$40 mystery lathe!

[timefraud]

Hey y’all, I’m new here but thought maybe one of you more experienced cutters would know what this machine is so I could start researching it. There are no model names or numbers anywhere on it other than the astatic corp crystal cutter. Also there appears to be a loose piece of plastic where the cutting needle is held in place, does it serve a purpose?

Please fill me in if you know what this thing is or have any model specific pointers! Thanks

Nick from Oakland

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[timefraud]

Also found a few diagrams inside

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[emorritt]

The turntable mechanism was manufactured by the General Industries of Elyria, OH, but has been modded by the manufacturer of this unit. Usually the pickup arm is mounted where their I/O and control panel is located. It looks like a knockoff of a Montgomery Ward unit, but it isn't the same as a MW unit. If there are no markings on the stickers or the outer cabinet, it's a mystery. The electronics and schematic look generic; just about any amp with appropriate switching and wiring could be used for this type of unit back in the day.

[timefraud]

Thanks for getting back emoritt! The closest lathe I was able to find to my unit is this Airline Recordio that sold on Reverb a while back:
https://reverb.com/item/9932895-airline-recordio-1950s-record-cutter-lathe?show_sold=true
Still haven't found the exact manual but I found one for a similar wilcox gay unit.

Any idea if the record level bulb could be replaced with some kind of meter to measure input volume? I've searched around but haven't found evidence of someone doing this.

Also if there's a place where basic tips for using these old suitcase lathes are compiled somewhere online please point me in the right direction!

[dobidy]

Possibly it is a an Airline Disc Recorder 15GAA-3969A, like mine

https://www.paperalcove.com/products/wards-airline-disc-recorder-with-radio-owners-guide-service-manual-15gaa-3969a-montgomery-ward

I have schematics in storage with this unit. I can dig them up. Mine cost about $10 on ebay.

My unit is exactly like yours, functioning but needs an overhaul/cleaning and and new cutting needle.

I am not working on this project at the moment as I have a Wilcox Gay unit that is working better.

[timefraud]

So I made my first cut from a song on the radio and it is nothing but noise/static. I can hear audible sounds through the head and the grooves look like a record but when I play it back nothing is at all like what I hear on the radio or head. I made a post in the newbie section to try to tackle this and would appreciate any help here or there.

[emorritt]

What you have is more than likely an Airline (Montgomery Ward brand) model 15GAA-3696A. I haven't seen a schematic online that is complete, but the closest model, 15GAA-3967C (which is different) you can get a schematic for here:

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/Resources/167/M0011167.htm

Click the eyeball to look at the schematic online and the floppy disc to open and save the document. Again, it's not the same unit - different construction and different components, but it's very similar. You asked about replacing the volume indicator lamps. That part of the schematic in your unit is torn. If you look in the upper left of the 3967C schematic, you will see the volume indicators. These are more than likely the same as in your unit and they're probably the NE-51 nixie lamps in the parts list of the 3967C schematic. New replacements are available here:

https://normanlamps.com/ne-51-b1a.html

However, as others have mentioned, it could be that your cutting stylus is bad or the cutter head is bad. You say you hear music from the cutter - is it clear or does it sound distorted? If the sound coming from the head is clear, it's more than likely your needle. You mentioned that the radio works. If there is no loud hum, chances are that the electronics are OK. If there is, you should re-cap the unit as discussed before. Since this is a pre-1952 unit, both your cutter and pickup are most likely rochelle salt and not ceramic. In that case, both would need service. You can send them to West-Tech to be rebuilt here:

http://www.west-techservices.com/p2.htm

The other schematic someone posted has a magnetic cutter. You cannot interchange magnetic for crystal, as the crystal units like the X-26 required plate voltage and were rated at 180VRMS - a lot of juice. Magnetic cutters used much less. A crystal on a magnetic device wouldn't make noise at all, but a magnetic on a crystal device would more than likely burn up in seconds, with that much voltage on the coil. You clearly have a crystal X-26, not a magnetic M-41 which was also used in some G.I. turntable assemblies with cheaper amplifiers.

[timefraud]

Thanks again emorritt, those links are very helpful.

I would say the sound from the head is distorted especially at high volumes.

I'm going to start by replacing the wax capacitor. I only see one in there, right in the middle. It is a .1uf 200vdc. Is it ok to replace these with non polarized film capacitors? Luckily we have a pretty wild old electronics store in Berkeley that will probably have one. From what I've read i should probably leave the disk capacitors alone? Is there anything else I should replace that I'm not seeing?

Also wondering if there is a source for a needle. I'm not seeing any links for buying one on the west tec site. All the manuals I've found say that the needle should have a flat side so it mounts properly but mine is totally round on the mounting end, pointed on the cutting end.

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[emorritt]

One thing with crystal cutters is don't overload them. If the sound from the head seems clear at first, then gets distorted as you turn up the volume, you're overdriving it and could damage it. If your neon level indicators aren't working, be careful. Also, you can't replace the neon lamps with a meter - you're working with plate voltage to drive the crystal cutter that would fry a VU meter instantly.

I forgot to ask, have you had all the tubes checked? A bad tube can cause problems. Maybe that electronics store you mentioned might have a working tube tester. Tubes are still readily available, new old stock (NOS). If the radio plays clearly through the speaker and there isn't a noticable 60 cycle hum, the electronics are OK and I wouldn't replace anything. After looking at the underside of the chassis, this unit was designed using higher wattage resistors in the interstages instead of capacitors, which was an option of the time.

Again, you can use non-polarized metal-foil polypropylene caps from justradios.com for interstage caps (between tubes) but not the filter stack (output); those have to be electrolytics. I take a Sharpie and mark the end of the new cap with a stripe to indicate where the negative end should be, if new high-voltage electrolytics were to become available again. If the unit isn't humming/buzzing you don't need to replace anything. Some tube amps have a very low level background hum, but barely noticable. It shouldn't be noticable when listening to records or playing the radio. This link has good information on capacitors and replacing them in vintage amps:

https://www.justradios.com/captips.html

What are you planning on cutting? Plastic or lacquer? Lacquer will give you the best results but some cut on plastic Solo picnic plates and get something of a decent recording. Other plastic blanks are availble as well. Here are two suppliers of plastic blanks and styluses:

https://www.diamond-cutting-stylus.com/

https://www.myshank.com/en/

Lacquers are expensive, as are cutting needles. Newly made lacquers and styluses are sold here:

http://www.apollomasters.com/

I'm not sure what happened to Apollo; they only list master discs, but they should have what are called 'reference lacquers' or 'dubs' available as well, which are cheaper. You have to ask for them. A while back I tried to order some two-hole dubs (I do a lot of demonstrations at schools and museums with old equipment) and they said their punch was broken. It's been a while, so they should be able to make two-hole discs now, but you'll have to ask. They also used to sell blanks in smaller quantities such as 5, 10, 15, etc. but I'm not sure if they will do this any more. A standard carton is 25. Last I heard, their cutting styluses were over $100; I guess if people are bent on cutting plastic and willing pay over $200 for a diamond stylus, they're trying to catch up. They won't post their prices, so you have to e-mail for a quote.

What you describe as a cutting stylus is not. A proper cutting stylus looks like this:

http://www.capcomm.ca/Presto-6N/PrestoStylus.jpg

You might have a stylus meant for embossing, but it sounds like just a steel playback needle. The flat on the shank of a cutting stylus faces the cutting head's setscrew and the flat cutting face of the jewel tip faces the rear of the cutting head when installed properly. What you need for cutting with your machine is a short shank cutting stylus. If all you can get are long shank parts, you can cut it to length with a hefty wire cutter, then file the end smooth. Also, just tighten the setscrew until it feels snug - don't crank on it because you can damage the crystal in the cutter or pickup if you force it.

Also, just FYI, I would be careful buying "NOS" jewel cutting styluses on eBay, as they may or may not be good and are usually priced more than they're worth. Occasionally you may see some steel cutting styluses come up; these may or may not be usable, but usually don't go for a premium price. Lacquers on eBay are also "iffy" - old lacquers may be too dry to cut. When everything is set up properly with a good needle and a decent blank, cutting should be nearly silent.

[timefraud]

Thanks for all the help emmoritt!

As far as overloading it goes, should the record level light only flash at the loudest parts? I'm unsure how to tell what to loud is.

I ended up having a tube that wasn't glowing and confirmed it was bad by testing it for continuity. There should be some new ones arriving tomorrow.

I don't know what I'm planning to cut or rather I don't know what I can successfully cut with an X-26. I ordered a couple recordiopoint needles for cheap on ebay. Can I cut/emboss picnic plates with that set up? I read that the x-26 isn't heavy enough to use on polycarbonate plastics. I have access to machining tools so I'd prefer to cut and drill my own blanks out of raw materials or plates rather than buy lacquers. Do you know what materials this set up is capable of working with?

I imagine I will end up needing to get the Astatic head rebuilt but figure I may as well try it first and see if replacing the blown tube solves some of my problems.

thanks again

-Nick

[emorritt]

This link:

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/Resources/1%20...%20011167.htm

contains the entire manual for that recorder, which is similar to yours and describes how the volume indicator works. The "peak" lamp should only flash on peaks, not remain on constantly. Otherwise, you're overloading the head. The manual states that the lower lamp should remain on constantly, with the upper flashing on peaks of volume.

Yeah, I don't think an X-26 could handle embossing vinyl or hard plastic blanks. These machines were all designed for lacquer discs only. These included aluminum base, glass base or fiber base (heavy paper). Hansa Plastics used to make embossable plastic discs, which required a special tungsten carbide stylus. I had some of those years ago - I'll try to find them and if I still have them I can send them to you; I don't have use for them. You would use these on something like a picnic plate. The glossy, smooth side would be very similar to what Hansa made years ago. I also think there's a guy not far from here that makes embossing needles as well. A lot of dictation equipment used embossing discs, but aside from the SoundScriber, the center holes were funky and wouldn't work on a standard turntable.

Yes, if you had a bad tube that would cause major issues.

[piaptk]

Emorrit, i would love to check out those embossing discs... ive never seen them.

I sell sapphire embossing needles (www.recordlatheparts.com) and Farmer John sells tungsten embossing needles.

[emorritt]

I'll have to dig through some boxes I haven't touched in years; I don't think I have the discs any more, but I think I still have the embossing points. They're very small and even with a shorter shank than a standard short shank recording stylus. I think they were only intended for heads like the X-26 or M-41. Last time I saw them they were rusty, but still good usable items. I'll see what I can find. The recording discs were very much like the Edison dictation product - red plastic, but with a standard size center hole and standard size drive pin hole. I also recall some bumps in a pattern near the center of the disc that looked like Braille. Never looked up the symbols to see what they might mean.

I Googled Hansa and was surprised that they're still around. The company was started in 1959; just about the time home disc recording was becoming passé in favor of tape. It may have been an effort to keep supplying discs to home users that weren't as expensive as aluminum coated discs were becoming. I recall using them when I was in college and the recordings were not too bad. It was on a G.I. turntable unit I had with an X-26 in the recording arm. I didn't have a crystal head amplifier, so I was driving it with a solid state MW guitar amp with a matching transformer to get the 180VRMS to drive the head.

[piaptk]

Interesting... i have some diamond and sapphire embossing points that i got from Ernie Capps stash via Len... they dont sork on plastic... i should try them on soundscriber and Edison Red Diamond discs.. be good to find a use for them...

[timefraud]

Thanks again for the info! I would love to check out those blanks if you find them. I got some new tubes in there and now the mic input/PA function works. The radio sounds great as well. Cuts are still just static so I took head out and mailed it off to West Tech.

Upon further inspection i think the needle is the original "ast-a-loy" I also ordered a pair of recordiopoints for 10 bucks. Not sure if they will fit.

The solo plates I got are pretty flimsy. I'd say close to a flexidisc. If anyone has any pointers for stiffer materials to cut with what I have i'd appreciate it. Also hat do people use to cut the edges off of solo plates?

Thanks for all the help, I'll report back when Gil sends back my x26 cartridge

[emorritt]

You can cut the flared edges of the plates off with a pair of scissors. Not pretty, but the disc will then lay flat on the turntable. Recordiopoints will fit the cutting head, but will most likely be damaged if not cutting lacquer. I found the embossing styli and am still looking for the Hansa discs; again, not sure if I still have them. Will try to post a pic of the point on the embossing styli - they could even be for a SoundScriber, but they did fit an X-26 and worked fine when I was in college years ago.

[timefraud]

You can cut the flared edges of the plates off with a pair of scissors. Not pretty, but the disc will then lay flat on the turntable. Recordiopoints will fit the cutting head, but will most likely be damaged if not cutting lacquer. I found the embossing styli and am still looking for the Hansa discs; again, not sure if I still have them. Will try to post a pic of the point on the embossing styli - they could even be for a SoundScriber, but they did fit an X-26 and worked fine when I was in college years ago.

I found a post about a wal-Board Tools 8 1/2 in. Circle cutter normally used for cutting circles in drywall. I'm going to try one of those for cutting plates. I'd love to see the embossing styli and know what the brand name is so I could try to track one down. I wonder if that might open up some possibilites for different materials.

Also I've been compiling the information you and other have been sharing with me plus what I've found in my searches to put in the wiki so that all this help from y'all will lead to something a little more permanent. Thanks again! Now I must wait for my head to return

[piaptk]

Embossing styli are available for polycarbonate at www.recordlatheparts.com

I would use an Olfa rotary circle cutter for plates. I think a drywall hole cutter is overkill for such floppy plastic.

For the center hole, get a 9/32” hollow punch and rubber mallet

[timefraud]

Embossing styli are available for polycarbonate at http://www.recordlatheparts.com

I would use an Olfa rotary circle cutter for plates. I think a drywall hole cutter is overkill for such floppy plastic.

For the center hole, get a 9/32” hollow punch and rubber mallet

Thanks for the link, but I was under the impression that you can’t emboss polycarbonate with an x 26 since you can’t change the angle of the needle and the head isn’t heavy enough?

[piaptk]

Tungsten and sapphire embossers are very different in angle and weight. Tungsten needs a severe angle and lots of weight.

But With sapphire embossing cones, you use the same angle as cutting (2-3 degrees back)... and not much more weight. But if you need more weight, just tape more weight to the top of the head.

I havent used one of those machines in over a decade, but i see no reason why you cant emboss with it. The bigger question is not weight and angle, but does it have enough power to scratch the hard plastic.