Limited runs of lathe cut records

[piaptk]

There are many different reasons that people collect/buy/listen to records.... Superior sound quality may be one, but, in my experience, and in my particular scene (punk/indie rock, etc) it is in no way the main reason... A lot of people want a tactile experience to music that CDs don't give, collectibilty, large format artwork, novelty, nostalgia, etc. And regardless of how audiophiles and vinyl snobs feel about these motivations, they are many of the factors keeping vinyl alive and bringing nondubplate lathe cuts into a larger audience. In my 17 years of collecting records, and hanging out with record collectors, I have never once seen someone listen to a record with headphones plugged into their stereo, or paying any deliberate attention to stereo seperation of a record. I hve no doubt that there are audiophiles out there that do, or that this might be important in some dj circles, etc.

That being said, I would guess that 98% of the people that factrcuts knows who collect records will be ecstatic with his vinylrecorder cuts and won't get hung up on a wavering piano note or even notice the difference.

I pretty much exclusively cut mono picnic plates these days and everyone I've shown them to is beyond excited about them and wants me to cut some for their band.

I just think it's important to recognize that there are a lot f different motivations for cutting and listening to records and that vinylrecorder (which i don't (and will never) own) makes records acceptable by a large number of average music listeners. This board is big enough for audiophiles AND physical music enthusiasts/colector nerds.

[piaptk]

On a different note, has anyone noticed a huge surge in the demand (and providers of) lathecuts recently? 2 years ago, Peter king was the only game in the world for affordable mass produced lathe cuts, and in the last few months there have been several cutters popping up offering similar services. I'm excited about this... As are all of the bands I know that can't sell 300+ records. Everyone that I know that cuts records as a service seems oberwhelmed with orders. It's great!

This tide even raises the boats of pressing plants... People get into collecting records by buying lathe cuts from small
touring and local bands and end up buying pressed records from more established bands.

[fraggle]

you say you are cutting on picnic plates. do you know what kind of material that is?
cheers

[piaptk]

you say you are cutting on picnic plates. do you know what kind of material that is?
cheers

it's just a standard plastic "solo" type
picnic plate. I buy them at safeway grocery stores, because they the only ones in my area that sells plates large enough to cut on. They are about 7"s wide once you cut off the rims. These are the store
brand. I'd be happy to send you some
for cost plus shipping if you wanna experiment. There is some surface noise, which disappears when you drop the highest frequency on your stereo, but in general are the best sound you will get on a cheap
material.

[MEGAMIKE]

yes i agree piapi and fractles.
but for others ,comparing wow and flutter discrepancys between recordings of lathes, is
"PISSPOOR" judgement if you ask me..
who cares.
.own the lathe your comenting on before you post....
.sorry..
and the judgement of selling your services with a vr ,that its not of good quality ,is a bad one..
23 local bands
7 international bands
all happy customers that are blind to the wow and flutter, and that iam very guilty that i have ripped them all off blind even though they are happy with the product.

[MEGAMIKE]

i will give them all there money back if they read this post and then go back and listen to the vinyl and ring me up and say"hey Mega ya wanka you sold me wow and flutter records you punk" ..

[petermontg]

maybe we should get steve to make a sticky for vr discussions, they seem to be taking over this board

[mossboss]

Sticky?
No way keep at it guys plenty of space here There are more than this thread here on VR V Kingston V vestax V Presto V whatever
No dramas just keep on fellows the discussions seems to just go on and on and on
What we may need its a wiki as someone suggested in the past as it appears that with any new member the same stuff seems to be talked over and over most of this has been covered previously but the search button never gets to work for some people
No big deal it saves a lots of double post's
Cheers

[graph]

Hi guys, I wonder..

The platter on the SP15 is 15.7 inches.. is the SP15 sufficient & able enough to accomodate 14" laquers to be cut?

Anyhow when adapting the Vinylrecorder to use feedback cutterhead & sapphire/appropriate stylus, it is then possible to cut laquer?

Cheers.

[Factorcuts]

I understand how the weight of the head affects the rotation of the platter!
That is why I am going to eventually get the extra motor, and a sp10!
I mentioned that already a few times! But u are so ready to talk crap about souri and the VR, and justify spending whatever extreme amount of money on ur grundy restored lathe! Im brand new to cutting, ive had a calling to do it for quite some time now, and I feel that since Everything involved with using a neumann involves lots of money, I would rather learn basic skills on a quality cheaper not so hard to find and maintain machine! Like zimbo said...if u do one thing wrong with any machine its a costly mistake! And having a neumann doesnt make u a better cutter!
If I get thru a VR and still have such a burning desire to cut then go for a 50k$ machine! And just getting the machine is the tip of the iceberg!
But still from my observations, having the steel plate makes a better cut than not having it, and when I do add the extra motor...much less a sp10, then whats the argument? Plenty of peeps out there that have multiple systems and prAise the VR aswell as othermachines, its mostly peeps who have some internal interest to dislike souri and the VR, haters souri calls them! And because of haters, just as I do with any forum, I will no longer post or actively participate in forums! If u read thru opcode66 posts he is always telling sombody his opinion based on things he reads or his opinions! He is just a novice like me! Ive read alot of online info and all the threads, but I dont attempt to tell anybody anything! Im just here to learn and relay my actual expierience to people. The only peeps that should be really telling peeps their opinions and such are peeps like mossy and paul gold, montrino, and others who have been doing this for longer than a twinkle in your eye minute! The rest of us just need to ask questions keep our mouths shut and listen!
So I will just PM from now on and skip over novice know it all posts!


But I could go on and on, but I wont, this is exactly the reason I dont post to forums! Zimbo also said that most of the people on here who have so much time to post and tell everybody what they think,..most of those peeps(unless they are true veterens) dont really make that good of cuts, regardless of the machine they have! It takes years of dedication to attempt to master this art form, and if ur typing ur theories and rebuttals all the time u cant be spending much time cutting!

[Factorcuts]

I mean shoots man, kid koala thinks the VR was a worthy buy! Im pretty sure that he is a crazy audiophile that wouldnt buy something that recorded crap! Much less several peeps out there...with established clientelle that are very happy with the VR!

Souri was all they all hate me on that forum and they will hate you too!

Factorcuts signing off, cutting instead of typing!

[greybeard]

Ah, another good man lost to cutting!

Nevetheless, opcode66 made some good points yesterday about the requirements for turntables. What I’m going to write has probably been said already in one form or the other on Lathe Trolls, but people may not want to work their way back for the information. Those who know it already can merely pass this by – unless they want to catch me out! That will hopefully create comments so that the general information level (including mine) will increase.

There are 3 ways that we get a modern turntable to rotate: a mechanical transmission, i.e. puck or belt, a slow-speed synchronous motor, or a D.C. motor with very good feedback. The slow-speed synchronous motor may be of two kinds: the correct number of poles for the mains frequency (multipole) or fewer poles and a local oscillator with power amplifier.

The two first depend on a very heavy turntable (well, to be absolutely correct, on a very high moment of inertia) for correct functioning: it maintains the rpm even if the supply of torque is a bit uneven and even if the load is a bit uneven. The puck or belt performs some filtering, but slippage means that it is difficult to maintain the rpm absolutely spot-on. Acceleration is slow and hard on the drive - it wears the mechanics.

A multipole synchronous motor has a small vibration in its torque at harmonics of the mains frequency, and for this reason a mechanical low-pass filter is put into the link. Neumann lathes are like this. The impractical thing about multipole synchronous motors is that they are not self-starting; you can only apply drive voltage to them if they are already at synchronous speed. So, for instance the Lyrec motor has a small starter motor. I myself accelerate the turntable (not Neumann) by hand before switching on. That way I maintain a feeling for the moment of inertia involved. And it is perfectly OK and will not damage the mechanical filter because the moment of inertia of the motor is very small compared to the turntable.

The local oscillator motor construction may in fact be very similar to the feedback D.C. motor. The local oscillator motor construction drives the motor with a synthesized frequency (may also use a crystal as reference). It is made self-starting by tailoring the frequency, pulling the rpm up with it. The feedback D.C. motor construction is the same as a brushless D.C. motor, which has a speed signal output; either from a special winding, from Hall elements, or from an optical encoder. The fastest-acting feedback is by using a rate-of-change of speed, and either the amplitude or the frequency of the driving voltage is changed to bring the rate-of-change of the speed back to zero. However, the main feedback is by comparing the frequency of the speed signal to the desired frequency and supplying power to making the difference zero. Provided the magnetic coupling in the motor is strong, what you have in effect made is an electronic flywheel, and the turntable itself does not have this function. For this reason it may be problematic to place a further flywheel on top of the turntable, because the regulation may actually become poorer – it depends on the kind of feedback that is used.

All of this will not work unless the turntable has a substantial bearing that will tolerate a load that is not symmetrical around the shaft. This means it has to be good, both vertically (to prevent rumble) and horizontally (to avoid wobble or uneven bearing friction). That is why precision bearings are so expensive and not fitted to ordinary gramophones in the trade.

May your shanks have flats!, best wishes


P.S. There is one statement from Factorcuts that I would like to improve on: "having a neumann doesnt make u a better cutter!". Now, this is true, but it is not the whole story. What you get from a well-maintained Neumann is consistency in results. It is easier to compare what you have just done with prior attempts than if you use a setup that is working near the limits of what it will do. "What is the horsepower of my Rolls?" "At all times sufficient to your needs, Sir!").

[pete_d]

On a different note, has anyone noticed a huge surge in the demand (and providers of) lathecuts recently? 2 years ago, Peter king was the only game in the world for affordable mass produced lathe cuts, and in the last few months there have been several cutters popping up offering similar services. I'm excited about this... As are all of the bands I know that can't sell 300+ records. Everyone that I know that cuts records as a service seems oberwhelmed with orders. It's great!

This tide even raises the boats of pressing plants... People get into collecting records by buying lathe cuts from small
touring and local bands and end up buying pressed records from more established bands.

Absolutley spot on, lathe cuts also make it possible for small labels like mine to put interesting vinyl releases out and in most cases make them a lot more specialist than bigger labels. There is a huge vinyl interest in the world of underground music and long may it continue!

all the best

Pete

[MEGAMIKE]

nice site pete..
was that a book vinyl/comp i saw

[fraggle]

@Factorcuts
you shouldn't be pissed off so quickly man. Who cares what people say at the end of the day you are doing your own thing anyway don't ya?
I'm not saying anything about this vr vs kingston discussion anymore i'm over it hehe
Cheers mate

[pete_d]

nice site pete..
was that a book vinyl/comp i saw

unfortunately not, its maybe the gatefold?
thanks, but a book/vinyl project is something we are looking at!

[Factorcuts]

Well im not the fastest cutter in the world, and waiting to be able too afford new diamonds and the whole mail system making me wait a month to get back at it! But ive got 20 solid cuts in 3 days! I feel pretty good about it, all my lead in grooves and lead out locked grooves, no skips. Sounds pretty good! Now if only we could figure out how to make the center of the plate sound just as good as the outside!
I had too move my studio this month in a rush, I had it set up in this old haunted bordello, jack londons favorite nightclub! Oldest building in the bay, site of the first bay area raves, ect ect, awesome spot I held down as my private underground club for the last four years! Seems some herb growers in the area brought thieves to the block, and a couple of home invasions later, im no longer first mate on the ghost ship! Long story!

But too greybeard...thank you for your wisdom
and true knowledge! I read your post over a few times over the last few days and the words have sunk in. They just reaffirm
my original post...I always knew the tecnics 1210 is subpar, and soon I will get a SP10...I didnt know that the extra plate might actually make my quartz drive worse...but until I upgrade, I think that it helps!! Either from even heating, or imagination! I did cut a local bands last album for a test to see if we want to cut their next album, these guys are all about the analog and sound, they are called the yard dogs road show maybe you have heard them? But we all agreed that the cut made the last album
sound better! Sure it wasnt mastered for cutting, but I was able to get it too sound cherry enough for us common folk. I would of course likea VMS82 like I said before, but what im really likeing about this VR is learing to do every adjustment by hand, locked grooves by hand, pitch control
by hand, you have too really monitor everything to make it come
out right! Now I would love too learn all the controlls on the neumann, but like ive been saying...for my skill level, learning close up and hands on is cool! I debated just getting a VMS in the first place, heck Ive got Al
Grundy's phone number in my contacts! Im going to furthur improve on the statement I made that greybeard improved on...how does my royce roll? Or having a better lathe doesnt make u a better cutter statement!......
If im learning how to be a pilot and Ive never flown before, do I want too learn in a simple biplane or glider? Single prop? Or should I just get behind the stick of a BlueAngel and get slingshot off the deck of an aircraft carrier for my first time? Like a virgin getting her cherry popped, could be on a blanket at the beach, or on a porn set? Sorry but you get my point! Now if I was going into this from an industry point of view, I would just go too a facility like zenith in australia and be like I want to learn how to cut and I want to learn on the real equipment! But for me with a three year old and loving SF bay...then my thought were...well I still want to cut(all i think about)and do I want to get some old presto magic? Some wilcoxgay thing? Find spare parts? Or go with the current models? One of the reasons I went with the VR is because everybody who didnt own the current version hated on it! Souri treats me super cool! And the alternative is vinyllium which is way more, and still just hooks up too a tecnics1210, so i listened to some test cuts, at first I was only interested from
a dj/producer point of view for minimal techno dubstep ect. I thought cutting actual band made music was going too be difficult! Now I realize cutting bands isnt that hard, if the master is on, and cutting electronic isnt hard its less time and im friends with all the producers so getting them to change the master is easy, they love to pull out the macbook and fiddle with stuff! I have plenty of messed up plastic laying around to do sample cuts till we get it too sound right! From there its just consistency with the cuts! Which brings me back too greybeard, the VR is always consistent its just a question of whether or not the operator is consistent! Everything has to be checked and adjusted by hand before and during the cut! There are no buttons to push in the actual mechanics of the VR cutting setup, so you really get a hands on learning expirience with the system! Someday (when my wife says its ok) I will get a VMS#? If im still called too do this...but for now im not unhappy with my techno and deep bass dub cuts on my vinyl(not laquer, the topic of this thread is one off vinyl limited runs, thats why I was gettin into it with opcode, he was laughing on the floor telling me how my system couldnt cut a decent laquer, and other tweaky comments trying to harsh my mellow) and I just cut divided sky and YEM by phish, both tunes that feature 20+ second held notes and chords, me and my bro couldnt hear anything out of the ordinary on my mackie sound system, my phase correlation meters said all good, our ears said all good, I didnt get out my audio-microscope to check for flutter! But the cut sounded more like the live show than the MP3, much less the wave files,the mastered CD, and im pricing reel to reel tape recorders, if anyone has tips about reel to reel please PM me.
Which brings me to megamike, comparing wow and flutter IS pisspoor(especially for novices), and know your machine before talking about how it works! I kno the VR, and the VMS#? Im sure lives up to its legend! I almost called AL Grundy last christmas because I was in Long Island and he lives there, but my girl was all..."if u call him u wont turn back! Learn on training wheels then if u want to compete call him!" Now I believe I can make my VR into a hybrid neumann...step by step!
Which brings me too piatpac or fraggle, your right dont get upset! Thanks bro!
Which brings me too opcode66...dude your the classic forum guy, always ready to inform, thanks you helped me out and taught me alot! Keep on keepin on!
Too the rest of you trolls...like souri says
Ja Ja Ja
cut cut cut

peace,
benefactor out

[MEGAMIKE]

Which brings me to megamike, comparing wow and flutter IS pisspoor(especially for novices), and know your machine before talking about how it works! I kno the VR, and the VMS#?

i was not talkin about you .

laqures are differant than poly..

[MEGAMIKE]

and ...recording reel to reel too vinylrecorder is very nice.great thinkness in sound..
love the hunted bordello story,how old is the building? .. .

[Factorcuts]

Sorry that came out wrong!
I should have said too megamike... Thanks bro your totally right!
I do all this internet stuff from my Iphone these days and typing gets crazy!
Ive checked out you myspace and your personal myspace and some of your friends! I dont do myspace currently! It gets me in trouble, I find it to be a easy way to hit on chicks I dont know and sometimes inadvertantly I do know their current boyfriends, and it gets me into trouble! But ive been considering making a new one for my factorcuts business. Regardless I really like what you are doing mike, and im taking notes! I copied your instructions on how to prepare the master to be cut and Im in the process of handing the instructions out too my producers! Thanks! When I get downunder I have a few peeps and places on my list and you have been added next to the already marked perth....perthfect!

So maybe we can talk about reel to reel, what brand? Ect... Start a new thread(i could probably search and get some answers, and I havent asked zimbo or souri yet, just had the notion), or just some PMs?

Thanks,
gooday mate
factor