Cutting on Non-Lacquer Discs

[7MAT]

due to the bad distribution politics of apollo we want to make this solution public domain.

What bad distribution politics?????

Apollo have trebled their business in Europe since making the change!

No good going to www.apollomasters.de as it now points to Apollo's US website.

Just been on the www.vinylium.ch website and they recommend using acetate lacquer discs if you want the best quality sound.


dubplates vs. vinyl
the vinylium dubplatecutter together with the vinylium diamond stylus allows you to cut vinyl-like material in a very good quality. for brilliant sound we recommend to cut on acetates (dubplates).

[flozki]

hmm.
i mainly developed the kingston cutter & sc99 head. so i guess i can estimate whats good and best.

for me a freshly cut accetate sounds best.definitely. for the first 10 plays.depending on the needle...maybe more plays.

BUT for lot of dubplate cutter user this was often a reason not to buy a kingston cutter. because you can not scratch with the accetate.
(the reference lights where a step into the right direction. but they gave alwasy problems to cut. and they are too expensive. but they are obsolete now with lexan and diamond stylus)

also there is another important point. the price.
a vinylike plate cost me around half the price of an accetate. and its much more durable.
and the prices for dubplates reach a region where it just becomes ridiculous.

so as i said. vinylike (pc) plates replace 90 percent of all my accetates. and most of the dubplatecutter user are even more happy with scratchable and durable plates.

about the apollo distribution politics:

1. the monopole.
we had transco, apollo two independant companies. there was some competition and the price for 10 inch dub was already high. but reasonable.
when ordering large number of plates , the user could get a reasonable price.

then apollo bought transco. and what a coincidence: prices went up.

2. the distribution on the continent.
england is a big, but totally differnet business.

we had with ameise a perfect distributor.
-martin had an excellent web order shop. i knew always whats on stock and what not.
-he knows the business. he cuts, runs a pressingplant. so someone from the scene. when there was a problem it was always a good and reliable service.
- prices where also very reasonable.
- it is located in germany, that means low transport costs.

if i order from england i have very high transport costs. even higher than ordering directly from the usa.

now the prices are around 30% higher than in USA??? and additionally the transport costs from england.

there is now weborder shop
there is no online priceist.

with the blanx-uk takeover all this good efford was distroyed within days.
cutting rooms are pissed and all the credit for apollo on the continent is gone.

so i hope that apollo will rethink their distribution.
i wrote this way before we came up with vinylike to apollo, but they even didnt gave any reply...
i know quite many cutting studios changing to MDC laquers because they dont like the way apollo distributes. fortunatley there is a 2nd source for master laquers.

-------------------------------
all this made us searching for a cheap and reasonable solution.

lexan is available everywhere. everybody can use. (not only customers from the v...lrecorder sect.....)

vinylike is quite cheap.
it is durable


and i will do all what i can to come up with accetate dubs and saphire stylii made and distributed on the continent.
i dont want to make big competition.
but we need a second source.

and i hope someone else shows up with an accetate solutions....

[flozki]

additionally to say that this is my personal opinion.
i dont want to push business neither for vinylium nor for ameise.
i left vinylium a few years ago and i dont have any shares from the ameise imperium.
they just do damn lot for the vinyl record.....

my main intention is that the vinyl and direct cut records survive as long as possible.

i like to see any effort for good solutions bringing us out of the monopole.

flo

[bancho]

I can sign under that!
...and to add: the quality of Transco/Apollo plates was getting worse.

I'm just worried because this is actually real situation not just your opinion.

[7MAT]

Flsoki

Yes I agree a freshly cut acetate sounds best for up to 30 plays. Even up to 50 plays it still sounds better than most plastic cuts IMO.

Apollo (including Transco) has always manufactured products for the professional cutting engineer, whilst they did make (at request) a reference-lite disc this product has not been manufactured for over 2 years.

What I can tell you is that we hope to be launching later this year a new reference-lite disc, this time using the Transco Masterpiece lacquer formulation as our base with a much thicker coating.

This new product will definitely appeal to those who want a deeper cut and a big sound. This product will be sold along with a special stylus which will be cheaper than those used for mastering at approx €35-€40 (based on current exchange rates & development costs).

In answer to your points;

1) Prices from both Transco and Apollo have remained unchanged for more than 10 years even with increasing costs. Today’s prices simply reflect the current exchange rates and nothing else. Have you seen the price of MDC lately? Some financial analysts are even predicting parity with the US dollar, Euro and Pound Sterling later this year. We monitor exchange rates on almost a daily basis and when the situation improves rest assured this will be reflected in our rates.

2) Transco & Apollo products now have more than a 60% share of the market in continental Europe. An increase of more than 300% gained in the last year. This has been achieved by working very closely with both our customers and the pressing plants.

Peter Inker (ex Capital) our technical expert with more than 30 years experience in this industry has visited most of them in the last year. By working together with the industry we are able to show them how to get the best out of our products. To this effect we have been extremely successful – without exception all the major pressing plants in Europe now endorse Apollo and Transco products.

We don’t run an ecommerce shop for the simple reason is that it is not required. When I spoke with Martin @ Ameise he told me that customers would always telephone him and that he was actually thinking of closing down his web shop. I don’t ever recall stock levels or volume pricing on his website. I personally have a lot of experience at running ecommerce businesses and if needed this could be up and running very quickly.

Transco Blanx Ltd do not charge delivery and invoice in Euros. If you are VAT registered and in the EU we will invoice for only the product. There are no additional charges at all.

Apollo in the States paid good money for Transco Inc and have invested heavily in people and new technology. They are not in this for the short term and are totally dedicated to ensuring that the future quality of vinyl is not compromised in any way.

To this effect we are currently working on a new website which will include user guides, tips, and product specifications plus much more along with some exciting new developments to be announced later this year.

Matt Rooke
Transco Blanx Ltd
http://www.blanx-uk.com
http://www.cafepress.com/blanx

[Simon]

http://www.apollomasters.de/
(martin from ameise germany)

Is now pointing to http://www.apollomasters.com

I see a domain move

[7MAT]

http://www.apollomasters.de/
(martin from ameise germany)

Is now pointing to http://www.apollomasters.com

I see a domain snatch

Repost - Info first posted appox 5 posts above.



Martin has been trying to sell his web domain since last year.

In good faith Martin has pointed the url to the US Apollo website while a deal goes through.

No snatching or bully boys tactics going on here!

[Simon]

I will edit what I said.

[monoplex]

This topic got a little off track, but what is the final decision on the blank pressed records for cutting? I am just starting out and would be interested in putting together another order if others would be interested.

[rick o kutt]

yep.. I'd be keen on some update on the results of cutting into the blank vinyl records as well. I have tried PVC sheet but using a sapphire stylus and no heat it wasn't very successful. I have a heated stylus setup to try now tho.

Was there any problems with abilities to cut high frequencies? How was surface noise? Im interested in juke box quality really.

[markrob]

yep.. I'd be keen on some update on the results of cutting into the blank vinyl records as well. I have tried PVC sheet but using a sapphire stylus and no heat it wasn't very successful. I have a heated stylus setup to try now tho.

Was there any problems with abilities to cut high frequencies? How was surface noise? Im interested in juke box quality really.

Hi Greg,

I've had the same results as you. Surface noise was too high to be useful. The highs were there though. Using a heated stylus didn't seem to help much. It appears you need a diamond stylus, but I can't justify the cost. The best results I've achieved are by embossing rather than cutting. However, the groove geometry is poor (very shallow) and this makes it tough for a standard playback stylus to track. Also, since the embossing stylus is a cone rather than a chisel, there is an loss of recorded high frequencies. I've been looking into improving the results, but have not gotten there yet. I tested on some 12" blank records and have also been using .007" thick acetate and PVC sheet film that can be found at art supply stores.

Mark

[flozki]

forget it.

1. you need diamond.
if you are carfull your diamond lasts very long. so you need to count max. $1 per record for the stylus.

2. forget vinyl. it is not a good material for cutting.
use something different.

accetate or polycarbonate..

heating doesnt help much for polycarbonate,vinyl...

try with hss-steel stylus. that could be better than saphire. but the problem is you have to produce yourself.... need some tooling.

[vinylivo]

following this thread, I can see there is quite a big interest to cut into more durable material than lacquer discs for dubplates.

we're about to test several different materials in the next weeks.
after quite some phone talkings with cutters and own experience I do agree that stylus heating doesn't work for pvc or vinyl-like blanks;
but heating the blank itself does have a big influence on results. it affects chip suction success and background noise. so I can recommend to experiment with heating the blank on the platter, of course the temperature will depend on the selected material...

happy vinyl-like cutting

jvo

[Internet]

[quote="vinylivo"] I do agree that stylus heating doesn't work for pvc or vinyl-like blanks;
/quote]

Well, I should be the only one who heat his stylus on PVC or Pressed...but it works ^^ If your stylus is out of Swiss chocolate, it is on that is likely to complicate the cut

[MEGAMIKE]

heating the blank poly is very inportant.... non heating with diamond 50 cuts..
with heating ...well iam on my 213th cut..

[Simon]

Someone has to bring down the cost of the diamond stylus .

[flozki]

i will.....
you can be sure....

[Simon]

50 to 60 Euros would be ideal.

[mossboss]

Hey Flo
Any news on this at present? Cheers

[mossboss]

What are you on about my man! We dont want people to "cut less" I dont think we want your help on that score rather to the contrary, help indeed.
Cheers