limit of vinylrecorder T560?

[dimi751]

Hi marcy

What sound card are you using with reaper ?

How is the sound card output plugged into the souri riaa unit ?

Dimi

[sunkingrecords]

Do check the soundcard output.
I found that my M-audio Audiophile 2496 in certain settings introduces a two sample delay on one channel. Which is not that audible when the channels mix "in the air", but for cutting may introduce problems in the treble. Like notching of high frequencies.

Kind regards

Miguel

[marcy108]

i checked my soundcard.it's "Realtek AC97 audio".
it's old one in my recognition.
so i changed to ROLAND's audio interface.
i feel sound that i cut was changed little clear.
i will keep try to get more clear and treble.
later i will post result.

thanks.

[dimi751]

They Realtek sound cards are not suitable for record cutting that's my opinion
And also 3.5mm jack to RCA from the sound card is not the best output sound.

You need the cleanest possible sound source

Example: from your digital output from your PC then analog out from your sound card into line in on the souri riaa box.

If your on a budget this is a decent solution

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCA202.aspx

USB into the PC then RCA output from the behringer to the riaa box, I think it will sound far better than the Realtek sound card.

Peace
Dimi

[sunkingrecords]

If you use the Realtek it is important to turn off the integrated equalizer- it introduces hell of distortion and noise. At least on the board I tested.

Miguel

[dimi751]

Excellent point raised Miguel !

Keep us updated Marcy this info will be beneficial
For the other vinyl recorder user base in the forum

[handcut]

Marcy:

What are you using for a cutter amp?

[marcy108]

>sunkingrecords & DEMI
i updated my system.
i use audio interface like the behringer one.

PC --(USB)--> audio interface --(TRS cable)--> main unit --(RCA)--> amp ----> cutterhead

distortion and treble improved a little!
thank you very much.

but still not enough.
if i try to cut music that have much treble,sound that i cut is much different from master.

i suspect this is limit of VR...?
i set up a one hypothesis.
it's needed that stylus touch the blank softly for cut much treble groove.
in other words,if i want to cut much treble groove,i have to set cutterhead weight less.
but i don't want to set less weight,because it decrease lifetime of stylus.

when cutting record,it's needed that cutterhead weight be less in only much high treble part.
it is nomal weight whan other nomal treble part.
VR can't calibrate weight when it is cutting.
i guess NEUMANN can calibrate it.
how you feel this story?

>handcut
my amp bought by souri.

[opcode66]

Neumann doesn't use weight. There is a servo that controls the depth of cut. And, it is repeatable once set. As long as you don't change styli, remove the cutterhead, or use lacquers that aren't exactly the same height. The calibration is done via test cut with unmodulated groove while inspecting with the scope.

Typically, you really don't have to adjust the height much after you've done so. Before a master lacquer is cut, you do some test cut in the outer region (outside of the 12" diameter). You make any minor adjustments to get the groove width (and consequently depth) that you want. That is really dependent on the loudness of the cut. Louder needs deeper grooves to track well on playback. The standard groove is 2 Mils (2/1000 Inch). Louder music is cut at 3.5 Mils on my lathe. This means less recording time on the side. Louder means more lateral excursion, side to side movement (LL). If out of phase, that means more intense downward vertical motion, which creates a deeper cut, which is called Later for Vertical (LV). And, if you are cutting deeper to begin with, that means you are adding to the Later for Vertical (LV) space requirement. So, that means you burn through a side fast, FYI. Additionally, you burn through side faster at 45 vs 33.

One thing that professional cutters have to be much more aware of than dub cutters is to insure at least 1/2 Mil of land (empty space) between each groove. Even at the loudest passage. This insures proper pressing. If less than 1/2 Mil the pressed record will look dull and not shiny, it will have a lot of background noise. It is called a non-fill issue. Dub cutters don't have to worry about this and can pack grooves much tighter or with less abandon than professional cutter can when cutting for plating and pressing.

There is a depth computation that happens on the difference of the Left and Right channels. The amount that L and R are out of phase will tell the computer how much the cutting stylus will be moving up or down. It will compensate to insure that the stylus will never draw itself up past the minimum depth by tilting the front panel via the servo. If there is a lot of out of phase information, you will see the depth meter wiggling.

Hope that helps. Everything is made to be not only repeatable but also safe when cutting on a Nuemann. Sort of. There is still a lot that can go wrong. Especially because these machines are 40+ years old. There are many added features and failsafes not present in the Vinyl Recorder design. Not trying to belittle Souri's work. There is a distinct difference in the cost of manufacture of these two units.

[handcut]

Marcy, are you switching off the cutter amp in between each cut? I found that there is significantly less distortion with that particular amplifier when it is allowed to operate at a relatively stable temperature, rather than starting from cold every time. I know... it risks damaging the cutterhead, but I don't like constantly power-cycling everything - not least because the amp draws ~30A inrush and it was tripping the studio RCDs!

EDIT:

Oh, also, less weight = shallow grooves = longer stylus life. Less tension on the spring = more weight = deeper grooves... Follow Souri's advice! He chose those numbers for a reason!

[Big Al]

Hey Marcy

One thing that you have to consider as well is the physical limitation of cutting to disk (whatever the type - PVC / Acetate / PC etc..)
Listening to your master that you posted - it is very bright and limited / compressed and the cymbals / guitars that come in at around 7 seconds are very bright making a harsh sounding mix - obviously this is the sound that you were going for with the production of this track, but even cutting this master on a pro lathe then I think it will sound different from your digital master - less bright and with more perceived distortion on playback.

I would suggest getting a set of well produced reference songs, on CD as well as Vinyl, and then listening and hearing what is actually achievable when cutting a song to disk, then you will have a 'Target' from which to aim for.

I would also suggest remixing your track making it less harsh and you will probably find that you have less distortion when cutting.
It is obviously incredibly important to get the mix right and even more so when you want to cut that mix to disk.

Good luck!

Al.

[marcy108]

>TODD
thank you for posted your knowledge.
depth is tied to phase.therefore my hypothesis is not right.
why NEUMANN can cut much treble that can't cut by VR...?

>handcut
ok,i wil try the way that amp keep switching on in between each cut.

>>Oh, also, less weight = shallow grooves = longer stylus life
but if it set too less wight,lifetime of stylus will be shorter.

>AI
i think too.the master have too much harsh and be used much limiter and compressor.
i would pay attention to master mix.

-----------------
my updated is getting good condition.
quality of my sound is obviously better than before.
but i wish a step above.
because i feel my sound is not in front and not enough stereo image.
i keep on trying to update my system.

thanks.

[marcy108]

hi all.
i post my recent report.

at first,i had distortion problem.but i almost solved it.

1.change my sound card.poor one to better one.
2.change cable RCA to BALANCE.
3.i use souri's main unit.
4.i bypass souri's mixer and optimizer.
5.apply EQ(notch curve) on my DAW.

i could got good cutting with HIP HOP,REGGAE,FUNK,POP SONGS.
the sound is very near master sound.
and it have enough volume(+2~4db).

but i still can't cutting enough treble that harsh guitar like this.
https://soundcloud.com/user105332958/master

i know this treble is 5k.
but i rise up 5k on my DAW.
sound get distortion.

at the same time,i suspect that this master is not good for cutting.
because i guess it's used too much compressor and limiter.

anyway,can't i cut this master with good treble?
is this limit of vr?

any advice would be appreciated!
thanks.

MARCY

[dimi751]

Maybe your right it's just a limitations

But the Vr cutter head is made from tweeters off the shelf so I'm sure if you put an sx74 head on the vinyl recorder using the Neuman gear that you will get Different result a better result

You can always try the vinyl recorder feedback version head maybe worth a try ?

Another thing did you try changing the amplifier to see if that improved anything ?

Your doing well, hopefully you get closer to solving this mystery treble issue

[handcut]

...i still can't cutting enough treble that harsh guitar like this.
https://soundcloud.com/user105332958/master

at the same time,i suspect that this master is not good for cutting.
because i guess it's used too much compressor and limiter.

You've answered your own question - it is the master.

Your master has less than 0.5dB dynamic range in some places and less than 1dB in a lot of places - that will cause distortion. I compared it to a track by the band Ride called 'Dreams Burn Down' that also features loud, 'harsh' sounding guitars. Its from the original LP release, not the brickwalled CD remaster. Dynamic range is around 6dB for the most part and in the loudest, most face-meltingly shoe-gazing peaks the dynamic range is still around 2-3dB.

is this limit of vr?

Yes, but not only the VR. I imagine any cutting system would have a hard time cutting to +4dB (ref: 0dB @1kHz = 5cm/sec) with that specific master and not experiencing distortion*.


*yes, that was a deliberate attempt to get one of you Neumann users to say "piece of cake"

[marcy108]

>DIMI
i have changed another amplifier.but can't improve the problem.

i'm with you.if i can use feedback type cutterhead,i may improve that.
but i suspect souri's feedback cutterhead.
are somebody using it? and is it worthy?
i still don't know person who use it.

>HANDCUT
thank you for post your knowledge.
i will take care dynamic range keep 3-6db.
yes,i also guess NEUMANN can cut this harsh sounds.

i still don't solve this problem.
at moment,i cut treble(around 5k) against my will.so cutting sound is far from master.
any help would be appreciated!

thanks.
MARCY

[handcut]

>HANDCUT
thank you for post your knowledge.
i will take care dynamic range keep 3-6db.
yes,i also guess NEUMANN can cut this harsh sounds.

I'm not saying 3-6dB of dynamic range is a rule, merely that it is significantly less likely to cause problems than 1dB! Also, there is no guarantee that any system would be able to cut that master. You just don't get that much 'fizz' on vinyl, especially when combined with heavy compression & limiting. Its a laws of physics thing, rather than a this-or-that piece of kit thing.

I may be wrong, that's why I was goading the 'heavyweights' to chime in!

You may have to accept that if you want this song on vinyl, you're going to have to make some sacrifices.

[opcode66]

The quality of the transducer absolutely has an effect on the ability of that system to trace or represent some signals on disc. That has nothing to do with what is physically possible to represent. In other words, absolutely there is a difference in what an SX cutterhead can trace and what the Vinyl Recorder (two tweaters on a frame) cutterhead can represent.

The quality of the engineering and manufacturing in an SX goes light-years beyond what comes on a VR.

[handcut]

Nobody is disputing that fact, of course there will be difference. The VR dynamic cutterhead and the Neumann SX heads are apples & oranges. That is not to say the VR head isn't capable of excellent results in favourable conditions. However, the question remains: would it be possible to cut that master directly to plastic (or even lacquer), above standard reference level, without distortion?

All I am saying is that I doubt it would be possible on any system, with that master. Prove me wrong, please. If I had access to a different cutter system I'd be trying to prove myself wrong! There's not many things in this life more rewarding than being proven wrong.

EDIT: apologies, I've re-read the whole thread and there's no mention of the OP wanting to cut above standard level, only at a higher level overall.