the white stripes suck. 3. My communication style is not deficient. 4. You're on real thin ice here, sandwich guy. You just asked a room full of experts and wizards and tribal elders and chaotic neutral bards and, yet, you have the AUDACITY (Lol get it? It's a computer thing) to bring up cds and shit. 5. You know What? I thought I heard you mention something about dub reggae. God in heaven knows there is only dancehall, rocksteady, ska, 2tone and 3rd wave. 6. Also, did you mention something about using a drum machine to make hi hat noises? 7. I'm done. I'm so. Totally. Done watching this thread shit all over itself. Lo fi or NO fi, baby!!!!

[socialroots]

Drum machine reggae? Nothing,abosolutely nothing touches Duke Reids or Sir Coxone Dodds,not to mention pressure sounds,and others of course...these recordings,height of J.A,s golden era of music recordings,between treasure isle,studio 1,and the master players of instruments,,arrangers,engineers huge corral of singers n song writers and crappy ,lo fi equipment,tape machines, still cant be touched!
Quality,is a very subjective thing,some like red shirts n some like blue shirts,which color of shirt is better quality?
Which delay sounds better for reggae, Roland Space echo or digital delays?
Im sure Gridlock prefers the analog tape delays!
Spring reverb,or digital reverb for reggae?
Why do they sell very expensive vst recreations of old crappy vintage gear for the MAC n PC ,and EVERY computer based recording sequencer I see being used for recording music is loaded with vst plugins of vintage crap ,one of them is even to even make your music sound sound like a vinyl record(to my ears it sounded more distorted and dirty).
I would suggest that if you like and want the cd sound,just go for the cd!
If you like that pressed record ( arent they duplicated from a master that was cut on a lathe?) Sound quality,just get your music pressed, why deal with all these uncertanties of records that are cut one at a time and each record of the same trcks will sound different,no one being the same.
Good thing you got talked out of buying a lathe,have a feeling that you would have hated getting one. With the money you gonna have still cuz you didnt buy the Flokason AM44 ,flo,s highly functional art,you got plenty of money to do a small run of pro pressed records of you music. Sell it and make some cash back to do another run.
Maximum respect ,
Patrick

[jonoaustin]

Sorry. I thought the OP wanted to have some records cut. Now I know why this form is called Lathe Trolls. Done here.

[tragwag]

yeah it's a big tradeoff, that's what I think Jon is getting at.
I did a lot of work to that cut to make it sound good, it's far from a flat transfer, but I'm lucky the recording was high quality and I took the time to make a pleasing and faithful reproduction.

With electronic music and crisp hi-hats, I often have to de-ess heavily in order to get the overall volume my clients want.
so I can cut a more true sounding disc, but it will have to be much quieter than the standard for electronic/dance records.

I'd be happy to cut you a test of your track, and Jon has mentioned the same.

the VR comes with the standard VR head. it is a dynamic cutter head (no feedback). though souri does offer a feedback version, I haven't seen one in person.
I inquired about a caruso many years ago, but I bought a second VR last year so I've had to shelve a cutting head upgrade for the time being.

the presto 6N I use has an Olson head on it, it's a fairchild clone (why I thought it was a fairchild), I also have presto 1D, and an actual Fairchild M541 head.

Love to talk shop and dig into stuff, but I don't want to seem overly competitive and I think the questions being asked at this point would be best answered with a personal test copy if you'd like to go that route.