Would it be possible to press without a press

[FlowingIdeas]

Hello. I'm new to the forum. I just recently became interested in vinyl cutting because I have been researching an idea that I have. I have several questions, and I'm hoping that someone here may be able to give me some guidance.

Would it be possible to mass produce vinyl records without stamping them from master plates? For instance, much like burning a CD on a computer, can a vinyl disc be directly cut on a lathe of some sort and then played on a turntable? Or is a lathe simply for creating master plates for stamping? Would there be any shortcomings of cutting directly to a vinyl record on a lathe? Would that record wear out faster than a stamped disc?

I also understand that the lathes that remain in existance are most probably not capable of using for mass production. That means that I would probably have to design a completely new system for my purposes. I do have an extensive background in electronics, electronics design, and software engineering...so that may help me. Are there any good resources for learning about the intricacies of a record cutting lathe? Namely, something that could explain exactly what it takes to make an excellent lathe. I know I'm probably dreaming with that one. I guess it will just take some trial and error working with an older lathe using a little reverse engineering.

I hope someone may be able to give me some direction. I'm in the early stages of my idea, which I feel could do wonders for vinyl record demand and availability, and would like to learn a lot more.

[emorritt]

Welcome to the trolls! I'm in Slidell and cut both stereo and mono disks professionally so if you'd like to check things out locally, PM me. A short answer to your question is "yes" lathes can cut records for direct playback - that's what DJ's call 'dubplates'. However, mass producing by cutting individual records would be much more expensive than having a pressing run done. Not to mention it would take forever to cut say, 50 individual records much less 200 - 1000!

[FlowingIdeas]

Thanks for responding. I actually live in Slidell and work in New Orleans...small world!

I'm going to rethink my idea a little. I'll probably PM you soon. I am interested in getting a first hand look at the process, if possible, or at least you could give me some more insight.

Hell, we may already know each other.

[emorritt]

Cool; PM and I'll let you know where our shop is.

[Steve E.]

Hi! Welcome, Flowing Ideas!

Others with far more experience will chime in, hopefully correcting me.....

Lathes are generally made for cutting into acetate discs, which are more fragile and wear out much more quickly than vinyl. It's a different material with different properties. There are a couple of modern things on the market which cut directly into vinyl blanks. I have not used them. There are some hot discussions about such things around here. Do some searchin'! "Vinylcutter" is one item, and there's another whose name I'm blanking out on. Some say the quality is different from mass-produced records.

Cutting a record manually is much more time-and care- intensive than burning a CD. Tons of adjustments to make and maintain, and mechanical/electrical/acoustic factors to consider. Also, the cost of the cutting styli needs to be factored in. They wear out _much_ more quickly than CD laser burners. One recent thread expresses concern that recently-produced styli may start to wear after only 2 hours of use....as opposed to the 5 hours in the past. Styli cost around $83 a pop.....soooooo, factor that in. $83/3 40 minute LPs = $27.60 per LP! if we extend that to 8LPs or so per stylus, it's still around $10.50 for styli cost per 40 minute LP.

12" acetate blanks cost from $11.75 to $20.00 depending on quality and durability. So each 40 minute 12" acetate record cut seems to be costing somewhere between $22.25 and $47.60, pre-tax, for materials alone. Not including test-cuts, flubbed discs, electricity, the set-up equipment, and labor and maintenance. (geez! I never thought of it that way!)

Your best bet is to start out with the known universe. Buy a used lathe and learn how to use it, then try innovating from there. Len Horowitz of History of Recorded Sound suggested I start with a Presto 6N, which was a widely available lathe from the late 1940's. They were in tons of radio stations, so there are still some around, and you can gradually get the missing parts. If you are patient they show up on Ebay, and you can get one for around $500 to $1400, depending basically on luck. There are other perfectly good lathes to start out with.

Look around here! lots of good resources, and nice people who will take the time to answer your questions.

Remember that record cutting has been around in some form or other since before 1890. That's over 120 years of lots of smart people working on the problem. If you have an idea, it's probably been considered before. That's not to discourage you! (You might have the brilliance and drive to come up with something new.) Just to encourage you to respect the advice you get here, much of which will be from people who have been cutting records for a VERY long time and have thought about the problem for decades. Learn from the experience of others. We've got people here who were involved in the most sophisticated hi-fi record cutting ever. And many other professionals, and smart amateurs.

Stick around! Welcome.

[Steve E.]

Lucky you to live near emorritt. He knows what he's doing.

[cd4cutter]

Flowing, one of the things that people experienced with digital recording don't realize is that doing things in analog is extremely difficult to speed up beyond real-time. Digital recording either by magnetic or optical means can pretty easily be done at many times faster than the real-time playback of audio or even video information. That's because the recording system does not have to manipulate any consequential mass. Moving a light beam is a pretty low-mass proposition, and light beam modulation technology is also pretty speedy. But when you are literally cutting a groove in a record, you are moving the mass of the recording stylus against the mechanical load of the recording blank and removing the mass of the chip (swarf) from the blank master. This already takes a pretty concentrated amount of power to do in real time. Cutter heads are just barely able to dissipate the amount of power required to do this without burning up. To speed up the process would require injecting much more power into the cutter to move the mass of the stylus faster. It's never been feasible to do this in the past. I doubt that anybody is willing to put the necessary engineering into the mechanical systems required to do this in the future. I have extensive experience cutting CD-4 records which required recording frequencies up to 45kHz in real time. No cutting head designed in the past was capable of doing this with the required amplitude of motion. Some experimental models from Neumann were developed, but I'm not aware of really successful results with them. So CD-4 records were all cut at either half speed or 1/2.7 speed in order to bring the signal bandwidth down into the audio range which could be cut with the cutters available.

[kanyethegreatest]

@Steve E.

I've searched the forum for posts on vinylcutter, but not many hits. One example is the vinylrecorder, right? Are there comparable devices that aren't made in Germany? Regarding your prices, could the styli cost per LP be reduced by resharpening styli to extend their lifetimes. Also, regarding the costs you quoted for 12" acetate blanks, on vinylrecorder's site, he sells 12" blanks (qty 10) for 40 euro. Are these blanks he's selling not acetate blanks? Thanks for helping a newbie out!

[mischmerz]

There are only two places in the world that produce and sell lacquers . There are a number of different types of blanks available, PVC, Polycarbonate to name a few. All of them have special requirements (like different styli) advantages and disadvantages. Some folks don't even cut but imprint the groove onto plastic like CDs. There are many ways to create analog records. Pick your poison

m.