Having trouble getting the 'Highs'

[Mentes]

Hey man... sorry to hear your situation has got you to 'throw in the towel' territory... I dont know the machine but I think the frustrations with any home/DIY machine will be similar.

Things I've found useful on a similar journey this year that may be useful (I've been semi-full time on a T560 since Feb - and likely aged at least 3 years in this time)

Start again from scratch, literally everything you can adjust or change should be looked at, make a list of *everything* you can adjust / measure / check / change and write it out...

Then do not heat the room as working in a hot space can test your patience more in my experience (not sure how appropriate this is in florida! but maybe do all the calibration with the AC running )

....then do all the things you can, and importantly talk it through *out loud* the whole time - rubber ducking your set-up as you're a programmer - this is massively transferable imo, I do this and it defo helps.

At least twice I've been caught out with really basic things I _thought_ were correct but weren't, there's a chance this could be the case for you so worth ruling it out... and be super picky and perfectionist with everything you can, tiny tiny adjustments matter.

Audio wise, use a file that has been mastered for vinyl if you can, or at least one shouldn't cause you any issues - I've chased issues for a day or two that end up being source material - best to rule this out.

Make sure you measure your groove depth, I've found minor adjustments here can have massive impact to the levels you can cut at... for my setup about  70μm seems to be best, your results may vary, this is worth experimentation.

Rake angle is also another huge factor in end loudness / clarity / background noise... again some experimentation here will likely yield results.

Goes without saying but if you're changing a parameter then do this one parameter at a time... if you have a hunch or get some better results it's the only way you'll have confidence.

Essentially read the spinnertown blog and do all the things, but also with the knowledge that your results may vary for some things.

Might be worth paying to have your cutting head EQ mapped just to know for sure you're working with a solid EQ - that said, I didn't have bad results following the guide Matt shared, but sometimes knowing for sure that someone who really knows what they are doing has been involved will at least reduce your possible areas of concern by one.

If there's any way you can get someone else locally who knows what they are doing to help then I found, once I'd been through everything myself and had another more experienced set of eyes on things, that my confidence grew and I'm usually able to have an idea of what issues might be - if this can only be done remotely on a video call or something, think about having an extra webcam for closeups - make it easier for someone to help you if you can.

If you've done all of this, and still aren't getting decent sounding cuts I'd be surprised - as long as there isn't some underlying issue with the cutting head, then it's hopefully just a case of back-to-basics and one more weekend between you and decent cuts!

[spinnertownblanks]

Hey man... sorry to hear your situation has got you to 'throw in the towel' territory... I dont know the machine but I think the frustrations with any home/DIY machine will be similar.

Things I've found useful on a similar journey this year that may be useful (I've been semi-full time on a T560 since Feb - and likely aged at least 3 years in this time)

Start again from scratch, literally everything you can adjust or change should be looked at, make a list of *everything* you can adjust / measure / check / change and write it out...

Then do not heat the room as working in a hot space can test your patience more in my experience (not sure how appropriate this is in florida! but maybe do all the calibration with the AC running )

....then do all the things you can, and importantly talk it through *out loud* the whole time - rubber ducking your set-up as you're a programmer - this is massively transferable imo, I do this and it defo helps.

At least twice I've been caught out with really basic things I _thought_ were correct but weren't, there's a chance this could be the case for you so worth ruling it out... and be super picky and perfectionist with everything you can, tiny tiny adjustments matter.

Audio wise, use a file that has been mastered for vinyl if you can, or at least one shouldn't cause you any issues - I've chased issues for a day or two that end up being source material - best to rule this out.

Make sure you measure your groove depth, I've found minor adjustments here can have massive impact to the levels you can cut at... for my setup about  70μm seems to be best, your results may vary, this is worth experimentation.

Rake angle is also another huge factor in end loudness / clarity / background noise... again some experimentation here will likely yield results.

Goes without saying but if you're changing a parameter then do this one parameter at a time... if you have a hunch or get some better results it's the only way you'll have confidence.

Essentially read the spinnertown blog and do all the things, but also with the knowledge that your results may vary for some things.

Might be worth paying to have your cutting head EQ mapped just to know for sure you're working with a solid EQ - that said, I didn't have bad results following the guide Matt shared, but sometimes knowing for sure that someone who really knows what they are doing has been involved will at least reduce your possible areas of concern by one.

If there's any way you can get someone else locally who knows what they are doing to help then I found, once I'd been through everything myself and had another more experienced set of eyes on things, that my confidence grew and I'm usually able to have an idea of what issues might be - if this can only be done remotely on a video call or something, think about having an extra webcam for closeups - make it easier for someone to help you if you can.

If you've done all of this, and still aren't getting decent sounding cuts I'd be surprised - as long as there isn't some underlying issue with the cutting head, then it's hopefully just a case of back-to-basics and one more weekend between you and decent cuts!

Firstly, that is some solid advice. There’s always a solution.

We don’t offer mapping cutterheads as a paid service anymore but we want to help, so give me a shout and let’s just get your head mapped and work out the issue. You aren’t alone and we are here to help and I don’t want anything for it, let’s just sort it. Don’t pack it in just yet, let us give it a shot at helping and if afterwards you’ve still had enough, then look into getting rid of it!

[PacManPlus]

Thanks, guys...

It's just that I've tried everything I can think of; different media, different angles of the cutting head, different weights of the cutting head, different styluses (including ruby and diamond), different amps, it all just seems to bring different issues and not really resolve anything. (BTW, I did change one parameter at a time, similar to debugging a program ) I just felt like I was getting nowhere.
However, I'll take @Mentes and @spinnertownblanks advice, and 'reset' and start over. But if I still get the same results at the end of it all, I'm selling everything.

I do wish there was someone around here (Ocala, FL) who can offer another set of eyes.

@spinnertownblanks... what is 'mapping cutterheads'?

[spinnertownblanks]

Mapping is finding the cutterheads frequency response and also mechanical resonances which all need accounting for to get flat response cuts. Get in touch via email I’ll give instructions and send you audio to cut, I can then get those files from you and check what the system is capable of.

Email us soon as you are ready

[PacManPlus]

Hello all:

I appreciate the help, I honestly do, but I think it's time to throw in the towel. I tried a bit more to figure it out, but if it's *that* difficult to get working, it kind of takes the fun out of it.
I'll be posting the equipment for sale soon. I need to take better pictures and make a list of the the items included. I just want to sell everything as a set at this point.

Hopefully someone has better luck than I did.

Thanks, guys.

[Dub Studio]

Getting a lathe working is really nothing like going through lines of code and finding bugs. The problem is more "squishy" than that, but here is how I would go about diagnosing the problem. For anyone else wanting to "debug" their setup, this might come in handy too.

There are 2 main things to consider:

- electrical / electronic issues
- mechanical / acoustic issues

and you need to trouble shoot some of these things in combination, rather than the "line by line" approach you might normally take.

First, I would verify that the electrical side is all working properly.

- Take the lathe out of the equation for a moment, and just run some audio through your amp and into a pair of speakers that are known to work without distorting. If the speakers sound OK, you know the amp and whatever is driving it is good.

- whatever iRIAA processing you are using*, test this using the same speakers. That way you can hear the signal actually being sent to the cutting head, and verify that the signal is clean. Adding a lot of top end could be making the signal clip at some point in your signal chain, so if that's the case, you need to find out *where* it's clipping. Start by reducing the gain at the very start of the signal chain, and check each stage from there onwards.

- assuming the cause is not the DAW / iRIAA filter / DAC / amp or anything else in your chain, then the problem most likely resides in the cutting head itself. This is where things start to get more mecahnical / acoustic. You can actually tell quite a lot about the mechanical side of the cutting head by listening to it... although it transfers the audio to the disc mechanically, it also acts acoustically on the air around it.

- so, hook it all back up, and send a 500hz sine wave through the head (start with the gain down very low, then slowly raise it til you start to hear the 500hz tone). The advantage of using a sine wave here is that you will hear distortion more easily (any harmonics of 500hz, means that the cutting head is vibrating in ways that it shouldn't). Try again with some lower frequencies, 100hz for example. You will probably hear very little of the original signal, but any distortion will be relatively more apparent because it will be higher up the spectrum.

- if you hear a noticeable amount of distortion (more like a triangle wave than a sine wave) then you probably have some sort of mechanical issue. This will almost certainly make it's way on to the disc, and there is no way you can fix this in your signal chain... you need to get your hands dirty.

- next, try running the audio through one channel at a time to see if one or both drivers are affected. If one sounds OK, and the other is distorting, try swapping the left and right connectors around, just to give you one final reassurance that it's the driver that's at fault and not what's driving it: if the same driver distorts, the fault must be in that driver**.

- if both drivers can push a sine wave without distorting, that's great news! You stand a good chance of getting a good sound from them. Now it's time to get cutting. I am going to assume that your lathe is set up properly and that you are getting a successul spiral groove in the 50 - 100 micron range (groove width) that plays cleanly without excessive surface noise. If not, this needs to be sorted before you can test the cutting head in a real world scenario.

- next, get a NAB test record, and set up a way to measure the signal coming from it with a vu meter. Make sure your 0dBNAB 1khz sine wave is giving you 0dB in the vu meter. This will become your reference point for every cut you ever do, so take a moment to get this right.

- now run a 1khz sine wave through your cutting head. Again start low, then gain it up until your vu meter hits 0dB. Are you hearing a reasonably clean signal? Almost every cutting head ever made should, at the very least, be able complete this task. If it doesn't, then your cutting head needs looking at.

- now you have a established a "safe" zone to work in, try to ensure your recordings don't go over 0dBNAB for the time being. When you get better at cutting, you can add some dBs.

- now for a real-world test. It definitely pays to "map" your cutting head as has already been pointed out. This is because cutting heads (especially those with heavy acoustic damping) seldom have a completely flat response. So, if you use the standard iRIAA curve during cutting, it probably won't give you a flat response on playback. Mapping involves measuring the response of the head (without iRIAA) with a spectrum analyzer.

- one thing to check before testing your lathe...make sure the polarity of the drivers is correct. One chanel must always be in opposite polarity to the other. Sometimes this swapover is done inside the head, sometimes it isn't. Find out.

- FWIW I always use a 20hz square wave to map my head. There are several reasons for this: it has harmonics all the way up the spectrum, the harmonics are very clear and stable (unlike white or pink noise) so you can always see the pokey resonances easily, the harmonics go down by 6dB per octave so the top-end signal to the head is not too excessive. To analyse the response, the Fab Filter EQ for example includes a spectrum analyzer with a 6dB per octave tilt function, which shows a flattened response for a square wave. Other EQs may have this feature.

- it would be a good idea at this stage to take a snap shot of the response of your head without iRIAA and share it here.

- then instead of using the published iRIAA curve, you can start to shape the response using an EQ. For now, just bring the low end down, and knock out the main resonant frequency. Don't worry about boosting the top end just yet. Try to get the response as flat as you can from 100hz to 3khz for starters.

- Run some audio through, how does it sound? If it sounds OK but just muffled, start to add some top end and see what happens.

- if you get this far without issues, report back, I would be happy to pick this up and help you optimise the signal.

- if you didn't get this far, at what stage did things start to go wrong?

Good luck!

* What DAW are you using? What are you using for the iRIAA filter? It would help to know this for diagnosing potential causes.
** by driver I mean the voicecoil, and everything in the transmission line to the stylus - all linkages, couplings, glues and screws.

[mushroomjesus]

Vinyl is a telephone. That’s the beauty. I don’t spin a record because I’m chasing some 20 kHz Spotify chart-topping sparkle. Even a fancy VMS doesn’t magically post the same high-frequency extension as a streaming master — and that’s fine.

High-frequency performance comes down to the mechanical stiffness and resonance behavior of the cutter head — its ability to remain accurate and controlled well into the ultrasonic range, often approaching 80–100 kHz in mechanical bandwidth. That doesn’t mean we’re cutting program content up there; it simply reflects the head’s capability to track high-speed excursions cleanly within the audible band.

The real charm of vinyl isn’t in chasing maximum extension, but in how the format rolls off. The interplay of the RIAA curve and the medium’s physical constraints imparts a natural top-end contour that tames the excessive 10 kHz “air boosts” so common in modern masters.

Today’s music is brick-walled, bright, and fatiguing. Then it gets tossed into MP3 normalization, which butchers the top end even more. Vinyl? It smooths all that out. That lack of screaming highs is why you can listen for hours without your ears begging for mercy.

So before you sell your lathe chasing “more highs”… ask yourself if that’s even what makes vinyl great. I can’t speak on what style you’re cutting — but for me? I’ll take warmth, mids, and low-end character over sterile digital sparkle any day.

Dr. Dub, as mentioned above, has laid a great foundation to start.

[PacManPlus]

Thank you all for your replies...
But it's not just about the highs, I'm having issues all-around. No matter what I do I get either distortion, a groove that the tone-arm can't track (and skips all over the place), or too much surface noise, etc. Keep in mind that I've *never* had a cut/emboss that sounded half-way decent.

I'm sorry but I just can't any more. It's too much frustration for something that's supposed to be a fun hobby. I've been at it for literally *years* now.

[PacManPlus]

Hello again all.

So I disconnected everything, and am trying one last time to connect everything up again.

Just to double-check the order here, it goes: Music Source -> EQ -> Amp -> Lathe
Is that correct?

I have the EQ set low to high, bottom to top, and another EQ set the same at the music source. The Amp ('QSC GX3') volume is set a little over half way, and I reset the needle angle/direction, and and going to try again.
If someone could please confirm that I have the devices in the correct order.

Thank you!
Bob

[spinnertownblanks]

Devices are the right order, but you want to map your head, its likely a simple iRIAA curve won't be sufficient and likely won't get a good sound. We have a guide on our blog with how to do it

[PacManPlus]

Thank you -

I'm going to take my issues one at a time.

I looked at the guide, and it seems to be based on sound quality. I will do that once I get this issue resolved:

One of the main issues I have is that the tracking. The groove isn't deep enough to hold the needle in place, and the tone arm goes all over the place. The opposing weight on the tone arm isn't set too high, as the arm does have some weight to it and 'normal' records play fine.
I'm following the guides I was given:
Cutting: 12-15 grams weight on the cutting head, angle of 90 degrees, stylus tip facing backward.
Embossing: 35-40 grams weight on the embossing head, angle of 80 to 85 degrees, stylus tip facing forward.

I've tried both of the ways above (cutting and embossing), with hardened steel, ruby, and diamond styluses (styli?) and I can't seem to get a good tracking.
BTW, I'm using the blanks sent to me by spinner town blanks (and I've unfortunately gone through quite a few of them already).
The only thing I don't have is how long the stylus should be from the fastener to the tip.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Thank you -
Bob

[spinnertownblanks]

You want a rake angle of around 8 degrees for cutting PETG, if you cut perpendicular at 90 degrees you make get issues, the cutterhead could bounce and cause broken grooves, the diamond needs to dig in a little. You want the flat cutting face 'cutting' the groove out.

For now cut unmodulated, cutteramp turned off, set a cutting rake angle of about 8 degrees, and see what happens. You need to measure groove depth, and at least be able to look at your grooves under a microscope to see whats happening. Do you have one?

[PacManPlus]

Unfortunately, I do not.

But let me try what you mentioned, take sound directly from the source without modification and try to set the cutting stylus angle to get the cutting surface flat against the record and see how it tracks.

Thank you for all of your help.

[spinnertownblanks]

Don’t play any audio, to start with no audio and get a clean groove first

[spinnertownblanks]

Also make sure your stylus is straight too, without a microscope it can be tricky but just do the best you can by eye

[PacManPlus]

Thank you for the replies. I believe I have a clean groove with no audio...
But when I then introduce music - it skips all over the place. I can't get a stable groove (with music) even bringing the weight up to 80g! This is with a Ruby stylus even.

Just out of curiosity, what do some of you use as a lathe? I'm starting to think after all this time maybe my lathe is faulty.

[spinnertownblanks]

If it’s skipping it is likely incorrect equalisation for the head and too much volume. What volume are you cutting? What test record are you using to calibrate playback?

In terms of lathes we have Vinyl Recorder and MC-02

[Semar]

Thank you for the replies. I believe I have a clean groove with no audio...
But when I then introduce music - it skips all over the place. I can't get a stable groove (with music) even bringing the weight up to 80g! This is with a Ruby stylus even.

Just out of curiosity, what do some of you use as a lathe? I'm starting to think after all this time maybe my lathe is faulty.

Hello, if you're getting good tracking, that's a good starting point. Now, as Spinnertownblanks suggests, move on to equalizing your head... I myself ruined a lot of whites by stubbornly trying things out without mapping, and the results were random and chaotic. Once I mapped the heads, the results improved, and I was able to understand things and have fun...

[PacManPlus]

Thank you all for the replies; I wish I could 'like' these posts.

To answer your question, I have all volumes at the half-way point for the time being. I figured I would fine-adjust afterward.

Ok, so then once I have a good clean (quiet) groove, *then* I do the mapping.
My mistake was I thought once you have a solid groove with music (regardless of how it sounds), then you can do the mapping to get the sound quality good.
It sounds like it's this order:

- Solid, non-skipping groove with no sound (do not try audio yet)
- Perform the mapping of the head
- Introduce audio.

Let me see what I can do here. It sounds like I need to get a 'test record'. I'll start to check eBay.

[spinnertownblanks]

Great, yes start with a silent groove. Get a test record as playback must be calibrated to 0 VU to get a reference level to be able to map your head properly