Direct Cut Discs in the USA ??

[alienmanstk]

Hello- I cut discs myself, but nothing to the quality as the pros, it's great for experimental lofi, but my band is really looking to get our ep cut on a limited run of records. Looking for cutters rather than pressings.

Is there anyone out there besides the great Peter King who does the same kind of work for the similar price? I most likely will go with Peter. I just have the feeling that he is backed up with projects, and it could take a long time.

Please message me or respond if you are interested or know of anyone!

Thanks,
Sam

[TotalSonic]

Here's a couple of places doing in the USA:
http://www.poly-cut.com
http://corporaterecords.biz

I believe there are a number of others as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[fraggle]

I don't wanna be smart but you'll get what you pay for....
cheers

[Aussie0zborn]

With all due respect to Mr King (who happens to be a very nice guy) he is not the one and only. There are plenty of people doing what he does although he was proably one of the first to cut in non-standard materials. I think you can get higher fidelity these days.

The two services Steve has listed above might just be what you're looking for.

[MEGAMIKE]

HI we do them but we are not in USA

[piaptk]

With all due respect to Mr King (who happens to be a very nice guy) he is not the one and only. There are plenty of people doing what he does although he was proably one of the first to cut in non-standard materials. I think you can get higher fidelity these days.

The two services Steve has listed above might just be what you're looking for.

The last few batches of records I've gotten done through Peter have sounded REALLY good. The stuff I was getting from him four years ago was very hit or miss, but he's really gotten it dialed in recently.

[piaptk]

There are several other people doing the low run records, Tommie and Adam (from above) included, as well as Single Piece Slate, but they all seem to be super backed up. MegaMike, are your prices comparable to these guys?

Also, I just sold two of my lathes to my buddies in Austin, and they may be starting a cutting business in the next month or two. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of demand. Wish I had the time/patience to do it for other people. I think I'd shoot myself if I had to listen to some harsh noise, drone, or lame pop punk record 50 times in a row.

[opcode66]

I will also be offering short runs very soon. I will post a link to the web site currently under construction. (I'm literally working on it right now.)

Pricing, options and order placement will be up soon.

I also have a VERY GOOD price for pressing 100 units instead of having plastic cut. Polycarbonate plastic blanks are not cheap. For the price of 100 pressed records I could only cut 26 plastic discs.

[concretecowboy71]

This thread has me very curious.

What is the profit margin on short runs like this?

It seems after buying the gear, sourcing the blanks and stylus learning the craft, there is no money here for your time.

Perhaps I am missing something really important but if I were writing a business plan for this kind of work, it seems that it would fall very short of being a viable money maker.

Some of those sites offer over 20 minutes of music for $14! After expenses it seems like you are making less $20 per hour on a good day. Not counting blown blanks and servicing your gear.

What kind of lathes do people use for this kind of work?

[TotalSonic]

This thread has me very curious.

What is the profit margin on short runs like this?

Based on what a lot of the potential market seems to be willing to pay for them: low to non-existent.

It seems after buying the gear, sourcing the blanks and stylus learning the craft, there is no money here for your time.

Yup - for most involved in doing lathe cuts it's a labor of love and a fun hobby rather than something they make their living from.

Perhaps I am missing something really important but if I were writing a business plan for this kind of work, it seems that it would fall very short of being a viable money maker.

and you would be correct! The only way to make it work is to do something like Peter King has:
have extremely low overhead for your facility, know how to fix and maintain your own equipment, don't invest much in the gear, and have multiple lathes (Peter has 4 of them) so you're not just making a single piece in real time.
The other way to make it work is charge a lot for each copy.

Some of those sites offer over 20 minutes of music for $14! After expenses it seems like you are making less $20 per hour on a good day. Not counting blown blanks and servicing your gear.

Well - if you already have paid off your mortgage or have ultra cheap rent then even $15/hour might be ok for some. Seems to me making lathe cuts on your own schedule would be better than being an assistant manager at Mickey D's!

What kind of lathes do people use for this kind of work?

Seems Souri Vinyl Recorders, Prestos and Rek-o-kuts are most commonly used by those offering these services for cheap. Most lathe cuts being offered (including those by Peter King) are mono - and most often do not have what is usually considered "professional mastering caliber" processing available for them.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[concretecowboy71]

OK.

Thanks for the insight!

It seemed that doing every piece in real time would be ultra tedious work, but it does beat being a greeter at Wal-Mart!

[piaptk]

I bought 4 presto 6ns with the plan of starting a business doing it and quickly realized that when you figure in the wasted blanks and the time/needle wear it took to cut those aborted blanks it just wasn't worth it... Plus, hving to listen to the same crappy band over and over again would drive me nuts. I am in regular contact with many of the people that offer these services and the vibe I am
getting is that they are going to (rightly so) up their prices or change their offeings pretty soon. I was going to offer one sided picnic plates for $2 a piece, which would net about $60 an hour if you cut four at a time, but there are so many weird variables that I don't ha e the technical
wizardry to control, I decided tht it wouldn't be worth it to me to cut anything other than records for my label or for my close personal
friends. I have ultimate respect for Tommie, Adam, SPS, Peter king and my friends in Tx who may be picking up the torch... You are bigger men than I am, to be sure!

It's a shame, and a catch 22, because in order for these people to make even $15/hr of actual profit (which is nothing for someone with a specific skill and speialized equipment) they would have to charge almost double what they do now, which puts lathe cuts WAY out of the price range of anyone hoping to sell them to even approach breaking even. I've spent 5 years running a money pit vanity label putting thousands of hours of work into packaging, etc And selling them
as affordably as possible while
still giving the bands copies, only to lose thousands of dollars every year for the privilege of working with bands I love. At some point you have to
find a way of making it sustainable.

[fraggle]

Sorry guys but you are way too cheap.
People are willing to pay more for a quality recording.
Why would you sit down an hour for 10 bucks?
I don't get it..

[piaptk]

Sorry guys but you are way too cheap.
People are willing to pay more for a quality recording.
Why would you sit down an hour for 10 bucks?
I don't get it..

One off dub plate customers are willing/able to pay more for recordings, but indie labels really can't pay TOO much more because they have to pay for packaging and making sure that the bands get a reasonable number of copies.

That being said, there is definitely a better balance of price/workload than most of these guys are working at now. Rais the price until your workload gets more manageable. They are all way backed up, which definitely indicates that they are too cheap, but they definitely can't charge $40 a record like some dubcutters charge.

[cymbalism]

Thanks for the kind words Mike.

Boris, to answer your question - for me it's because I'm helping someone realize their artwork into something that is more personal than a burned cdr. The people I've worked with so far are very cool and passionate about their music and their projects. It's a whole different world from what I was dealing with in pressing electronic music. With the lathe cuts, people are involved in making the records their own. They are excited and gracious when they get them back and hear them and sell them and want to do more with me. In the electronic scene it's about money period. No one gives a fuck about their artwork or want to get involved other than how fast I could get it out and how much they would get in their pockets. I've been in the dj scene for close to 20 years now and it's only gotten worse. No one helps anyone whereas with the lathe cuts, people tell someone then they tell someone and before you know it you have new friends all over the place talking to you about anything not where's my money all the time. It's made me realize I need to get back to my music roots and make some records I can listen to at home instead of at the club - I'll always have the dj thing and will play drum n bass until no one cares anymore but I'm not gonna try to bust my ass for a scene who doesn't appreciate my time anymore, especially when it costs me money to make it happen for them, including unappreciative people out there who I helped break out and become someone only to get shunted later when they're "someone".

It is a labor of love, it's time consuming and tedious but it's personal and heartfelt unlike running a label or pressing them. Don't get me wrong, if I could offer pressing and still have the type of relationship I have with my clients I would offer it but then it kinda loses it's luster in being a one of a kind thing which essentially it is. I wish I could make a little more doing this but at the end of the day it's not really about the money, it's about helping someone realize their dream and getting their art out there and putting something out there in the world which if taken care of properly will last forever.

[piaptk]

Well said, Tommie. That is what keeps me doing my label as well. I've made so many amazing friends and learned so many cool skills that all the work is worth it.

I look at record making like yuppies look at golf. It costs money, you put the work in to get better, you make connections, and you get enjoyment out of it. Except that with this hobby you are bringing art into the world that will be around long after the tee-time is passed.

[fraggle]

all true!
but still for the time, money and headache of doing this it would be nice to make 20 bucks out of a record especially because it is something special for the customer!
I'm giviing records away for 20 bucks as well or for free but only for friends.
i have spend more than 10 000 dollar so far, i would not mind money coming back... at least some of it:)
cheers

[JayDC]

too bad high speed disc recording is not possible atm.. if flo ever gets around to inventing a cutting head that can cut high levels with a frequency range of 0hz-125Khz.. that would at least enable cutting records at 78 or 156rpm for play back at 33 or 45rpm with no loss of the upper high end frequencies...

They worked out "half-speed" cutting in high fidelity, no one has gone after "high-speed" cutting in high fidelity.. Guess there was really no need till now..

[mossboss]

Good thread indeed
Many many views Mike Tommie and Boris all have some good points the most obvious one is love of the art
Here is my point as a pressing man
After you have done the cut and if you are lucky all is well with the submitted work than fine Else you have a situation with all the associated dramas bad mastering bad mix bad band bad music and so on which need sorting out
Than you have to make metal work with its associated issues and go on to pressing out test records for approval so you can procced if approved with the actual pressing
The actual cost associated with the installation equipment as well as expertise as it involves a further two very expert areas galvanics and pressing its certainly not rewarded anywhere at all by the amount received for the final pressed record
We had this banter before with Mike where we both gave up in the end as it was not getting anywhere
All views here are certainly valid in so far as rewards in anything to do with cutting
Same as all the way to pressing them on vinyl of course
It is a labor of love indeed with just enough return to keep you doing it only if you are efficient or do not need the income for kids and mortgages as the shine is still there but the fruits of your labour you will never harvest apart from making people happy sometimes
And yes the dance scene is deadly Money Money Money they generally do not give a fuck at all Same goes for the wholesale guys on the same scene
Cheers

[subkontrabob]

too bad high speed disc recording is not possible atm.. if flo ever gets around to inventing a cutting head that can cut high levels with a frequency range of 0hz-125Khz.. that would at least enable cutting records at 78 or 156rpm for play back at 33 or 45rpm with no loss of the upper high end frequencies...

They worked out "half-speed" cutting in high fidelity, no one has gone after "high-speed" cutting in high fidelity.. Guess there was really no need till now..

It seems you haven't understood the reasons why "high speed cutting", as described by you, makes no sense.

Lets review some basic facts:

1. The wavelength of a sine wave cut to disk is proportional to the speed of the turntable - the faster the turntable revolves, the longer the inscribed waveform on the record.

2. A different playback speed for the aforementioned sine wave will yield a different frequency - a slower speed will decrease the frequency, a higher speed will increase frequency

3. Cutting speed and lpi setting determine the maximum recording time for the disk

4. The physical size of cutting and reproducing stylii dictates the upper frequency limit - if you want to cut and reproduce higher frequencies, you can cut the original signal at higher speeds (= longer wavelenghts on the record), and then also play back the recording at a higher speed. But you will have less recording time.

Half speed mastering only addresses the problems during the cut, the frequency limit for reproduction remains the same. That is why they manufacture elliptical needles.

Now, if you increase both turntable speed AND shift the whole spectrum up, the two will cancel each other out. You will get physically longer wavelengths, but the higher frequencies you want to cut have a shorter period -> shorter wavelength.

You will run into the same problem, the physical limit defined by the size of the cutting head.

Not to mention the difficulty of constructing a cutterhead to cut such high frequencies - they tried to do that for the analog video discs that never made the leap from lab to consumer.

Cutting a record is always a compromise between playing time, fidelity and loudness.......