Acetate forensics

[John]

Hi. I'm new to the site. I’m a collector of acetates, mostly Beatles-related. I am trying to sort out the real ones from the fakes, both for myself as well as for the community as there is a healthy market in obvious fakes (and maybe not-so obvious ones). I have a pretty good handle on identifying and culling out fakes based on label details but it would be great if I could do the forensics on the attributes of the known lathes used to cut the genuine acetates. I believe there must be clues in the details of acetates cut on specific lathes, or possibly by specific engineers on specific lathes; the run-in and run-out grooves as well as, perhaps, the groove spacing. Possibly there are other identifying clues a lathe guru could help me identify.

Is that correct?

What are the characteristics of individual acetates that can be used to identify the specific lathe type that produced them, or possibly the the engineer that created them?

Any experts out there that can help identify the lathe(s) used at EMI/Abbey Road in the 60s (top priority) as well as at Dick James, Apple records and Capitol US in the 60s?

Can you refer me to someone who can help me with these questions?

Thanks. John

[mushroomjesus]

How to Identify the Origin of an Acetate Record

Acetate records—also known as lacquer cuts—are unique one-off discs typically used for demos, test pressings, or studio reference cuts. Because they’re often made outside traditional commercial channels, identifying their origin can be challenging. However, the following methods may help you trace where an acetate was made or who cut it:

1. Examine Labels and Handwriting

Look for Studio Names or Engineer Notes: Acetates often include handwritten details directly on the label or disc, such as song titles, artist names, or even the cutting engineer’s initials.
Reference Labels: While not official, temporary or typewritten labels can sometimes indicate the studio, label, or session details.

2. Inspect the Runout Groove (Matrix Area)

Matrix Etchings: Some acetates include matrix numbers or etchings in the runout groove. These may reveal the cutting facility or even the mastering engineer.
Lathe Signatures: Look for etchings like “Kdisc,” “Artisan,” “Sterling,” or personal initials, which are often unique to specific mastering engineers or cutting houses.

3. Context Is Key

Recording Purpose: Was the disc made as a demo, radio promo, or mastering reference? Knowing the original use can point to likely studios or labels.
Artist or Label Background: If you know who recorded the material, research where they typically worked or were signed. Studios like Capitol, Bell Sound, or Gold Star often cut in-house acetates.

4. Note Unique Physical Characteristics

Drive Holes: Small secondary holes near the spindle hole may indicate an older lathe (e.g., Presto or Scully) that used drive pins.
Material & Feel: Acetates typically have an aluminum or glass core with a lacquer coating. They often feel heavier, and may exhibit surface imperfections or softer grooves.

5. Use Online Databases and Collector Communities

Discogs: Matrix numbers or label artwork might match entries in Discogs, even for one-off pressings.
Vinyl Forums: Communities like the Steve Hoffman Forums, Lathe Trolls, or Reddit’s r/vinyl can be helpful in identifying studio etchings or label types.
Labelography Guides: Resources that specialize in vintage label/studio design changes (e.g., Columbia “2-eye” era) may help date and locate the origin.


Identifying acetates is often a forensic process—part record-collecting, part audio archaeology. Many were never meant for public release, which makes each discovery unique. When in doubt, document what you see (label scans, matrix photos, groove profiles).

[John]

Thank you mushroomjesus for the detailed response.

What I'm wondering is whether there are specific characteristics of the cutting of the acetate that can be used to associate it with a specific cutting lathe or cutting engineer. Attached is an example. This was cut at EMI/Abbey road in 1964 by engineer Geoff Emerick, one of several engineers at Abbey Road cutting acetates during this period (Peter Vince, Vic Gann, Ken Scott,...). During this period he cut a large number of acetates for the Beatles and other groups at EMI.

Is there anything about the cutting of the acetate that is uniquely identifiable; in the geometry of the run-in or run-out grooves, groove spacing, spacing before or after the music starts or ends, etc., that could identify the lathe or the engineer?

[Dub Studio]

It's all about provenance. Any dealer will tell you that without that, the disc is worthless.

Identifying features can only prove something is fake, not that it is genuine.

So, at best, this line of questioning will only help identify clever forgeries... and if I am honest, I don't think that is something this community should be engaging in.

[Dub Studio]

This was cut at EMI/Abbey road in 1964 by engineer Geoff Emerick, one of several engineers at Abbey Road cutting acetates during this period (Peter Vince, Vic Gann, Ken Scott,...). During this period he cut a large number of acetates for the Beatles and other groups at EMI.

And you can prove this how?

[Dub Studio]

Just to be clear, I am not accusing anyone of anything, but putting this kind of information out there is not a good idea.

[Aussie0zborn]

The lead-in groove might start with a nearly-locked first groove before it spirals across to the music start. It might not be nearly locked. The pitch of this spiral can be adjusted so there might be more grooves in the lead-in or less. Each lathe even at the same facility might be slightly different.

You need to take a number of known original acetates and look at the lead-in pitch and determine whether they were cut at fixed pitch or variable pitch. The pitch of the lead-out groove should also be looked at.

While the above will give you a good idea I would say your best indicator is the stick-on label.