Short runs of lathe cut : where? who?

[mossboss]

This thread has raised the hair on the back of my head Besides the fact that guys that do rip someone elses work to do they thing they also want the pressing plants ass slung as well

On another point!
Than the twist goes on with comments like they are pretty cheap
How many more plants do you guys want to see going down?
For a community of the likes of us here we should be supporting a fair price level for pressed records
I very rarely see a single 7" selling at gigs for less than 4-5 times the cost paid to the pressing plant and yet people will screw the pressing guys down to the last cent or complain after the event for a discount for various reasons some valid most of the times not so
About time for a reality check for some of the vinyl record pressing dudes out there

I just don't get it

Finally: and I will get some flack out of this I am sure Never mind here is my experience
Worst guys to press records for: Hip Hop
Best guys to press records for : Metal
People to stay away from regardless of price: Jazz
People that do not care real easy: Regae
other genre of music anywhere in between
Cheers

[fraggle]

that made me smile mossy thanks for that:)

[piaptk]

Than the twist goes on with comments like they are pretty cheap
How many more plants do you guys want to see going down?
For a community of the likes of us here we should be supporting a fair price level for pressed records
I very rarely see a single 7" selling at gigs for less than 4-5 times the cost paid to the pressing plant and yet people will screw the pressing guys down to the last cent or complain after the event for a discount for various reasons some valid most of the times not so
About time for a reality check for some of the vinyl record pressing dudes out there

I just don't get it

Speaking of raising the hair on the back of necks...

What kind of shows are you going? 4-5 TIMES the cost? In my scene (and it's been this way for the 20 years that I've been collecting records), you will NOT be able to sell a 7" at a merch table for more than $5 unles you have some kind of really crazy packaging to offer.

Let's look at the cost to a label to make a 7"...
500 7"s approximately $1200 when you figure in mastering, plating, pressing, shipping, fees, etc.

Plus $50 for plastic sleeves, let's say $200 for sleeves if you buy blanks and put hours and hours of work silkscreening them (and let's not even talk of compensating the label owner for his time to make the product)...

Then the label has to give the artist copies (in my case 10% of the run) and ship those to them.

So, a total of $1450 for 450 sellable records... that's $3.22 COST per record.

So, AT BEST, a label can make a 50% profit on a $1500 investment. And that's if they sell them through their websites... which is hard, because then the end consumer has to pay an extra $2.50 for postag, which generally brings the total cost above that $5 norm. So, the label has to either sell them to the band (to sell on tour) or a distributor for $3.50, so they profit a big fat $.27 per record.

You run your pressing plant as a BUSINESS, correct? An entity that provides a service in return for money, and is designed and priced to make a PROFIT???:??
Well, this may surprise you, but I'm willing to bet that 90% of vinyl labels (or the vinyl portion of co-format labels) do NOT operate on this model. For a band or label pressing records is a VANITY HOBBY. It is NOT profitable no matter how you slice it. If you are a huge band and can sell 10,000 records or more, sure there is some money to be made, but what percentage of records pressed actually sell anywhere close to that?

So, what, you want the average record geek who puts a ton of his own money and time into pressing records for a band he really loves, knowing full well that he will at best break even and at worst lose a ton of cash, to feel benevolence towards you, the poor record pressing plant , and rather than shop around for the best combination of price and quality, to want to pay you EXTRA so that you can make MORE money, while he LOSES more money? The people that buy records from you are doing it out of PASSION... they love music and they love vinyl a WHOLE lot more than they love money. Otherwise they would be in the film and television licensing racket selling tracks to the producers of Jersey Shore for $$$$$$.

Sorry Mossy, this isn't some kind of pressing plant welfare program. I guarantee you would look around for the best deal if you were buying a car, or a large electronics purchase right??? Don't you want that car salesman to live comfortably? By shopping around and paying as little as you can, you are taking food out of his mouth...

The businesses that succeed are businesses that have streamlined their companies to be efficient and have priced their product so that they can make an acceptable amount of money while keeping the price low enough to attract customers.
Those that can't make that happen, don't survive... like most vinyl labels, who have a short and exciting run before realizing what a stupid monetary decision it was. Mine for example... I am having a baby in February, and as such, in February, my vinyl label will end. I can no longer justify paying $1500 for a run of 7"s and then recouping maybe $400 in sales while I store the rest of the records in my garage and they take up space.

In a free enterprise system, there are many ways to differentiate yourself, the most common being price and quality. If you have high quality and there is a (generally smaller) market for superior quality, you can charge a premium. Or you can make less profit per order, sell it cheaper at an acceptable quality level and have a larger number of orders, and make more money that way. No one is going to pay you a premium jsut because they want to help you make more money when you are only one of 20 people that do what you do.

I'm sorry that you find having to compete for peoples business on price so emotionally taxing. I know it would be so much easier if you could just price it at whatever you want and have people blindly pay it.

[/rant]

[piaptk]

Vinyl records are a LUXURY GOOD... but it has the dubious distinction of being a luxury good that doesn't appeal to people with money. Outside of audiophile classical and jazz pressings, I am guessing (with only my own personal experience) that the lions share of record collectors are living below the poverty line and are sacrificing a good meal in order to buy a record. The industry itself is a low-profit animal.

And there are a LOT of people involved in the process from manufacturing the instruments to writing the song to recording the song to the label that promotes it to the person who audio masters it and the person who lacquer masters it, to the person who plates it to the person who presses it, to the company that ships it, to the person who sells it to the end consumer... and EVERY one of those people wants a cut of the action in exchange for their work. And when "the action" is a $5 piece of plastic and there were 15-20 people involved in making it, not to mention physical resources... I doubt anyone gets paid as much as they would like. God knows I don't make a cent with my label, although I spend more time working on it than I do my full time job.

[destro]

I don't see anything wrong with searching for the best quality and best price. I do that for pressing plants and I do that for lathe cutters.

I don't argue with people or try and talk down their prices. I just write a plant or person for a quote and pay what they ask. Supporting their business.

It's about price AND quality.

An example, there is a person here who cuts a lot of records for me. His prices are very good, but I know of a cheaper place. But I choose to pay a little more and use him, cause I love his quality and I consider him the best. It's worth it to me, definitely worth it to pay a little extra.

I appreciate all of the knowledge, skill and time people put into learning the craft of making records. I appreciate it very much.

I show my appreciation for lathe cutters and pressing plants for using their services and paying for them, including some people on this board I'm definitely not out to screw anybody, in fact it's in my interest to keep these people around as long as possible because I love their work and I want to keep using their services.

[andrea]

God knows I don't make a cent with my label, although I spend more time working on it than I do my full time job.

This does ring a bell to me.

As helping labels myself, I can tell you they are not making money at all (those I know). I even know some who loose cash. Mostly, the cash comes from the owners themselves. But they spent a lot time in.

The guys I know are passionate people. They still believe music has to be on a record, with a sleeve to look at (CD or vinyl). Most of them has no plan to make a living with, they just do it for the pleasure to do it.

Sure, some labels make money. Those ones able to press 2,000+ vinyls...And able to sell them.
But more and more, labels only press 300, 500 LPs, 12", 7".

That's also why I asked for polycarbonate lathe cut here. Some are ready to put out very limited items with music on.

By the way, anyone heard from Cymbalism from Poly-cut.com recently?
I know someone still waiting for a reply, and records to arrive...

[cymbalism]

Hey Andrea

My email is fucked right now, about to totally switch server companies.

You should have your tests in a couple days, sent them out this week they came out beautiful. If I had means to post up a pic of them I would but like I said my server is totally acting up on me.

[andrea]

Hey!

I will forward this pretty good news to my friend. He was waiting for the tests to make a move for a small serie.

[cymbalism]

They came out great! I'm hoping he goes thru with the full run. The music is phenomenal and it's the first of it's kind that I've had the pleasure to cut for anyone. There needs to be more fusion/free jazz out there these days

[mossboss]

OK Guys
This is a very telling eye opening thread I like what I read It confirms the reason why we are not making any money as well
So are we all in a fund sinking boat than?
I will answer Tommies mail in detail No time at present
Cheers
and
Thanks

[cymbalism]

The guys I know are passionate people. They still believe music has to be on a record, with a sleeve to look at (CD or vinyl). Most of them has no plan to make a living with, they just do it for the pleasure to do it.

Sure, some labels make money. Those ones able to press 2,000+ vinyls...And able to sell them.
But more and more, labels only press 300, 500 LPs, 12", 7".

I'm in this boat with my drum n bass labels. I've had them going since 2003, started out pressing 300 per release for the first 3 singles until my uk distributor decided they wanted more than I could afford to press and gave me a pressing and distribution deal. Everything was good for a few years until cdjs and serato djs started forgetting how much better records sounded and wanted to save money by buying mp3s, the single nail which sealed the dance vinyl coffin in my opinion.

It used to be I could press 2000 records and have no problem selling them all and giving money to the artist for their music and everyone was happy. Now no one wants to sign anything to a label because they can put out their track on beatport or iTunes or whatever and get all the royalties whereas I'm still willing to out out a track on vinyl for someone but they still want money for their work which is really hard to promise these days.

Someday they will find out digital compression is causing hearing loss or something and people will switch back. As a dj of 16 years I can't stand digital in the clubs, it gives me serious ear ringing after a few hours but if I'm hosting my night where we play nothing but vinyl my ears have no issues at all.

I wish I could get diamonds at a decent price and just cut dance records in small runs for people and labels so people could actually get their songs out and make some cash instead of incur debt which isn't paid off until every piece is sold from mastering plating and pressing.

[piaptk]

OK Guys
This is a very telling eye opening thread I like what I read It confirms the reason why we are not making any money as well
So are we all in a fund sinking boat than?
I will answer Tommies mail in detail No time at present
Cheers
and
Thanks

I'm guessing you mean me (Mike) not Tommie (Cymbalism).

Is your business currently making money? As in, revenue exceeds expenses? Probably.... as any business should. This is probably NOT the case for many (if not most) of your customers.

That is why I took offense at your inference that bands and labels are benefitting and raking in tons of cash while you are being nickeled and dimed to death by them going to other pressing plants who are cheaper. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will TRY to get discounts, freebies, etc... but, you have the option of accepting their offer, or, if it is not lucrative enough, you can decline it and they can try to go somewhere else. The general economy sucks everywhere, and the music industry is hit especially hard. You can't blame anyone for trying to minimize costs.

Chris, you have a lot of knowledge about the technical side of all this that I really enjoy reading about. However, many of the things that you post regarding your perceived causes of the declining state of your business or perhaps just the pressing plants in general.... people with home cutters edging out mastering guys with nice setups (which I find extremely unrealistic), and this, really put me on edge. You should really look more at the overall picture of your industry and everyone, including hobbyists and your customers overall piece in it. Concentrating exclusively on a "Mossy-centric" perspective is not going to behoove you in growing your business.

Pressing plants have been going out of business over the last 30 years because of a lot of reasons, mostly the changing way in which people listen to music... blaming it on the people who are actually keeping the industry alive, the luddites who are still pressing records, is counterproductive.

On a long-term timeline, is this big collective boat sinking? Very possibly... Each generation gets sleeker and more streamlined... they don't "Collect". They live light and they move around. Why have 2000 LPs when you can fit more music than that in your pocket. and why PAY for 2000 albums when you can download it for free? I teach high school, and this is the reality of a 15 year old in 2010.

[andrea]

Hi Tommie,

I've met my friend today, I was hoping he could show me the LPs you cut for him as you said here you've posted the records 2 weeks ago... But he still hasn't received anything.

He told me it was first shipped by last week of september, then returned to you for custom reasons...Then he sent you extra cash to cover the second shipment cost as he needed the records quite urgently... It was about a month ago. Since, no news from you.

Please, contact him directly to let him informed about what's happening on his project. That could be nice.

[cymbalism]

Hi Tommie,

I've met my friend today, I was hoping he could show me the LPs you cut for him as you said here you've posted the records 2 weeks ago... But he still hasn't received anything.

He told me it was first shipped by last week of september, then returned to you for custom reasons...Then he sent you extra cash to cover the second shipment cost as he needed the records quite urgently... It was about a month ago. Since, no news from you.

Please, contact him directly to let him informed about what's happening on his project. That could be nice.

Hey Andrea

I'll hit up yann and let him know and I'll cut another pair tonight and send em out tomorrow for him as well. I'd much rather spend the money and get him his records than have him pay for something and get nothing.

Thanks for letting me know!

[pete_d]

hello all

this has all got very interesting, one solution I have come up with is to continue with the limited lathe cuts in pizza boxes, they are all selling out although to keep the prices reasonable I 'make' £1 or £2 on each one!
But I also decided to offer people a digital download option too, usually with extra tracks not available on the vinyl, not everyones cup of tea I know but to keep things ticking over it was the best solution for me.

Sales of the lathes are increasing but as it is only really viable to get a max of 50 lathes done, any more and you may as well get them pressed. For me this means that I can put more releases out, which is a good thing.

THats my tuppence worth

cheers

Pete

[mossboss]

OK Guys
This is a very telling eye opening thread I like what I read It confirms the reason why we are not making any money as well
So are we all in a fund sinking boat than?
I will answer Tommies mail in detail No time at present
Cheers
and
Thanks

I'm guessing you mean me (Mike) not Tommie (Cymbalism).

Is your business currently making money? As in, revenue exceeds expenses? Probably.... as any business should. This is probably NOT the case for many (if not most) of your customers.

That is why I took offense at your inference that bands and labels are benefitting and raking in tons of cash while you are being nickeled and dimed to death by them going to other pressing plants who are cheaper. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will TRY to get discounts, freebies, etc... but, you have the option of accepting their offer, or, if it is not lucrative enough, you can decline it and they can try to go somewhere else. The general economy sucks everywhere, and the music industry is hit especially hard. You can't blame anyone for trying to minimize costs.

Chris, you have a lot of knowledge about the technical side of all this that I really enjoy reading about. However, many of the things that you post regarding your perceived causes of the declining state of your business or perhaps just the pressing plants in general.... people with home cutters edging out mastering guys with nice setups (which I find extremely unrealistic), and this, really put me on edge. You should really look more at the overall picture of your industry and everyone, including hobbyists and your customers overall piece in it. Concentrating exclusively on a "Mossy-centric" perspective is not going to behoove you in growing your business.

Pressing plants have been going out of business over the last 30 years because of a lot of reasons, mostly the changing way in which people listen to music... blaming it on the people who are actually keeping the industry alive, the luddites who are still pressing records, is counterproductive.

On a long-term timeline, is this big collective boat sinking? Very possibly... Each generation gets sleeker and more streamlined... they don't "Collect". They live light and they move around. Why have 2000 LPs when you can fit more music than that in your pocket. and why PAY for 2000 albums when you can download it for free? I teach high school, and this is the reality of a 15 year old in 2010.

Ok Mike
Very Busy lately no time available so no detailed answer but here is a snapshot
Running a pressing plant is no walk in the park
Your numbers are about right
I do not think that there is a plant out there rolling in it
It hard to get efficient running 30-50 year old equipment with 40-100 plus yo operators, or plating and maintenance guys as that is where the knowledge is
Any way I am involved in a few self contained vinyl record pressing plants all with cutting plating and pressing in different countries
We press around 1.5 Million records per year
I would have thought I have a clue or two of what is going on
A few extra dimes not nickels would ensure the on going supply supply of these "Luxury Goods"
That is until the old farts who are there go to meet they maker
In simple terms we are doing it for the love of it as well as there is never any surplus of cash ever
So may be your 15 YO's will have a chance to buy some in the future as well but I doubt that they would work in a pressing shop
Cheers

[piaptk]

Ok Mike
Very Busy lately no time available so no detailed answer but here is a snapshot
Running a pressing plant is no walk in the park
Your numbers are about right
I do not think that there is a plant out there rolling in it
It hard to get efficient running 30-50 year old equipment with 40-100 plus yo operators, or plating and maintenance guys as that is where the knowledge is
Any way I am involved in a few self contained vinyl record pressing plants all with cutting plating and pressing in different countries
We press around 1.5 Million records per year
I would have thought I have a clue or two of what is going on
A few extra dimes not nickels would ensure the on going supply supply of these "Luxury Goods"
That is until the old farts who are there go to meet they maker
In simple terms we are doing it for the love of it as well as there is never any surplus of cash ever
So may be your 15 YO's will have a chance to buy some in the future as well but I doubt that they would work in a pressing shop
Cheers

I understand all that, and never implied that you were rolling it. However, you are making a living making records, which most musicians do not. They spend their hard earned money from their day job to press a record that they will probably never sell out of, simply because they love the format. And your original post implied that musicians were getting rich at the expense of your operation, which is 180 degrees removed from reality. I know that the per record cost of a record is very low. A few extra nickel and dimes, however, would put your customer (at least the small indies like myself) out of business. It is putting me out of business. I will not be pressing anymore records through plants. I just can't afford to do it anymore. I have released 20 full run records and only ONE has recouped just the cost of pressing. It could be said that I'm not choosing the right bands, doing enough amrketing, etc and those are all fair points... however, even if I DO sell out, my maximum profit on a 500 12" (with an investment of $2000) is about $500 with a standard combination of distro, bands, and web sales. That is a horrible return on investment in anyones book. That is why I always look for the best combination of price, service, and quality.

[petermontg]

if a label cant afford the whole pressing on a release they usal spilt the cost with another label or distro, this is how we do it in europe anyhow.

just an example

i play in a band weve done countless tours of the hardcore/punk/DIY gigs here in europe. our irish label here in ireland is on its knees at the moment. we have a spilt 12" coming out before xmas with our label, a dutch label, and an irish distro this is the only we can afford to put this format out.

its a shame it is so exspensive for independent bands to get vinyl done but its not ging to get cheaper which is the real shame

[piaptk]

if a label cant afford the whole pressing on a release they usal spilt the cost with another label or distro, this is how we do it in europe anyhow.

just an example

i play in a band weve done countless tours of the hardcore/punk/DIY gigs here in europe. our irish label here in ireland is on its knees at the moment. we have a spilt 12" coming out before xmas with our label, a dutch label, and an irish distro this is the only we can afford to put this format out.

its a shame it is so exspensive for independent bands to get vinyl done but its not ging to get cheaper which is the real shame

That is what I've been doing with my final few releases... splitting it with three other labels. That minimizes the investment per label but there still isn't anyone making money on it. Now, instead of making $500 profit per run for a $2000 investment, you are now making $166 profit on an $700 investment. Still not very good.

I do think that sites like Kickstarter make it possible to make money on vinyl if you have enough benevolent fans with money. You can get the whole run paid for and have plenty of stock to sell if you want to put in some extra effort for pledge prizes. Stuff like writing a song specifically for someone who pleges $100+, limited edition t-shirts, personal phone calls, etc. It's a cool site if you haven't checked it out. Seriously considered doing a kickstarter to fund buying my first 6n. Glad I didn't,. though... I would have offered up a bunch of pledge prizes I couldn't have delivered on (for a long time at least)...

[mossboss]

Ok Mike
A few extra dimes not nickels would ensure the on going supply supply of these "Luxury Goods"
Cheers

I understand all that, and never implied that you were rolling it. However, you are making a living making records, which most musicians do not. They spend their hard earned money from their day job to press a record that they will probably never sell out of, simply because they love the format. And your original post implied that musicians were getting rich at the expense of your operation, which is 180 degrees removed from reality. I know that the per record cost of a record is very low. A few extra nickel and dimes, however, would put your customer (at least the small indies like myself) out of business. It is putting me out of business. I will not be pressing anymore records through plants. I just can't afford to do it anymore. I have released 20 full run records and only ONE has recouped just the cost of pressing. It could be said that I'm not choosing the right bands, doing enough amrketing, etc and those are all fair points... however, even if I DO sell out, my maximum profit on a 500 12" (with an investment of $2000) is about $500 with a standard combination of distro, bands, and web sales. That is a horrible return on investment in anyones book. That is why I always look for the best combination of price, service, and quality.

Well I will be farked
You are telling me and the whole vinyl world out there that on a $2,000.00 investment you want to make $500 out of it and it is not a good investment???????????????? Horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is a 25% margin mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is not being nickeled or dimed either
If any plant out there made 15% I would be surprised as it is more like 7-8% on a job to job basis without any mishaps
I would be jumping over the moon at that margin mate and most likely reduce the prices if it was the case
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
WTF
Cheers